Feeling guilty for considering shoes

[Gloi]

Before shoeing it's worth trying Keratex or maybe Hoof Armor, which I've never used but read good things about

I've used hoof armor all this year and found it really good. Stopped me needing boots this summer as it slowed the wear rate on his feet. Not using it currently as I'm not doing many miles, more in indoor school due to me being a wuss in bad weather ?. I'll put it on again in spring when I start hacking more again .
They are having production problems at the moment though so supplies are hard to get. Fortunately I bought plenty when supplies came in.

 

[ycbm]

Personally I would just shoe the horse and see how she does.

I understand why you are saying this and if the horse had never been capable on stones I might say the same. But going backwards in ability like this can be a sign of many things, none of them good, and personally I'd want to find out what had happened before making a decision to nail on a pound of steel.
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[criso]

Am I reading that right? A boot seller told you that your horse had too great a thickness of hoof wall?

If so, that's an astonishing thing to suggest.
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Doesn't surprise me. It's seems quite common in the barefoot community to suggest that it's your horse's hoof that's the problem if it doesn't suit the boots.

I posted on the barefoot horse owners group UK on Facebook for some suggestions of boots when my horse had just gone barefoot and his feet were changing a lot. Also fronts are slightly different. Just wanted feedback on which suited different hoof types. The consensus was they should be trimmed to match and to fit the boots.

Fusions worked in the end as being forgiving with fit but weren't particularly grippy, ok though in normal mud.

 

[Gloi]

She was high on her heels before changing, the podiatrist has gradually reduced that

This stood out to me. Maybe her heels were higher than what looked ideal but they were comfortable for her. As you reduce the heel there is more weight on the rear of the hoof and it takes a lot of building up of the underlying structures to be comfortable with the change. Maybe she needs more work on surfaces that she is comfortable on to build up the caudal hoof.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Am I reading that right? A boot seller told you that your horse had too great a thickness of hoof wall?

If so, that's an astonishing thing to suggest.
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Yes, even have the email still. A list of what needed to change!

I’ve taken pics this morning. I don’t know what I’m looking at but looks like she has even less toe that before (considering she’s had 6 weeks off, 7 weeks since last trim)

December 2022
Front right


Front left

 

[dorsetladette]

The podiatrist is really highly spoke about in my area (and very knowledgeable) she said her feet look close to the perfect bare foot.. never gets any chips, she does have slightly high heels so I’ve been told that could put more pressure on her toe.

The podiatrist doesn’t understand why she’s footy. Diet is ideal. When we spoke, she said barefoot horses can feel their foot better than shod (she isn’t against shoes) and tend to favour soft ground. I have no idea if that’s true! She was clearly happier today when I allowed her to walk down the mud track.

I'd shoe. You may only need fronts.

There is a podiatrist in our area that is very highly spoken of by his 'followers' in reality he is horrendous and has crippled many horses (mine being one of them) but him and his followers call it 'transitioning' unfortunately for the horses he 'treats' most are unsound and visibly uncomfortable. I'm not saying this to slate all podiatrists but to highlight that just because someone is highly spoke off doesn't mean they are actually good at what they do or knowledgeable in there field. They can just talk a good talk.

Have a look on the farriers register for a qualified farrier in your area and have a chat with them. They may have other suggestions that your podiatrist hasn't thought of that doesn't mean shoes. But it wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion from someone educated.

FYI - 90% of my ponies have been barefoot (trimmed by a farrier) I've only had a couple that needed shoes and even then only fronts.

 

[Gloi]

What I'd consider doing if it was practical for you would be to take her in hand to a smooth road and ride her in walk on the tarmac providing she is comfortable on it , and do this on a regular basis. If not practical now, do it when there is more daylight in the spring.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

What I'd consider doing if it was practical for you would be to take her in hand to a smooth road and ride her in walk on the tarmac providing she is comfortable on it , and do this on a regular basis. If not practical now, do it when there is more daylight in the spring.

To get to a smooth/tarmac road I have to cross a 3-lane carriageway (hacking is far less than ideal, good job she is very good on traffic) and walk down an extremely steep and stony path for about a mile and a half, then we hit tarmac. I think I'd have to boot just to get down that part of the track, then take them off at the bottom.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thought it may be easier to compare like this. Annoyingly only have a photo with the tape measure in the way on the bottom photo.

 

[HelenBack]

I'm no expert compared to a lot of people on here but I am another person who found podiatrists / barefoot trimmers to be very rigid in their views about how trims should be rather than listening to the horse. The one podiatrist trimmed to all her ideals and the feet looked very pretty afterwards but my horse wasn't happy. Instead of trying to identify what would work for him she adjusted the trim to be even more to her ideals and made the horse less happy again! We'd already had a fairly lengthy discussion in which I'd aired my reservations so she didn't listen to the horse or the owner. She didn't get to trim him again!

After trying a few different people I ended up with my current farrier who trims according to my horse's needs. When he first went barefoot you couldn't do very much without upsetting him so the farrier would come quite often and do the least he could get away with and I'd tidy in between. One time he did go for it a bit too much and the horse was really quite sore afterwards but the farrier took that on board and didn't do it again. Now my horse has been barefoot for longer his feet have grown tougher and the farrier can do more without upsetting him. He still makes a point of asking me how the horse is after the trim though and would look to do things differently if there was a problem.

So that's a bit of a long winded way of saying I wonder if there's something about the current trimming approach that isn't working for your horse. If you were generally happy with your farrier is it worth chatting with him and seeing if he has any thoughts? Once you get over your embarrassment he'd hopefully be happy to take you back on if you thought that was for the best.

All of that said I don't think there'd be anything wrong with putting shoes on if you can't make the horse comfortable barefoot or find any suitable boots. I've found doing loads of walking on tarmac has been helpful but it sounds like your hacking is tricky and I do agree that boots can be treacherous on certain surfaces. Scoots were about the best I found for grip but that depends if the fit of them suits your horse, and definitely without you having to trim the feet to suit them! My worry if you persist and can't get her comfortable is that she'll come to associate work with pain and will also start moving badly to compensate for the pain and then make things worse. Sometimes I think we get stuck with our ideals but just have to do what's best for the individual horse in its own specific situation.

 

[SEL]

I've been on the end of 'the hooves are the problem' when trying to find boots - despite clearly telling them we had x rays, the pony had a lot of body issues including a check ligament strain and was growing the hoof she needed at that point in time. If we'd brought her heels down it would have crippled her because she was compensating for the tight ligament. As that slowly healed and I led her out on tarmac the hooves changed shape.

Are you getting a heel first landing on normal flat ground (yard concrete for instance)?

The angle has definitely changed in that last photo you've posted and I'm trying to squint at the photo and work out if the angle coming down from the coronet band is consistent because it looks a bit off - not sure if its angle of picture though

 

[Caol Ila]

Once you get over your embarrassment he'd hopefully be happy to take you back on if you thought that was for the best.

Aye, this was me. I'd only tried the trimmer because farrier, who's work I really rated, would not go to Hermosa's yard (it was too far off his beat), and I liked what he said. She was okay after the first trim, but he didn't take a lot off because she was not very cooperative. I thought I would streamline my horses and try him on Fin, breaking one of my horsey rules - if something works, don't fix! I felt pretty stupid. He was hobbling afterwards, and he'd been rock crunching the day before. That was when my boot exploded but he happily carried on trotting up rocky trails.

Still, might've been a one off bad day so he did Hermosa a second time. She was more cooperative and ended up being footy on rocks as well, when she had not been before. Oy. Still, not as sore as Fin, but she has very cupped shape feet so it might not have affected her as much.

I asked the lovely farrier if he would take me back. Thankfully, he did!

I didn't take pictures, but the biggest difference, to my totally inexpert eye, was that the trimmer took a lot off the toe, nearly taking it down to the white line. He also removed more wall all around with the nippers. The farrier hardly uses the nippers and I could see that he left way more wall.

But I've had farriers balls up feet as well. The one who did my old horse (who was only barefoot behind) at a previous yard took off all the wall, right to the white line, and she was very lame. The vet advised that he only tidy up the wall with the rasp and not go wild with the nippers, and his response was that she needed to be shod behind.

My experience with barefoot horses is n = 2.5, but I can't say that I've seen them wearing the toe down too much themselves with normal riding (that includes hacking on rocky terrain) and turnout.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Are you getting a heel first landing on normal flat ground (yard concrete for instance)?

Yes, she is landing heel first. She was trotting and cantering across the rock solid field this morning (cringe) but didn’t look footy or uncomfortable.

I have sent pictures to my previous physio who is quite clued up on barefoot. She said they look good, and nothing there says they should be sore or uncomfortable. I said about pads and she said she’d be more inclined to xray the feet - as she shouldn’t really need pads as well as the boots.

I might post on the barefoot Facebook page and see if anyone has any advice.

 

[ycbm]

Apart from the sole shots the photos aren't really at the right angles to be sure what we are seeing. The camera really needs to be down on the floor, with side on and front on shots.

However one thing is clear and that is that she has faster growth of the foot at the very centre of the toe than she does of the heel or quarters. You can see how the growth ring dips at the front. This could be a sign of metabolic issues, which I think is the most likely cause. If it is metabolic issues causing the uneven growth then that would also account for the sole sensitivity.

Being utterly truthful with yourself, how much weight (her own, not yours) is she carrying? I would be tempted to test her for EMS, which if you catch it while she is young will be a whole lot easier to deal with than if you get a critical laminitis attack first.
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[ycbm]

For those people who would go straight to shoes rather than try to work out why a horse which used to be capable on stones no longer is, I've come up with these lists.

Relatively harmless.

The horse is doing more work.
The horse is doing less work or less of the right work.
The weather has changed the ground conditions of the riding or turnout.
This list is not exhaustive.

In these situations it's safe for the owner, if they can't or don't want to change the work, to shoe the horse if they can't or don't want to boot it. (Though it will always be preferable to remove them for 3 months of the year.)

Not harmless at all.

Very early laminitis from grass or feed sugars, where sole sensitivity is the only symptom.
EMS
Cushings, where sole sensitivity is often the very first and only symptom and which is increasingly being found in much younger horses than expected.
Protein absorption problems leading to weak feet.
Gut inflammationt/leaky gut syndrome.
Laminitis from poisoning or infection.
This list is not exhaustive.

To go straight to shoes will mask all of these, possibly resulting in a much worse problem later down the line.
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[Gloi]

Apart from the sole shots the photos aren't really at the right angles to be sure what we are seeing. The camera really needs to be down on the floor, with side on and front on shots.

However one thing is clear and that is that she has faster growth of the foot at the toe than she does of the heel. You can see how the growth ring dips at the front. This could be a sign of metabolic issues, which I think is the most likely cause. If it is metabolic issues causing the uneven growth then that would also account for the sole sensitivity.

Being utterly truthful with yourself, how much weight (her own, not yours) is she carrying? I would be tempted to test her for EMS, which of you catch it while she is young will be a whole lot easier to deal with than if you get a critical laminitis attack first.
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Then again it might just be that the toes are growing faster because they are being loaded more due to a weak caudal hoof.

 

[Fransurrey]

I have been in a similar situation. My boy has fantastic feet to look at, but over time became sluggish and intermittently choosing softer ground. He has chronic thrush due to underlying conditions, so after trying different hoofboots (with varying degrees of, but never complete, success), I had him shod on the fronts a couple of months ago. The boots I think would be ideal don't go large enough and needed to know if it was his feet or something else. I'm very experienced with barefoot horses and hoof boots, but I won't be evangelical about it. As an unexpected bonus, I have found it easier to keep hoof clay in as I can poke the cotton wool under the shoe rim, so his thrush is actually better managed with shoes!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Being utterly truthful with yourself, how much weight (her own, not yours) is she carrying? I would be tempted to test her for EMS, which of you catch it while she is young will be a whole lot easier to deal with than if you get a critical laminitis attack first.

Sorry for the useless pictures. Will try and take some more later when I’m not rushing about.

She wasn’t over weight 7 weeks ago when I stopped riding, she looked fab.. but she has now got a belly since having the time off. No fat pads. She’s been naked so extremely fluffy. Although I can feel her ribs, although just about now.

She is getting ad-lib hay because of her liver. Makes it harder to manage.

The horse is doing more work.
The horse is doing less work or less of the right work.
The weather has changed the ground conditions of the riding or turnout.
This list is not exhaustive.

When I first backed her we were only doing stoney tracks probably once a week, as she got fitter It was more twice or three times a week down the stoney track and this was when she started to get footy. I guess I upped her workload and noticed she was struggling.

Someone else has also said she looks to have thin soles, but would need X-rays to confirm.

 

[ycbm]

Then again it might just be that the toes are growing faster because they are being loaded more due to a weak caudal hoof.

In that case I would expect to see slower growth at the heel with a pronounced dip of the growth lines at the heel. I'm not seeing that, though the photo is a bad angle. I'm seeing the faster growth only in a very narrow band at the dead centre of the toe, not involving the quarters, and I'd expect to see that only on a metabolic horse.

 

[ycbm]

She is getting ad-lib hay because of her liver.

What's wrong with her liver?
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[nutjob]

A liver problem and especially if the horse was given steroids to manage this could potentially impact the feet. I had one with a serious liver problem which was not diagnosed promptly and resulted in a number of symptoms which resolved when the liver was treated.

If this is a factor and the liver is now OK the feet may resolve over time and may just need some temporary help.

I would anyway get xrays of the feet. They don't cost too much and will give you a baseline to work from if you have problems in the future, especially if you plan to keep the horse for any length of time.

 

[ycbm]

I've searched you posts and she had significant liver damage recently. I would guess this is all related, and in any case I don't think you can tell until she's grown a new foot with the liver working properly. In that case I would certainly be inclined to shoe for a few months to make her comfortable.
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[Hormonal Filly]

What's wrong with her liver?
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I thought I added that to the original post, apologies. She became flat to ride a few months back, vet came out and was happy with her movement but bloods showed significant liver damage a couple of months ago.

Switched fields, added milk thistle and vitamin E, ‘re’ bloods taken a few weeks ago which showed a massive improvement. Not sure how long she had the liver damage, she started to get quiet/flat around June time when she moved onto different grazing.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Thanks all. Much appreciated.

A liver problem and especially if the horse was given steroids to manage this could potentially impact the feet

Luckily she never had steroids, but I didn’t realise liver could affect her feet. We suspect she started eating the toxins around April-June time and that’s when the liver took a hit, which also makes sense for her symptoms feet wise.

I’ll message my old farrier and go from there. Fingers crossed he forgives me!

 

[eahotson]

I find the barefoot people can be evangelical .I tried a podiatrist and barefoot for my old boy.He hated it.The relief on his face when his shoes went back on had to be seen to be believed.
New girl is barefoot.She is perfectly happy.She is trimmed by my farrier.He told me once that he had done some podiatry training to see what all the fuss was about.Basically, he said, they trim the foot the way he does when he is not going to put a shoe on.

 

[sbloom]

I had a client whose horse became metabolically more difficult to manage after liver damage, she was much more prone to low grade laminitis.

 

[sbloom]

I find the barefoot people can be evangelical .I tried a podiatrist and barefoot for my old boy.He hated it.The relief on his face when his shoes went back on had to be seen to be believed.
New girl is barefoot.She is perfectly happy.She is trimmed by my farrier.He told me once that he had done some podiatry training to see what all the fuss was about.Basically, he said, they trim the foot the way he does when he is not going to put a shoe on.

Might be true for him, not true for everyone. Some farriers do an amazing job, but what they often can't or don't to is work through the sort of list that ycbm came up with above, working out why they've gone footy and trying to help fix it. Again not all farriers but they're much more likely to put shoes back on as the main option.

 

[SEL]

Liver would do it. In fact I had bloods taken earlier this year when mine was funny walking out and I spotted mare's tail growing in the paddock. Bloods all fine but she's my PSSM horse and has had odd issues in the past so I'm never entirely convinced everything is ok when her bloods are fine - just that we haven't run the right test yet

If you think the sensitivity has got worse then its worth just running the bloods again. Took forever to get liver enzymes back to normal for mine and we had some cracking event lines that year.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Liver would do it. In fact I had bloods taken earlier this year when mine was funny walking out and I spotted mare's tail growing in the paddock. Bloods all fine but she's my PSSM horse and has had odd issues in the past so I'm never entirely convinced everything is ok when her bloods are fine - just that we haven't run the right test yet

If you think the sensitivity has got worse then its worth just running the bloods again. Took forever to get liver enzymes back to normal for mine and we had some cracking event lines that year.

I can’t find any studies to say liver damage affects the feet. Don’t think there is much about it.

She’s due another test just after Christmas, so fingers crossed. But she is feeling WAY better in herself. So much more life and doesn’t look half asleep all the time.

I’ve just seen on the invoice my independent vet has put his prices up (although he travels about 2 hours to me, but he does tie it in with others in the area) making it just over £160 a time for examination and travel. Making each blood test £277. Might have to look at trying a local vet.

 

[Rowreach]

I’m following this thread with interest anyway because there are some very useful posts on here that will be a great resource for other people, but I’d just like to say how lovely it is when someone asks a question, takes all the responses on board, answers all the queries and gives extra information and doesn’t get antsy about any of the replies.

OP I hope you get to the bottom of this and your horse is able to work happily and comfortably whatever you decide is best to do, short and long term.