Feeling guilty for considering shoes

[Hormonal Filly]

I’m following this thread with interest anyway because there are some very useful posts on here that will be a great resource for other people, but I’d just like to say how lovely it is when someone asks a question, takes all the responses on board, answers all the queries and gives extra information and doesn’t get antsy about any of the replies.

OP I hope you get to the bottom of this and your horse is able to work happily and comfortably whatever you decide is best to do, short and long term.

Thank you, and thank you to everyone who has taken the time to comment. Will keep it updated.

The forum is such a helpful place ? hopefully the thread may help someone else in the future.

 

[criso]

I can’t find any studies to say liver damage affects the feet. Don’t think there is much about it.

She’s due another test just after Christmas, so fingers crossed. But she is feeling WAY better in herself. So much more life and doesn’t look half asleep all the time.

I’ve just seen on the invoice my independent vet has put his prices up (although he travels about 2 hours to me, but he does tie it in with others in the area) making it just over £160 a time for examination and travel. Making each blood test £277. Might have to look at trying a local vet.

That does seem quite steep. When I was having problems with raised liver enzymes, it wes nearer£120. About £60 for the tests, £40 callout and a fee for taking the blood. Call it £150 with increases in the last couple of years No exam fee. Could reduce the callout by sharing a visit or at the same time as jabs/teeth so that was highest.

In addition to vit e and milk thistle I also fed mycosorb which seemed to help. We never knew what caused it but with multiple horses at the same yard but a changing hay supply and different feeds, something in the fields we couldn't identify was as far as we got

 

[ycbm]

I can’t find any studies to say liver damage affects the feet. Don’t think there is much about it.

Toxins affect the feet, which is why mares that fall to clear the afterbirth can get acute laminitis. I would suspect either that the toxins that attacked the liver attacked the feet too or that the poorly functioning liver failed to break down other toxins that then attacked the feet.
.

 

[ycbm]

Making each blood test £277

I paid £200, I think, for visit, exam and full range blood test including liver in July this year. He sounds very toppy.
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[criso]

I paid £200, I think, for visit, exam and full range blood test including liver in July this year. He sounds very toppy.
.

Also I wouldn't expect to pay for an exam if it's a follow up test for an ongoing issue, just for taking the sample and callout then any lab fees.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Could reduce the callout by sharing a visit or at the same time as jabs/teeth so that was highest.

I had a couple of bad experiences with big equine chain vets in my area, so started to use this independent vet a few years back.. but I’ll see what’s recommended locally. I think bloods on a zone day with a local vet, only has a £10 call out charge.

 

[eahotson]

Might be true for him, not true for everyone. Some farriers do an amazing job, but what they often can't or don't to is work through the sort of list that ycbm came up with above, working out why they've gone footy and trying to help fix it. Again not all farriers but they're much more likely to put shoes back on as the main option.

Fair enough but the podiatrists I personally met were not impressive and it was my decision, not the farriers,to put shoes back on him.Something I have never regretted.

 

[nutjob]

I had a couple of bad experiences with big equine chain vets in my area

I've had some very bad experiences with a large vet practice so I do sympathise if you just can't trust them. However, if you have an emergency like a colic, a wait of at least 2 hours is a long time so you might want to look at your options.

 

[criso]

I had a couple of bad experiences with big equine chain vets in my area, so started to use this independent vet a few years back.. but I’ll see what’s recommended locally. I think bloods on a zone day with a local vet, only has a £10 call out charge.

If it's just a blood test, there's not so much to go wrong. I know a few people who use whichever vet is cheapest/convenient for things like vaccinations but have a preferred vet for when there are issues.

 

[Hollylee1989]

My horse wears equine fusion boots, our fields get quite slippy. Touch wood so far with the frost he walks confidently without slipping. Doesn't slip in them on the concrete either

 

[Boulty]

Was having a general chat with my trimmer the other day about many things (including a discussion on why my horse's feet will never/ should never look like a picture perfect "ideal" hoof due to his sidebone & the compensations he needs for that). We got onto the pitfalls of advising on trim & hoof balance from a photo when you don't know/ haven't seen the horse in person and so don't know it's soundness levels and how it moves. (I do sometimes send him pics asking for advice in between visits as his feet can be prone to chipping when it's dry & if left to their own devices huge chunks come away & then he becomes sore but obviously he's seen the horse in person and knows how he normally moves and how his feet generally look)

Anyhow due to the ground freezing & some of it being quite rutted mine is now in boots all around until it decides to unfreeze again as he wasn't happy & I worry these are exactly the kind of conditions that could make his sidebone angry (& also set off a chain reaction of undoing all the improvements we've just made!)

As a final aside my Welsh D's feet went to absolute rubbish after he starting having issues with his liver and it seemed to make his PPID and associated LGL more & more difficult to manage. It's one of a myriad of reasons I had him PTS. Your situation sounds a lot better than the one I was in but the liver issues could absolutely have weakened her feet & it may take growing in a new hoof capsule to fully have her as capable as before.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Was having a general chat with my trimmer the other day about many things (including a discussion on why my horse's feet will never/ should never look like a picture perfect "ideal" hoof due to his sidebone & the compensations he needs for that). We got onto the pitfalls of advising on trim & hoof balance from a photo when you don't know/ haven't seen the horse in person and so don't know it's soundness levels and how it moves. (I do sometimes send him pics asking for advice in between visits as his feet can be prone to chipping when it's dry & if left to their own devices huge chunks come away & then he becomes sore but obviously he's seen the horse in person and knows how he normally moves and how his feet generally look)

Anyhow due to the ground freezing & some of it being quite rutted mine is now in boots all around until it decides to unfreeze again as he wasn't happy & I worry these are exactly the kind of conditions that could make his sidebone angry (& also set off a chain reaction of undoing all the improvements we've just made!)

As a final aside my Welsh D's feet went to absolute rubbish after he starting having issues with his liver and it seemed to make his PPID and associated LGL more & more difficult to manage. It's one of a myriad of reasons I had him PTS. Your situation sounds a lot better than the one I was in but the liver issues could absolutely have weakened her feet & it may take growing in a new hoof capsule to fully have her as capable as before.

Thanks for sharing B, that’s really interesting. Sorry to hear about your Welshy. Waiting to hear back from my farrier about an appointment.

Did 15 minutes walk hack today on site (woodland, grass track and some downhill hardcore track) in her Flex boots. On the downhill hardcore track (no stones for majority of it) it has a high grass verge to the sides.

She is definitely desperate to get onto the grass verge, even in the boots. Once on the grass verge happily walks on comfortably even though the grass is rock hard. Yet going into the woodland is a steep hardcore track and she’s happy to walk down that, but no grass verge. She then wanted to trot on the spot on the solid grass, which makes me think her feet can’t be to sore. Unless the hogging verges is habit?

@ycbm and anyone else reading, would you be concerned she’s the same in the boots?

Only thing with Flex boots is the soles are quite thin on them (no pads)

 

[lilly1]

Similar boat. Mine went barefoot 3 years ago. Was doing great until the recent weather. A combination of days of rain and now hard frost has made her sore over rough ground. I might boot but think with the wet and muddy conditions may cause other problems. Shoes on at least for the winter I think for mine.

 

[TPO]

What about using pads, specifically EP pads? https://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/product/pair-eps-pads/

Highly recommend this website

https://hoofgeek.com/blog/

Especially these blogs

https://hoofgeek.com/boots-and-pads-for-rehabilitation/

https://hoofgeek.com/unsung-hero/


Re photos not telling the whole story. I agree, the whole horse has be considered holistically. Having said that what I thought I saw from the photos was that the horse is landing on his left side (medial aspect of off fore and lateral aspect of near fore). Those walls are more vertical and the sole shots showed more flare/loose connection/stretched WL.

You'd normally expect to see a deviation in the cornet band but it's hard to tell with the hair in the photos.

My completely not an expert opinion is that there might be *something* higher up. Have you noticed any change to movement or saddle fit?

A few years ago now but "leaky gut syndrome" was the diagnosis of the day for footy BF horses. Given that your horse has had bother with their liver there may be something to it worth investigating?

 

[HelenBack]

I did find that my lad didn't get on with Flex boots. The sole is thin and soft and meant to be similar to that of a barefoot shoe so while it's nice and flexible, it presumably doesn't offer as much protection as other boots. I liked the idea of them but my horse was definitely less comfortable in them than other boots, even with a slim pad in them.

Have you tried something like old macs with a 12mm pad in them. They're a bit more of a faff to put on but a fairly forgiving fit, reasonable grip for a hoof boot and my lad was super comfortable in them even when he first went barefoot and his feet were shocking.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Have you tried something like old macs with a 12mm pad in them.

Thanks all. Considered pads but never tried any. Might buy a pair just to see if there is any improvement. Interesting they have a much thinner sole than the Renegedes I had previously. I didn’t use them for long as they rubbed, so can’t remember if she was the same with them.

 

[HelenBack]

Definitely worth a go with pads I reckon, either the 12mm Easycare ones or the EPS ones TPO mentioned. They made a huge difference to my horse and other horses I know too ?.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Definitely worth a go with pads I reckon, either the 12mm Easycare ones or the EPS ones TPO mentioned. They made a huge difference to my horse and other horses I know too ?.

The flex are a good fit, but I’m not sure the 12mm pads will allow her hoof to fit and them to do up. Will give it a try!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Rather than spend £20 on a pair of EVA pads and a week delivery time.

If I call in the craft shop tomorrow, they do 10mm EVA sheets for half the price. Worth a try?

 

[HelenBack]

No I don't think the thicker pads will fit in the Flex boots sadly so you might have to look at getting a different boot. Sorry.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

No I don't think the thicker pads will fit in the Flex boots sadly so you might have to look at getting a different boot. Sorry.

Might be worth seeing 6mm pads fit. I’ve tried 4 different boots/brands now and all either rub or move. Flex are the only to stay put and not rub ?

 

[GinaGeo]

The 12mm pads almost certainly won’t work in Flex Boots, but 6mm likely will ?

Flex do sell their own pads too. But I haven’t used those.

 

[tyner]

"On the downhill hardcore track" you mention she is desperate to get on the grass verge.

Maybe she feels uncomfortable on that surface because she feels unstable or that she's vulnerable to slipping? And on the grass maybe she feels she has more purchase?

Did she slip on it before?

Maybe would indicate why you see somewhat uneven behavior on some hardy Stony surfaces but not others?

They are always trying to tell us something, it's such a trouble knowing what though!

 

[ycbm]

She is definitely desperate to get onto the grass verge, even in the boots.

What does she do if you don't let her?

On a stony surface, is she taking actual missteps?

I'm not sure from what you are describing if she is actually footie, feeling stones, or if this is just a balance issue.
.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

What does she do if you don't let her?

On a stony surface, is she taking actual missteps?

I’m rubbish at explaining and if I’m honest, I’m not sure which it is. I’ll try and take a video.

If I ask her to walk down the track she’ll walk on a few steps (normally) and then slow down to try to turn her neck left, body right and get on the right side grass verge. It could well be balance, yesterday I did ask her to continue walking down the track and she tried to get onto the left sided verge. I don’t like forcing her to do it because I’m worried she’s doing it for a reason so maybe I’ve not helped by allowing it.

Maybe she feels uncomfortable on that surface because she feels unstable or that she's vulnerable to slipping? And on the grass maybe she feels she has more purchase?

Maybe you’re right. She had a really nasty fall (she totally fell over, and was led on the floor, I fell and luckily just managed to avoid getting crushed. She managed to get up on her own but there was a lot of scrabbling) back in June It was not nice. She was clearly terrified after ?

It happened down a very steep downhill track but tarmac. A dog ran out from a parked car on our left, we were leading 2 others because my mare is probably the boldest. She just spooked and her legs went because it being steep and slippy, I guess. A lot of horses slip there anyway without the dog, especially shod ones. She had Renegede boots on. She’s also slipped a few times in the Flex boots going downhill if I’m honest.

She had the all clear back then, and the vet visited a few weeks ago and we did a trot up. He’s coming back in January.

Would she remember an incident like that from back then? Although she has tried to get to a verge on the flat and uphill (if there is one there)

 

[GinaGeo]

Yes - slipping can really affect them. They’re a prey animal and it can make them feel really quite vulnerable and certainly reluctant to repeat the experience.

Slipping on grass I’ve found is commonly balance and strength, as they learn how to do it and get stronger they improve.

Mine used to worry about walking down a tarmaced yard when he was shod after sliding down it like he was on skates. He used to walk a few steps, stop etc. He marches down there now unshod.

How is she if you lead her down that section? She is only four and balancing the extra weight of a rider might be too much?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

How is she if you lead her down that section? She is only four and balancing the extra weight of a rider might be too much?

Interesting. Thanks GG.

She does the same if being led, no difference. I led her out a few days ago. In summer her field was at the bottom of the track, she would pull me to the grass even on the flat. She rather walk on wet slippy grass than a hard track.

The track is quite uneven, but the grass is more flat. If only they could talk!

 

[TPO]

Interesting. Thanks GG.































She does the same if being led, no difference. I led her out a few days ago. In summer her field was at the bottom of the track, she would pull me to the grass even on the flat. She rather walk on wet slippy grass than a hard track.































The track is quite uneven, but the grass is more flat. If Only they could talk!

Ah right, didn't realise that was ridden. Sometimes going downhill moves the saddle and pinches shoulders resulting in a pottery stride. Could that be possible?

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Ah right, didn't realise that was ridden. Sometimes going downhill moves the saddle and pinches shoulders resulting in a pottery stride. Could that be possible?

Not sure if my post makes sense. I mean she does the same if she’s in hand or ridden, or long lined down it.

Saddle was checked 2 months ago, she is quite fluffy and put a bit on but the fit feels ok. Doesn’t make sense for her doing it in hand though.

This morning she turned around quickly in her hard standing pen and totally fell over, her right side just went from under her. Spoke to my vet who said as long as she’s sound, probably just slipped on the ice. (It was icy) Will see what she’s like later.

She’s so fresh, wouldn’t stand still tied up and was repetitively putting her legs over the fence (4ft fencing, she’s tied to string on the yard) so it would get stuck, then someone would help her free it.. then trotted off across the rock solid field, definitely didn’t look footsore.

Bit baffled by it. If her feet were sore, surely she wouldn’t want to trot around a solid frozen field.