FIELDS! A YO verses livery perspective

Whilst as a livery I hate not turning out, the rain this year has been exceptional. OP I can't help feeling that you're not being directive enough. By telling people to ration turnout or be realistic - you're always going to get some people who think it's fine to turnout. For example the argument about no grass in summer doesn't wash with me as I hate grass, beg my YO not to fertilise my field and would love to graze my fat pony on scrubland. By telling them to be sensible you are telling a group of people to police themselves, if one keeps turning out then others will etc.

My yard have days (when it's very wet) where they just write "no turnout" on the blackboard, on those days - them's the rules! There is a horsewalker (we pay extra for) so they can get a leg stretch. My yard also run short day turnout days when it's wet too which is about 8-12. My yard are very good, we tend to be getting them out quite a bit even through this wet weather.

One yard in our area has a rota and everyone is one 3.5 days turnout a week, with set days.

Maybe you need to make rules instead of suggestions, sounds like you're providing some nice alternatives just so long as they are useable (e.g. not everyone is scrapping to use the concrete pens at peak times like before and after work).
 
CupKake said:
If managed correctly, (which I can see may be difficult if owners works full time etc) then their costs shouldn't go up too much.
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What an interesting comment, founded on what ?.

In a year that has seen the most rainfall since records began, correctly managed grassland is grassland that is closed to stock and that includes horses. With the land not trashed, the cost in spring will be derv to harrow and roll, plus fertilizer if needed. Many fences will need attention as posts, especially hinge end gate posts will have been compromised by the wet ground. This done the land will be ready for many months of use.

Trashed land will need several sessions of harrowing/rolling and there will be plenty of paddocks that will need re-seeding and if that is the case they will be shut for the summer.

The trashed paddocks will recover by themselves of course, no cost involved for a wonderful field of docks and weeds. The real damage to the fields and the horses in them is about to be done, as the ground begins to dry out, this is when the horses will punch holes into very holding ground. The farriers and the vets will be kept busy. If we have the predicted cold snap, these paddocks, with foot deep holes in them, will freeze solid. Turn out on them and no vet will be needed, just the knackerman.

Of course horses need some time at liberty but common sense has to prevail in the conditions we are experiencing at the moment. I guess yard owners are never going to be able to please all their clients all of the time, most especially those yard owners who have clients with little or no understanding of the countryside, natures seasons and land management. No doubt the client sees grass growing on their lawn and expects the same from pasture with livestock on.
 
Starzaan said:
I am a YO, and I have to say, I wouldn't have a yard if I couldn't guarantee turnout all day every day throughout the year.

I have been a livery with restricted winter turnout, and I don't ever want to be responsible for doing that to people.

Yes my winter fields get trashed in the gateways, but they have hardcore on the worst bits and they're rested all summer. Land recovers more quickly than people think - within six weeks the worst of my fields will look lovely again.

I would rather have horses out with no grass and some hay to munch on than not out at all.
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This. You sound like a fab YO :D
 
I went to my current yard as it offered turnout during the day in winter. And for the past two years, farmer has been true to his word. But it's the Lake District - it rains - A LOT!!
So you can imagine how wet it is this year. MOST of the liveries have been sensible and either just turning out while they are mucking out, or in some days, doing half day turnout on the slightly better days. I've been doing a mixture of both, and on half days, I will drive to the yard at lunchtime to get them in. I totally understand why the turnout is restricted. But there are a couple of liveries who are totally taking the P. Turning out and then leaving them til late afternoon/evening. It's not fair on those of us who are being responsible. People need to accept that this year it's been exceptionally wet.
 
Sidney said:
As a fellow YO I am in exactly the same position. I cannot afford to let the fields get trashed - what it would cost me to recover them would outweigh any profits made.

For £25 per week my liveries get 1 acre each, their own stable, shared use of a large barn and feed room, secure tack room, 50 x 30 outdoor school, and access to off road hacking straight from the yard.

For those that say you shouldn't have livery's if you can't provide the grazing:

- The weather has been exceptional this year, and even my normally well draining paddocks have become a quagmire over the last few weeks. I even had to restrict turnout for a short period over the summer, which I have never had to do before.

- To buy an acre you are looking at spending between £2000 and £5000 depending on what part of the country you are in - so for £25 per week I think the liveries are getting a good deal.

- Any prospective livery is shown what grazing is available - if they do not think it is enough for their needs they need to find a yard with more, but should expect to pay more too.

Currently I have asked my liveries to bring in no later than 2pm, and insist that if there horses have a 'hoon', they go and walk in the skid marks. The reward will be quality 24/7 turnout over the summer mnths.

I have a school and offer this as alternative turnout. I also have a spare paddock that I have been saving for spring and will offer this to the liveries once the ground has dried up, but will be asking them to pay extra to use it.

Our fields still 'look' green, although are looking a bit sorry for themselves, but am hoping if we get a dry spell can run the harrow and roller over the poached bits.

Roll on spring!
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But what if they are in work?
 
It is a lot easier to offer decent amounts of turnout in certain parts of the country where there has been less rain (this year), or where the soil and drainage is less dire. We're on clay and the fields are just vile. I stabled all mine during the worst of it. I now have one back out 24/7- one of the others is on a yard where t/o has been restricted in fields, but has an indoor so gets t/o in there as well as lots of work. The final pony thinks fencing doesn't apply to him, so he's stuck in for his own safety until I can work out a fencing solution for him :cool: It's far from ideal, but what can you do? I have two horses on three acres at my place and didn't feel I could turnout during the worst of the weather without trashing it. It really is that bad.
 
As a livery i would want turnout 24/7.
If i kept my 4 y/o in all day he'd kill me and probably himself.
A horse belongs outside and i think its not nice depriving them of a few hours grass every day.

Mine is out approx 8-4 everyday, wind or rain. Only kept in if injured or ice,
 
This is the first year in 10 years our farmer has asked us to keep our horses off the land over winter. I of course respect this completely but can't help be a a bit peeved because he does NO maintenance on our farm, we hardly ever see him, and we have only 3 horses there on about 40 acres, how much damage can they do? But, it's his land, and I like it there, and the horses do have a nice yard to wander on so are not confined to a stable, so that's that.

We do have a small sacrifice paddock where we can get them out for 1-2 hours a day too so its not so horrible, but still not ideal
 
I'm a YO, and atm we are allowing 2-3 hours turnout until it dries up a bit more. ALL of my liveries (25 of them) have been amazing these last few months and have stuck to this, and 99% of them haven't even been turning out, just a day or 2 per week, as they want good grazing for 24/7 turnout in summer. They all have their own paddock so they look after it.

I have had in the past complete numpties, who have tried to turnout all day everyday, which is why I introduced a time limit. They either stick to this or go elsewhere. They do have fab facilties....indoor arena, outdoor arena, round pen and horse walker though, so the horses get plenty of variation.

If I were you I would have a chat to them and explain your reasons. If they don't like it, they have to find elsewhere.
 
I can understand it from both side but what if............ YO allows horses to go out every day in muddy fields and a horse pulls a tendon or similar would that be YOs fault or the livery for turning out against YOs advice?
 
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Why when folk want 24/7 turn out do they bother paying for stables ? honest question - if i could get grass livery for 15 quid a week i sure as hell would not be paying 30 quid a week for having a stable i had no intention of using.
 
Gingerwitch said:
Why when folk want 24/7 turn out do they bother paying for stables ? honest question - if i could get grass livery for 15 quid a week i sure as hell would not be paying 30 quid a week for having a stable i had no intention of using.
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Did you not read my thread earlier. If you want a school round here you have to have a stable too! :p


It's all very well saying don't turn out for longer than a few hours but most of us do have to go to work for 8 hours a day. I'm not quite sure that calling me a numpty for having to work FT is altogether fair :(
 
Gingerwitch said:
Why when folk want 24/7 turn out do they bother paying for stables ? honest question - if i could get grass livery for 15 quid a week i sure as hell would not be paying 30 quid a week for having a stable i had no intention of using.
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I would, just for tacking up in and if there were any injuries, also drying off for vet/farrier etc.
 
Gingerwitch said:
Livery for being stupid !
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Agreed!

I think it's dificult for YOs to please their liveries all year round if liveries want 24/7 turnout. If they are out in all weathers every day and fields are rotated, it's unlikely they will have good grazing in summer.

I think compromise from both sides is best option for YOs, liveries and horses. Not every horse wants to be out all day every day and some turnout is better than none.

Roll on dry weather (fingers crossed) :rolleyes:
 
Whilst I agree that some sense is needed for grazing the welfare of the horse MUST come first. If yards have adequate grazing for the amount of horses - often this is not the case why should any horse have to suffer being locked in 24/7! Yes if you are lucky enough to have an arena the average full time worker who has a horse may be able to manage 1/2 hour in the arena based on sharing the facilities with other liveries but what about yards that dont have facilities or older retired horses that can't be ridden?

Basically the choice comes down to the owner to ask before moving to a yard and make sure that the yard offers at the very least restricted winter turnout ie horses are allowed out for a few hours every day in either a paddock or if necessary hardstanding.

My full livery yard offers winter turnout for around 7 hours whatever the weather and yes the gateways are muddy and the fields are wet but none of the horses have mud fever and the fields recover in the spring because they arent overgrazed! At the end of the day it is the customer who decides what is acceptable based on their own horses needs - every horse has different needs but they all need exercise and fresh air to some degree!!
 
Evening all, I have just come across this thread and felt compelled to post. Firstly, I find it really disappointing that there are so many angry rants against yard owners, yet when yard owners post they seem to be politely asking for advice??
I am a yard owner - we have a yard of circa 90 liveries (mixture of full, part, diy and grazing) and a second yard of circa 30 (all assisted diy). I also have my own horses of differing ages and stages in their competitive careers, so I feel reasonably well qualified to post in response.
I am a turnout advocate - horses need to be horses for their sanity and well being and the riders safety. However, there are times where turnout is not always possible or the best course of action.
We operate a policy of minor grazing restrictions during the winter months and all liveries are advised of this prior to even taking a space at our yards. These turnout restrictions take the following form:
On days of heavy rain the horses stay in (same applies if rained heavily overnight and standing water in paddocks).
We try never to have more than one in day at a time
Over weekend or holiday periods, where owners are often more flexible with their time, we ask for any further compromise to be made wherever possible.

For our full livery clients we are obviously able to manage the grazing directly, but for our diy clients they have inclusive access to ad lib hay/ haylage and
straw so they never feel the financial burden of 'in day's. We also appreciate it is unreasonable to ask livery owners to come back midway through a working day to catch in again, so we offer this as a courtesy service.

We have large schools and lunge areas and a horse walker on the larger of the two yards.

We are not overstocked and have fairly light well draining land and this year our ground is saturated. This is exceptional weather, and not weather I would like to see again for farmers or horse owners!! These exceptional conditions do make it necessary for some compromise from yo, horse owner and horse!

We keep control of the turnout because it s much better to have all horses in, or all out - they will be much more settled. There are exceptions to every rule but I have considerable proof that the horse owners get much more wound up by turnout compromise than do the horses.

Without turnout restrictions our liveries will have to consider the following:
A later return to 24/7 turnout because the fields are going to take longer to recover
They may need to spend more tine walking a greater distance to summer fields while the damaged winter field recover. I am also thinking some yards will need to consider price increases to reflect the repair work (not the case for us)
We will have to use our hay fields for grazing this spring which will have a knock on in terms of the quantity of our own (historically) fantastic quality hay, and may mean buying in expensive hay of unknown origin
Fields that look green after heavy poaching might look great but often have a higher weed content and once they get established can impact further the grazing quality
It should also be said that turnout regardless of the ground conditions can cause bottomless ground which may see the increase in loss of shoes or worse in terms of injuries or strains - and then you have horses on permanent restriction - often alone!

I am also slightly puzzled by the putting out of hay in fields in very wet ground because there is no grass. Fair enough if your horses are on 24/7 turnout, but if your horse is familiar with a stable why would you turn it out to stand still huddled against the elements eating hay that gets wet, trampled and often left and paddled into a mess? Why not pop them out for an hours legs stretch while you muck out and then let them stand still eating hay in their comfy stable?
We have grass in our fields, but the horses all come and stand at the gate early on because they want to come in. Turning out for 8 hours or more might suit the horse owners routine, but the horses and fields will largely be thankful of less in the present climate!
I appreciate that there are some poor yard owners out there, but for those of us who do understand the land and the horses, please believe me when I say that we are not trying to make our clients lives difficult. We have the big picture in mind and in our case we adopt a policy of forewarned is forearmed. We talk constantly with our owners, circulate a monthly newsletter so that we can explain any alterations in routine. But as owners of horses, you have a responsibility too. Not all of the onus can be placed on the yo, so please stop haranguing us, there are lots of us who are trying to do our best!!
 
Re: op first post, I'd be happy with these alternatives, doesnt sound unreasonable at all. For me it's not about the actual 'grazing' it's about my horse having proper interaction with other horses and being able to express herd behaviour.
 
Can't quote on my phone, but in response to GW re grass livery and stables - I'll always have a stable because sod's law for me if I don't have one is the horse injures himself and needs one! If you saw his history with accidents you'd understand. He can be incredibly accident prone :mad:

I also like having somewhere that is my space to interact with much horse and I like giving him a thorough check over.

I feel I need to clarify what I said earlier. If there was no turnout at all, it would be a problem for me. I would like a livery yard that offers all year turnout and would not go to a yard where thus wasn't the case. I also tend to inspect grazing when I view to look at the state of it and check what the maintenance is. I think there are measures which can be put in place which to a degree can help keep grazing in good condition.

However, I also appreciate OP that the weather has been atrocious. My yo has just switched my boy to day time turnout which is from 8-3 ish because the field needed help. This I have no issue with, it is only if turnout is restricted completely.

I have re-read your post and can see you aren't taking turnout away completely, having some grazing turnout coupled with being loose in the school etc should be ok short term until it all picks up again.

Fwiw, I have had to manage my grazing before so I'm not a livery without any idea of what is involved. :)
 
Thanks all. Your comments have been super helpful.

My big worry, and I think its a valid one, is what will happen when it freezes??
The field will be an absolute death trap. While they think they are gaining a day or two now, without having to muck out or feed hay (there's still a fair bit of grass in the good parts), the poaching is tremendous. I wouldn't walk my horse across it.
 
Moobucket said:
Thanks all. Your comments have been super helpful.

My big worry, and I think its a valid one, is what will happen when it freezes??
The field will be an absolute death trap. While they think they are gaining a day or two now, without having to muck out or feed hay (there's still a fair bit of grass in the good parts), the poaching is tremendous. I wouldn't walk my horse across it.
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Well put a note up now - saying that in the event of a snow and ice turn out and bring in is at the owners risk and you will not be providing the service if you think it is dangerous to you or the horse.
 
I am not at all into horses being stabled for long periods (horse lives out) but I agree the weather is exceptionally awful this year, and to be fair you have done your best to offer solutions! I hear of YOs who restrict perfectly ok fields and then say you can't turn out on the school as it will ruin the surface!

I am not actually that bothered about my horse having grass or acres to run about in, would be happy with a small dry area like a yard with other horses and something to nibble. Would definitely prefer that to sloppy mud.

Your liveries probably don't know what being sensible with turnout means, I think you need to say '4 hours max turnout until further notice' or whatever time limits you feel are necessary. You've got to spell it out for some people and also I think you will have to offer to bring horses in etc as its not really fair on people who work all day to pay for this service when its you enforcing it.

I don't think you are being unreasonable at all, your liveries can find somewhere with more turnout if they want... Doubt they'll find it for cheap!
 
Moobucket said:
So last year all was well. We had some good frosts, a little rain, and the winter paddock held up brilliantly until we switched to the summer paddock.
THIS YEAR it's rained almost endlessly and my field, although it still has grass in it, and has a few tiny patches of dry, appears to be sliding down the hillside in an enormous slick of mud. I have road planing tracks in and out of the field which are getting destroyed and the field is very muddy at the bottom with large pot holes created by the horse. On the yard we have a dry yard (concrete and gravel) and an outdoor arena (beautifully draining) brand new, and roomy stables 12 x 14 at the smallest. I've asked my liveries to be realistic about turn out. Keep it minimal and try and use other options.

However I'm greated with glum faces. Apparently its going to cost them alot in straw and hay... and I have to provide them with other options. I've suggested walking in hand, riding in the arena and turn out in the yard. I'm at a loss. I get the distinct impression they are taking the P.

I'm not sure I understand the logic in turning out in those conditions when one horse is lame and another has terrible mud fever?

What do you think for £25 ppw DIY?
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Not read all replies but...ignore them. What you are offering is fabulous, you will always be full. The whole "NH" thing has done untold damage, in that there is now a shedload of indoctrinated novices out there chanting the mantra (amongst others) "turnout is good".

They may like it or lump it, what you are offering is sound horse management at a very reasonable price. Let them vote with their feet, owners who know a knowledgeable yard will recognise it when they find it, and stay. And we're a whole lot less hassle all round as tenants than the kind you have :)
 
Our yard has the land but when the fields are looking like rice paddys and the back hay fields are turning into lakes the whole yard(25ish people and horses) didn't complain about the fields closing. We can use the lunge pen and school and hack out. Yes my bill is going to be higher this month but at least my feild is not trashed and my horses legs aren't b*ggered.

Your yard your rules....everyone got told when coming to the yard that if heavy torrential rain feild a may be closed for a while.

Horses where fine , coped well.
 
I believe that every horse other than those who cant or where field is dangerous should be out every day. And when they are in, they should be able to see and talk to other horses.

But in winter, I dont believe that this has to be 24/7. A few hours is fine for most horses. Long enough to have a few poos and a big roll to get their face really stuck with lovely mud, chat to their pals and have a bit of a good leg stretch.

So i think restricting hours in winter (either because that is in contract or because of the exceptional weather) is absolutely reasonable but I wouldnt want to be anywhere where turnout was completely banned more than a couple of days a year eg 5 foot of snow, hurricane, alien invasion.

I do think some of the posters on this post may live places where (ilike where I am) 24x7 is possible for a YO to provide even in exceptional conditions and still break even. Much of the south of the UK, esp the SE, esp on clay, is not like this and the results of unreasonable impossible demands is that YOs decide not to be YOs and there are fewer yards in future to choose from - most livery yards would be a lot more profitable as brownfield building sites and most YOs make little money after the huge costs and rates.....
 
??!!

"The whole NH thing has done untold damage"?!

Damn those novices for thinking that turnout is good for their horses. Whoever taught them that (probably pat parelli) needs to be shot. :rolleyes: Think of all those damaged horses, damaged because they weren't in a stable 24/7.

And damn the behaviourists too, for pointing out the hours a day a horse would spebd moving and grazing. And the miles they would travel. And the activities they would do when interacting with other horses.

Oh, and damn those stupid scientists too, who seem to think turnout does the horse's teeth, respiratory system, hooves, joints, bones, muscles, tendons and ligaments good. Pah, what do they know? It's only science.

Damn them all, damnit. How dare all those novices believe that turnout is good. It defies belief :rolleyes:
 
happyhacking:) said:
I personally think if you don't have the land then don't have the liveries! People are paying for the facilities that they need for their horse. To then withdraw that because your fields are a little wet is I'm my view wrong and possibly even a breach if contract.
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Jesus:mad:!!!!!

Most land is suffering to make a comment like this.:mad::mad: Is completely unfair to OP


OP I completely sympathies with you. As above ignore them . Most here making I am not happy with that have never owned their on land don't know the up keep cost. Or the work or pride that goes into keeping a yard nice despite mother nature

I bet they would think again if it were their land that was in dispute and liveries were not obeying their rules.

Your damned if you do damned if you don't .

for £25 per week That is not a lot cheap in my area. I take it they were happy before the rain season?? So now the weather has changed they are not happy?. Well Yes they are paying a SMALL rent that does not give them case not to obey your request when all your trying to do is preserve the land as you know it should be cared for. If they are that unhappy show them the door.

What I would do is if this lot go is draw out a new
" livery inclusive" and " livery agreement" that states If the weather causes the fields to be in my opinion not useable then its the owners right to limit turnout during these times. Make them sign it if they don't like, it move on , this way they are fully aware and have to sign they agree to it before joining you, so they cannot say they were not warned
 
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