First horse, not for a novice!

[Guinevere]

I bought a horse in December, my first horse, she is a pleasure in the field and stable but came to me underweight and extremely out of condition with no muscle. She was ridden in an ill fitting saddle for 2 years, made worse by the rider using 2 saddle pads making it even tighter on her withers and she bucked when ridden (I have not ridden her since because I wanted to have her thoroughly examined and didn't want to hurt her or rush things), I have had her back checked and she was very wonky and obviously the saddle could be a reason she was bucking as she was extremely tight, but very good for the physio and made no complaints. I have been told to lunge her for a month solid before riding her and obviously get her a new saddle fitted after that, I am booking the physio to re check her before I do so to make sure she is ready.

My problem is (I am disabled and suffer from anxiety with it) she bucks and vertically rears facing me when I lunge her, I have made the decision to get a professional to lunge her for a month and have been advised to put her on a calmer which I am doing (blue chip feed, magnesium base as recommended), but A: do you think she could be doing this because she is in pain or B: trying to test me? She does the same with professionals but it is still very early days with all of the people working with her, could this improve with time? She is excellent to shoe, clip, freezemark, you name it... Her attitude only appears when ridden or lunged and her previous owner explained (after some fishing) that she has been like it for a while, but then that saddle has been used on her for 2 years!

I was also wondering whether there was anything I could do with her that might be safer for me on the ground than lungeing, perhaps on a lead rein on the ground to bond with her and have a little fun? I will always be watched in case anything happens, with any horse, due to my condition but I feel extremely useless and wish I was able to do this all by myself. I bought her as suitable for a novice but she really isn't by all accounts, but of course that won't stop me getting the professional help I need, she is a forever horse.

I would appreciate any advice, tips and hints, thanks xxx

 

[Emma1991]

I had an unhandled cobby who behaved the same way on lunge. He did it through fear and no trust in people. He was lovely on the ground to handle, but as soon as work came into it he was terrified. What I ended up doing for a while with him was lots of games in the school. Do you have access to an enclosured school where you could just let her loose? Some of the things I did were getting him to trot along behind me initially with carrots as reward, and then he did it because he wanted to after that. He'd follow me everywhere, over little jumps, tight corners. You can suddenly change direction and run towards them too and they'll move for you and then turn again and they'll follow. He loved it! I also took him for lots of in hand walks so he could learn there was nothing to be frightened of. It was a great way to bond with him and have some fun together and out of it we ended up with a horse who never needed a head collar to go anywhere, he just willingly followed along at my side. After that, we started doing lunge work and because he trusted me, he was much more relaxed and just accepted it and we had no more bucking, no more rearing and he was a dream to back!

 

[Guinevere]

I hadn't thought about fear of people, that could be a fear of something someone has done to her in a school, as well as any possible back issues. I will definitely take her for some walks in hand and positively reinforce with treats. I have an enclosed school at my yard so that could be possible in future. Thank you xxx

 

[Guinevere]

I should add she is 6 years old and a cob cross warmblood before anyone asks! Xxx

 

[Luci07]

Without trying to sound too unkind...why if you are nervous yourself, did you buy a horse that you have a long way to bring back into work and don't know how it will turn out? Is there more to this story? While it is lovely you are trying to help this horse why did you pick her?

 

[Tammytoo]

My mare started to be stroppy when lunging in one direction but not the other. She would throw me savage looks, stop and then turn in to face me. If I insisted she continue she would buck and try and run off. She is a lovely natured horse and, long story short, she had a hock spavin so the "naughty" behaviour was pain related.

Not saying your horse has spavins, but pain or fear can make them react badly so you are very wise to get everything physical checked out and then leave it to an experienced and sympathetic professional to get her confidence back.

I hope your calmer helps, but just to mention that a magnesium based calmer will only improve behaviour if your horse has a mag. deficiency. The mag. calmers didn't work on our pony but a calcium based calmer did. Look at the Equifeast range of different calmers, they are very helpful people if you ring them. However, if you can sort out the physical and/or mental problems you may not need a calmer.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Tammytoo]

Just to add - have you thought of clicker training? It's very low key and excellent for building trust.

 

[Pigeon]

To be honest, calmer's won't make that much difference. They may take the edge off a very sharp horse, but they aren't going to change learnt behaviours.

I think we'd need to see a video of her behaviour on the lunge to rule out pain, but to me it just sounds like naughtiness If she knows she can get away with avoiding work, of course she will! I would get a good instructor to lunge her a couple of times to assess her, and after that could you get the instructor, or an experienced friend, to stand with you while you lunge and advise you on how to prevent these behaviours?

The other problem is lots of lunging will increase her fitness, and this will mean she feels more exuberant and is more likely to play up! Lunging in walk in a pessoa would probably help to build her muscles without making her too fit and full of herself

 

[Pigeon]

I hadn't thought about fear of people, that could be a fear of something someone has done to her in a school, as well as any possible back issues. I will definitely take her for some walks in hand and positively reinforce with treats. I have an enclosed school at my yard so that could be possible in future. Thank you xxx

She doesn't sound nervous, more bolshy! Especially a cob x warmblood mare, you've got a potent mix there Be firm but fair with her, and use your voice rather than treats for positive re-inforcement, as hand feeding a bolshy horse can make them worse! Like I said, video would be good

 

[HeresHoping]

QQ, has she actually been taught to lunge? I ask because we have a 4 yo on our yard and I suggested some lunging once or twice a week in an equi ami to help with his balance.

The owner put him in a bridle and roller, strode out to the school and then had an utter disaster. Horse went berserk with all sorts of aerial aerobatics and flat out galloping round with head turned in.

Transpires that the young lady who backed him had long reined but didn't believe in lunging. She had only put him on the lunge once - with no one to walk around with him to demonstrate the circle - and he had panicked and gone mad so she hadn't tried again. Not quite sure what sort of long reining she had been doing, then, but we've had to teach him to lunge from the beginning. He still panics a bit when his leader walks away from his head. It's a very good example of just how much you need to be behind the shoulder to make the horse lead you.

 

[wench]

Without trying to sound too unkind...why if you are nervous yourself, did you buy a horse that you have a long way to bring back into work and don't know how it will turn out? Is there more to this story? While it is lovely you are trying to help this horse why did you pick her?

At least they are asking for advice... and admitting to their faults!

 

[Guinevere]

Thanks everyone I am on my phone at the moment but when I'm online on PC I will write out all of your points and answer them.

For now I will respond to the bit about my anxiety. That isn't horse related, it's everything related sadly and lack of confidence in everything. Was bed bound/house bound for a long time so personally everything is a challenge, but it helps in a way as I am always asking for help and double checking myself (even putting a saddle on!) having a horse is really helping with that as well as physically helping my body re adjust to life out of my bed. I've had m.e for 9 years and it has been crippling but I'm trying to take life "by the reins" as it were.

You didn't sound harsh, I am happy to explain any background to help my horse xxx

 

[Guinevere]

Luci07 - You didn't sound unkind and I'm happy to explain which I did in previous post but will add I chose her because when I rode her and watched her being ridden she gave me confidence, was calm and collected and didn't run away in the canter and was bombproof on the roads. She made me feel very safe and still does when ridden, purely in the school we have our issues, but then she has only been happy hacked for 6 months. I chose her because I thought she was right for me, she still can be but I know you cannot buy a "perfect horse" without putting the effort in, and I know I certainly would never sell her unless I thought she would have a better life with someone else. I am ALWAYS in livery and would never DIY because I am not experienced enough, I need professionals and guidance and will always have questions. I probably annoy everyone at the yard asking them to double check things for me but I want to be sure I get it right for a happy and healthy horse. Money is not an option for whatever she needs she will have, in material things but moreso professional help, and I know I need that more than her.

Tammytoo - In regard to injuries/pain like that who would I need to call to have that checked, anyone specific?
I mentioned it to the vet which is when the calmer was recommended, he said to get a magnesium based one but will definitely bear that in mind and see how we go and whether to try a calcium one. She also is shaking her head after a trot which he said sounded more behavioural or not being fit, than fully blown headshaking and to make a diary, try a net on her muzzle when riding and the calmer and to report back which I'm doing. She doesn't seem to do it when lunged, only the short rides previously but surprisingly not when I tried to buy.

Clicker training is something I do with my dogs and I'd wondered whether to try it with her, I have to do some research as I am not sure how to start with a horse. I have also considered having Sarah Fisher from Tellington T Touch to see if she can suggest anything, she is a friend and I've spoken to her about these issues I've had as well, so am trying to get as much experience as possible and advice from professionals.

Pigeon - Yes I think it she is very bolshy and is testing me to a degree, although I should make it clear I have not let her get away with it and have persisted. I have only lunged her once or twice by myself but I have always had someone with me to be sure I am doing it right. I apologise in advance if the whip is waving, I have tendonitis and I can't hold it straight but now have braces so will try again with another professional at my side, after the professional has started to lunge her regularly so she can get back into the swing of things. This is the only video I have so far but please point out anything I am doing wrong. I was being guided but added and she responded well to my vocal commands once she had got going.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ6XvakmWUA

This is only one side, and only part was filmed, I should point this out in case people are concerned I haven't done it correctly.
I understand she will be much fitter and stronger but as a rider surprisingly I am much more confident than I am on the ground, I don't want to be one of those people however that only rides and doesn't do any work on the ground as I feel that she has had this before and is possibly why she's like this now. It is important to me to be able to do everything with my horse and not rely on anyone else but always having that backup for advice.

Regarding the pessoa, we were going to try that but apparently it's best if I now lunge her without and without a noseband as she is over extending? I was told this by the physio but am having another physio out for a second opinion to be sure everything I'm planning is right for her. She used to be lunged in a roller and side reins in her previous home but I don't think a lot, she was free schooled with jumps a lot which may be why she's funny to lunge because her previous owner gave up on it?

Hereshoping - I had thought that, or at least she has done very little especially in the last 6 months. Is this the way to go? I have been recommended to buy an Equiami by Natasha Baker when I was explaining my predicament. I am happy to do this, do you think it is still advisable with her over extension of the neck? I imagine this could be controlled in a pessoa/equiami?
If we need to go back to square one then that's what I'll do.

Thank you everyone for being so helpful and asking questions for more information, I am happy to answer anything. I am currently changing yards as I wasn't getting the help I needed and wanted there but I have chosen a new yard and they have much better facilities and also someone who is excited to work with novice partnerships thankfully! They have everything she needs and more and the experience to help me get her to where she and I both want to be. xxx

 

[Guinevere]

Photo added to show you how she was lunged in her previous home. I'm unsure how regularly this was done as most of the pictures I have are of her being free schooled xxx

 

[clippi]

The thing that struck me about that video (I didn't watch the whole thing) is the size of your circle, I would make it a lot bigger, she will find it easier to balance and you can push her on as her trot is looking really slugish

 

[Guinevere]

Thanks for your comment, will do that in future. It was the first time I'd ever lunged her so I think my confidence was to play a part in the pushing her on but will definitely rectify that, thank you! xxx

 

[Tammytoo]

I agree with Clippi about the size of the circle, she isn't tracking up when she trots (being a bit lazy) but she doesn't seem to be uncomfortable. She's not really concentrating on you but seems more interested in the video maker, although she's not being naughty. I suspect that you are not 100% in your own ability at the moment and worried about getting it wrong. She is picking up on it and doing the minimum needed.

I took my mare for a thorough lameness workup at the vet which included nerve blocks and x.rays to pinpoint the problem. However, I really don't think your mare is in pain.

TT sounds a good idea and is something you can do yourself once you've been shown. If you've done clicker traininng with your dogs I would think that you could use this really well on your horse - there are plenty of books around on clicker training forr horses.

Onwards and upwards!

 

[mandwhy]

She is a big lovely horse being asked to work on a circle that makes things a bit hard work, so basically she doesn't want to and if she can get away with not doing it then she will!

Some horses can be awkward to lunge, mine is and she is quite a dominant mare who can get very bolshy, so lunging is not really the place to start with her - she just finds it pointless and frustrating. I have come to realise that it can be really rather boring and our time is better spent elsewhere for now rather than trying to force it. Mine is quite a novice ride really apart from napping a lot, but she has some strong opinions about things she doesn't like doing so I'm planning to work round to those things rather than start with them.

I think it is great that you are getting a professional to show you, they will hopefully help you be able to do it by yourself.

I recommend taking her for walks in hand if you are able and she is not too bolshy about it, I take mine out on the roads for bombproofing and it has improved my confidence as well as hers. I had an accident off another horse so was nervous about what she might do.

On a side note, I have also suffered from anxiety for years and agree horses can help a lot but they can also make you feel pretty bad! Have you tried hypnotherapy? I recently finished a course of it and I feel SO much better honestly. It hasn't completely gone away but I'm building on it. PM me if you like. My attitude when riding my horse is really different and I don't see death and doom around every corner, huzzah!

 

[Guinevere]

Thank you Tammytoo, I should add she may look lopsided as well as she was missing a back right shoe in this video, the previous owner had not replaced this, I had her done that evening after she had settled and that has helped but I am a real beginner so I can't see things like others can. Thank you again xxx

 

[Guinevere]

mandwhy - Thank you! I have often considered hynotherpay and have tried various avenues like counselling, CBT, medication but nothing has worked long term and I am currently without treatment. The best treatment has been getting Guin and having a reason to go out to muck her out and work with her.

Walking her sounds like a good idea, I broke my arm as a child riding and falling from a bolting horse but that hasn't put me off. I am scared of falling off but moreso I'm petrefied of doing something wrong as you can probably tell from my posts

I will look into the hynotherapy and perhaps for the horse aspect some confidence boosting maybe on other horses as well. I am a born again rider after about 15 years (I'm 25 this year but spent most of my early life in the saddle) and whereas I used to get on with things as a child, I am more questioning about how I do things now with horses and every day life.

I want what's best for both of us but I am also not one to give up so I will try everything I can and have no intention of getting rid because she's not for a novice at the moment. These people are there for you to help if you ask, and I find it quite easy to ask, so that's a start I guess!! xxx

 

[Brightbay]

I was going to suggest clicker training too - great way for the horse to build up pleasant associations with you being there and asking them to do things, makes them really motivated to please you, and at the same time allows you to train good behaviour in a nice, low key, non stressful way so that your own confidence is built up.

Shawna Karrasch is a good starting point, and is doing some "intro to clicker" topics on her blog at the moment http://shawnakarrasch.com/blog/2013...-off-to-the-right-start-for-clicker-training/

Alternatively, have a look at Hannah Dawson, who's UK based and does lots of fun stuff: http://www.hannahdawsonequine.co.uk/

 

[Guinevere]

Thank you brightbay, she is learning to "kiss" while I can't ride her and do much with her, haha! That's about as far as I've got but I will definitely look at those links and do something a bit more educational for her xxx

 

[Kat]

I'm intrigued to know why you would buy a horse with so many issues as a first horse, especially if you are not an experienced and confident horse person.

Where did you get her from and what explanation was given regarding her issues and problems?

Have you had her checked by a vet or just a back person? I would strongly suggest getting the vet out if you haven't already.

In the meantime, try other ground work to get her exercising without lunging. Some horses just don't lunge. I used to know one who was a super schoolmaster, suitable to be ridden by total beginners but also capable of some decent dressage, lovely nature etc who was positively dangerous to lunge. He'd do anything else but wouldn't lunge, despite years with lots of very experienced people on hand he never was safe to lunge (whether you used lunging aids, or had a leader or even a rider). You could work her in hand, just taking her for walks in the school at first, and maybe asking her to back up or move over and building up to more demanding work, such as trotting up in hand, poles, working around hazards (walking over a tarp etc) and even lateral work. You could try long reining (get someone experienced to try this first) and if she long reins well she might eventually lunge on two reins. You can try free schooling and walking out in hand when you are more confident but stay safe.

I would also suggest that you look at her feed and turnout routine to see whether there is anything else you can do to try and keep a lid on her behaviour. In terms of her back I would have thought as much turnout as possible would be beneficial (and will also be good for her behaviour) I would also feed from the floor as much as possible so that the muscles are being stretched. Feed wise I would cut out anything heating and give her just a token feed with a vitamin suppliment in, be careful to keep it low sugar, low starch and and fibre based. Feeding a magnesium suppliment might help a little but is worth a try as it is pretty inexpensive and unlikely to do any harm fed at the recommended levels.

 

[Guinevere]

I was lied to by the person selling her on several counts, so I didn't expect it at all. This was her advert:

" 16.3hh 6 yr old tri coloured mare. Warmblood/cob cross. Super young horse, sensible and talented, the sort hard to find. Would carry any member of the family hacking safely. Good to hunt, showing great paces for dressage, scopey jump, would event. Good in traffic, load, clip and shoe, can be handled by a small child. Super well rounded young horse ready for a specific discipline or to be a great family all rounder. Snaffle mouth at all times. Will go first or last or stand and wait whilst others go for a gallop. Only for sale as her owner has joined family in Australia "

We weren't told so had no explanations but I have since managed to get some info from her owner in Australia.

My new yard are tailoring a routine to her needs which is very helpful as well as her feed. There are a lot of very experienced people there and I will be able to get more help there which is the main reason I am moving.

They will obviously assess her themselves and I am booking another physio as afore mentioned for a second opinion, the vet will see her again when she is settled in her new home, and then obviously the saddle fitter when the time comes. I may even ask the physio to come out before and after her new routine so that she has a good idea of her development and what she needs and is ready for at each stage xxx

 

[Guinevere]

To add the physio is ACPAT registered xxx

 

[Kat]

I was lied to by the person selling her on several counts, so I didn't expect it at all. This was her advert:

" 16.3hh 6 yr old tri coloured mare. Warmblood/cob cross. Super young horse, sensible and talented, the sort hard to find. Would carry any member of the family hacking safely. Good to hunt, showing great paces for dressage, scopey jump, would event. Good in traffic, load, clip and shoe, can be handled by a small child. Super well rounded young horse ready for a specific discipline or to be a great family all rounder. Snaffle mouth at all times. Will go first or last or stand and wait whilst others go for a gallop. Only for sale as her owner has joined family in Australia "

We weren't told so had no explanations but I have since managed to get some info from her owner in Australia.

My new yard are tailoring a routine to her needs which is very helpful as well as her feed. There are a lot of very experienced people there and I will be able to get more help there which is the main reason I am moving.

They will obviously assess her themselves and I am booking another physio as afore mentioned for a second opinion, the vet will see her again when she is settled in her new home, and then obviously the saddle fitter when the time comes. I may even ask the physio to come out before and after her new routine so that she has a good idea of her development and what she needs and is ready for at each stage xxx

I thought there would be a back story, you didn't sound like someone who would overhorse themselves, so I thought there must be a bit more to it.

Did you have her vetted on purchase? Did the issues show up? I'm wondering whether you have been let down or misled and might have some recourse. It must be very expensive for you.

Has the previous owner shed much light on things for you?

I would make sure the yard do cut her feed right down and give her maximum turnout. They sound good but people have different ideas and some people believe some funny things, you don't want to find that she has been fed something really heating because someone's feeding knowledge is out of date or inaccurate. I had some shockingly bad advice from a feed company nutritionist and if they can get it so wrong you can understand why a busy YO or groom might too. Something simple like not realising that a certain chaff is mollassed could make a big difference.

Keep an eye on things, ask lots of questions and do your own research. Educate yourself, it will help your confidence no end as well as helping your horse. You sound like a good owner determined to do the best for their horse, trust yourself, I'm relatively new to ownership too and I found several times I asked questions about something i wasn't sure about and was given "duff information". Not by someone intentionally misleading me or being stupid, just being a bit out of date or not quite fully informed. Always take the advice, ask questions so you understand the reasoning, say you will think about it then do your own research before deciding for sure. Your horse will thank you for it.

 

[Kat]

Oh and this place is a brilliant resource. It is really easy to get a great spectrum of unbiased opinion and to check real life advice. I have had some fantastic advice from this place, it is worth putting up with some of the scary/judgemental stuff for the good it has to offer.

 

[Guinevere]

Won't comment too much on it as am pursuing it but we were not told anything by the people who were selling her on behalf of the owner and she seemed great on the day but I know they knew these things, now. Just to sell her.

Her current diet is morning and night:

a handful of garlic
a scoop of alfa oil
half a scoop of pasture mix (morning, not night)
half a scoop of spillers conditioning cubes
half a cup of soya oil

I have since researched that a leisure horse should not be on so much soya oil thanks to a post by horse and hound and I am considering a swap to sunflower oil. She has been on this while I haven't done anything with her which is concerning as I didn't know the soya oil could make her a bit exuberant which I have since found out.

I haven't moved her to my new yard yet but they have suggested alterations and also for her up in exercise. She will be turned out every day but come in for night, she suffers from sweet itch too which was why this was recommended.

The new yard feeds hifi I believe and have also suggested reconsidering the soya oil and doing some research into it, which is what prompted me. I feel bad for not doing this myself because I research everything the dogs I have eat and take in but sometimes you trust people in authority to tell you what is best and take it as law which I know I shouldn't. Could you make any suggestions to her diet? She will also be starting on 30 of the Blue Chip calmer but I have also been told to try her up to as much as 50. I have emailed the company to ask about that as I don't want to knock her out if it is effective xxx

 

[Guinevere]

Oh and this place is a brilliant resource. It is really easy to get a great spectrum of unbiased opinion and to check real life advice. I have had some fantastic advice from this place, it is worth putting up with some of the scary/judgemental stuff for the good it has to offer.

I must admit I was a bit scared I would be hounded but I must assure everyone I will not be offended by help and advice, that is why I am here and I want to question things with the correct research and advice from a range of sources, so thank you xxx

 

[clippi]

I would knock out the conditioning cubes.
In fact I would look at knocking out all extra feeds. Does she really need it?
Maybe a bit of chaff to hide her calmer in