Following on from the livery thread...some thoughts

Landcruiser

Landcruiser

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We often get threads about liveries, and a recurring theme is lack of turn out. There are loads of places around with little or no turnout in winter, and often unsuitable turnout in summer (eg postage stamp size individual, with no shelter from sun or flies). And yet these places are often full, with waiting lists. They often have lots of facilities - schools, showers, walkers, all the gear. So I was musing...how much of this stuff is for the benefit of the horse? And how much is for the convenience and pleasure of the human?
Horse needs - shelter, feed/water, movement, company of its own kind and the ability to interact. Health and hoof care as necessary. Simple really. Horses aren't interested in any of the other stuff, it's purely for us. And we get other benefits too - the social side, the support.
It seems to me that a large number of people just carry on without even questioning any of this...go to these yards, ride, have a ball, and the horses are perfectly well and well schooled and carry on doing whatever they are asked to do, and often spend their lives in more or less solitary confinement. It also seems to me that a lot of people DO question, and want better for their horses, so we get serial yard movers (as I was before we bought our own place), and conflict.
So it's a balancing act...our needs/wants against those of our horse. I'm not setting out to judge, but I would prefer more self awareness and consideration for the horse - I think questioning is key..and I think if people don't consider the needs of their horse as being as important if not more important than their own wants, then the horse is in trouble.
 
I have my own private yard, luckily, so am not at livery.
When we go to events, or sometimes visit friends on yards, I could honestly cry for the horses in their “solitary confinement”.
I agree with you, Landcruiser, it is often for the convenience of the owner, but along side this is the fact Commercial livery doesn’t pay well. The costs are high, profit small, so this way of horse keeping possibly improves that, imho.
Also, there are quite a few new horse owners, who do not have a “horsey background”, and maybe know no differently. To them, this is “acceptable and normal”.
 
This is why I'm only looking for a gelding in the search for my new horse. My old boy is so happy on my geldings only yard that I would dream of moving him and I can't have two in two different places, I just don't have the time. I'd also hope that any new horse would be just as happy there are as it's such a horse centred environment. The yard doesn't have everything I want but it certainly has everything he needs. There are others in the area that do have indoor schools, hot wash bays and solariums and trainers on site but they don't have lots of turnout in lovely friendly groups so I won't be going there.
 
I've always moved because the previous place was no longer suiting the horses, except one where I moved to be closer to home after changing jobs (yard had been on the way to work).

However, one of my horses has pretty niche needs and so it may seem like her regime is like a prison camp but it's actually 100% chosen to suit her (small individual paddock, no shelter, no trees, nothing, she gets frightened by them and prefers open space! I have tried to keep her in other set ups and it doesn't work as well as she gets very anxious) I keep another horse on the yard to deal with her separation anxiety and the pair of them thrive on the strict routine (which may appear to be a lack of flexibility if viewed by an outsider ;)) She's fairly unusual, I know :p

So I agree in principle, of course the horse doesn't give a toss about facilities and most would prefer a fairly natural way of life. But it is possible to meet their needs within the livery environment.
 
I'd agree that many yards do seem to cater more for the humans than the horses. My old cob was on a yard which looks a total dump - the buildings are well past their sell-by date, the school is pretty rubbish and the yard owner has very poor social skills! However, the horses live out 24/7 in groups of 3-6. The fields are a decent sized (4 acres each) with natural shelter. They all get hay and hard feed in the field as needed. Although the winter fields are now l getting muddy in places there are two ready to move into when spring arrives, but a trash paddock for the one or two who get too fat on new grass. The winter fields will recover during their 6-7 month rest.

None of the horses are young now - all in their late teens but are healthy and settled. My old cob was there 14 years until he died late last year aged over 30. My son successfully evented his horse off grass to BE Intermediate. The YO will never make it into a good business because the yard looks awful and also because although the YO is well qualified and experienced he p*sses most people off sooner or later!
 
milliepops said:
I've always moved because the previous place was no longer suiting the horses, except one where I moved to be closer to home after changing jobs (yard had been on the way to work).

However, one of my horses has pretty niche needs and so it may seem like her regime is like a prison camp but it's actually 100% chosen to suit her (small individual paddock, no shelter, no trees, nothing, she gets frightened by them and prefers open space! I have tried to keep her in other set ups and it doesn't work as well as she gets very anxious) I keep another horse on the yard to deal with her separation anxiety and the pair of them thrive on the strict routine (which may appear to be a lack of flexibility if viewed by an outsider ;)) She's fairly unusual, I know :p

So I agree in principle, of course the horse doesn't give a toss about facilities and most would prefer a fairly natural way of life. But it is possible to meet their needs within the livery environment.
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I probably didn't word my reply properly - I was just heading off to a meeting.

I've also just written a war and peace post about what I think a yard should be able to provide and the flexibility it should offer (all horses needs based). Then I thought about what I would be offering if I was to take on a livery (it is a consideration to help with costs a bit) and have deleted the whole lot.

I suppose a yard can only offer what is available and what will work for the owner/manager. And then we as the customer choose what we see is right for our animal. When the needs of the animal/owner changes we have a choice as a consumer to change the product we use.

But it definitely makes you think doesn't it. I have one which I know wouldn't cope with a massive yard, but in order to offer all which I first thought I should be able expect from one place the yard would have to be huge (horse numbers and acreage)

No wonder my parents were knackered constantly catering for everything they did when they had their livery yard.
 
I select livery on the strength of turnout first and facilities second. Where turnout has been promised and not materialised, or been eroded for whatever reason, I've always moved on to yards with better turnout options generally at the expense of facilities. I keep them half an hour away currently because there's nowhere decent in the area at all (it's a godforsaken place for horses), and without an arena or any of the bits that would make winter more fun. Currently I think this is a very bad exchange but the horses appreciate it, so for now I work with it!

I think a lot of liveries put facilities first simply because a lot of owners don't understand or value the importance of natural behaviours, herd interaction and turnout. There are always oddballs (like Kira ?) but many owners are simply oblivious to their horse's distress.
 
Our yard is pretty perfect in my opinion. 365 day turnout over 80 acres of grazing. Mixed herd turnout. Nicely maintained fields and fencing, good hacking, stabling if you want it. Hot water and horse hose, a riding field with jumps over summer. Off road riding on the farm.

But we don’t have an arena and so always have vacancies. We could keep up to 20-25 horses this way but we only have 8-9 consistent liveries. Yard owner doesn’t advertise very much/ at all but I think the main reason we don’t have more liveries is because we have no arena/horse walker and you have to ride through two gates to get to the hacking off the farm.
 
Our local big equestrian centre is typical of lots of yards and is catered very much for the owners convenience rather than the horses welfare. They have DIY stables, which are wooden with a covered walk way. It’s dark and depressing and yet those horses only get an hours turnout a day. The full liveries aren’t any better, there’s is a large barn crammed full with internal stables with no solid walls, so small pens in effect. I’m not sure what happens if the horses don’t like their neighbours peering in at them while they are eating. Cobwebs are plenty and I did wonder about the horses lungs, especially when some are bedded on straw and some on shavings. Again these horses have an hours turnout maximum. Even the school is joined onto the barn so no daylight or fresh air there either.

I’m sure it’s lovely for the owners though, they can ride in all weathers and at any time and don’t even get wet going from one to the other.
 
A lot of yards take on more horses than they have grazing for because of the money. I have never been on a competitive yard and luckily all the places I have been on have had plenty of turnout and grazing, although no facilities . It seems you can have one or the other not both
 
Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:
I think a lot of liveries put facilities first simply because a lot of owners don't understand or value the importance of natural behaviours, herd interaction and turnout. There are always oddballs (like Kira ?) but many owners are simply oblivious to their horse's distress.
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I'm sure you're right.

having an oddball def adds complexity to an already awkward issue :p
There are so many yards I have had to rule out because they were too "horse friendly", like stables made up of lower walls rather than full height grills etc, another horse would have loved being able to put a nose over the wall to sniff the neighbour or have the full front of the stable to look out over but Kira would have climbed over it and started a punch up :rolleyes: ffs :eek:
 
When i moved house to a different area i found the same, all the nice yards had 0 or extremely limited winter turn out.
I found one that didn't and have to travel a bit for it, it is a bit of a dive, arena is rubbish, the owners aren't great with upkeep but i have a big stable, hacking and a 2.5 acre field with 2 in that does well all year with no restrictions on turnout other than in overnight through winter but they could go out whatever time of the morning and come in at any time of the night. Then they live out all summer.
It does mean i have to spend my winter travelling for arena hires etc but at least they get to go out every day.
The only other option was to having amazing facilities and have the horses banged up 90% of the time, lots of people come and go on this yard because its a free for all and a bit of a mess but i try to keep in mind that the horse is in a nice field and is happy its me that struggles with the ocd untidyness and the inconvenience and cost of having to go out to get a decent ride in winter.
The previous area i lived in (which was closer to London oddly) had tonnes of yards to choose from that had both good turnout and good facilities so it must vary alot depending on where you live.
 
milliepops said:
I'm sure you're right.

having an oddball def adds complexity to an already awkward issue :p
There are so many yards I have had to rule out because they were too "horse friendly", like stables made up of lower walls rather than full height grills etc, another horse would have loved being able to put a nose over the wall to sniff the neighbour or have the full front of the stable to look out over but Kira would have climbed over it and started a punch up :rolleyes: ffs :eek:
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I'm not convinced about lower walls between stables - so many horses are food protective or aggressive, I think they're asking for issues, unless everything is on identical ad lib forage/feed. I'm fairly sure Fergus would climb over a wall to steal someone's more interesting food, even if he had some of his own. I think they're more of an excuse to avoid proper turnout than an actual horse friendly move. If they really wanted to improve horse welfare is a stable, adding small adjoining pens with neighbour contact would be a better idea (and still not an excuse not to provide sufficient daily turnout).
 
Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:
I'm not convinced about lower walls between stables - so many horses are food protective or aggressive, I think they're asking for issues, unless everything is on identical ad lib forage/feed. I'm fairly sure Fergus would climb over a wall to steal someone's more interesting food, even if he had some of his own. I think they're more of an excuse to avoid proper turnout than an actual horse friendly move. If they really wanted to improve horse welfare is a stable, adding small adjoining pens with neighbour contact would be a better idea (and still not an excuse not to provide sufficient daily turnout).
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Oh I agree regarding the privacy issue, I put up walls made of bulk bags at one place because Millie needed a private space in her stable that the next door horse couldn't invade but those were only gates rather than walls so very low indeed. But quite a number round here don't have full height walls at the stable fronts either, which are a no-go for a horse that has climbing out tendencies ;)
 
milliepops said:
Oh I agree regarding the privacy issue, I put up walls made of bulk bags at one place because Millie needed a private space in her stable that the next door horse couldn't invade but those were only gates rather than walls so very low indeed. But quite a number round here don't have full height walls at the stable fronts either, which are a no-go for a horse that has climbing out tendencies ;)
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I used to have that issue with Dae. I was always looking for a stable that resembled Stalag Luft - and fields very much the same!
 
I think people forget that they are only there for 2-3 hours or so and during that time they're busy so it's a stimulating environment for a human. The horse spends the other 21 hours or so living there whilst the human goes out and gets on with the rest of the life.
People celebrate having turnout from 8am-3pm but in reality that leaves the horse standing in a small cage for 17 hours a day.
There are ways it can work with limited turnout, but we must re-think our ideas of acceptable stable size and add in all weather paddocks IMO
 
Another thing I see a lot of, is people blaming yards and deciding they are awful and not meeting requirements when actually its an excuse for their poorly managed horse.

Now that's not saying there aren't lots of unsuitable yards I wouldn't keep a toy horse on let alone a real one. Just a recent sequence of events I've witnessed where someone has moved to yard after yard deeming them 'unsuitable' for various reasons, when really it wasn't any of the yards that were the issue...

(edit: this isn't aimed at anyone on here but someone in RL who has been through my yard and others I know. I do hope they find what they're looking for but it makes me sad that they've bitched about yards and potentially giving people a bad name when it isn't called for!)

Oh and Skylla is in full agreement that neighbours who watch you eat are the thing of the devil, unless it's Topaz and Doodle in which case its ok go figure :rolleyes:.
 
I was at a yard that suited me. Close to home, on the way to work, huge field for me to drive in and lots of people to drive with me. The YO told me there was 24/7 turnout all year. And then she shut the fields and told me the horses weren't going back out until Spring. I found another yard that day and moved as soon as I was physically able to. The other livery is still there even though her horse is utterly miserable.

I now travel about 14 miles and 25 min journey because we have turnout. Its still smallish fields of about 1.5 acres, but they go out in pairs, have hedges for shelter and everything is very settled and happy there.

Its not a smart yard. The school floods and then goes deep so I have to be very careful with it. The place isn't the tidiest either. It costs me the same as part livery by the time I pay for assistance to turn in/out etc. But the other liveries are nice, the ponies are happy and that's what really matters.

Its also significantly cheaper than the other yard. It really isn't a case of you get what you pay for. I would be happy to throw money at the problem, but bitter experience has taught me that it doesn't work.
 
I have accepted that my fields will turn to sloppy bogs in winter, as will my turnout pens - but i think turnout is more important than the place looking pretty. I don't have enough acreage to rest paddocks for months, and nor do I want to, as i'm on heavy clay, which grows rocket fuel grass nearly all year round. i turn a blind eye to the fields in winter, harrow them in spring, and then have a lovely summer with the place looking gorgeous.
Luckily, my liveries appreciate that their horses can live out all year round, or if stabled, they go out every day whatever the weather. I'm always a bit mortified if potential liveries want to come and see the place in winter, but comfort myself with the thought that they'll be pleasantly surprised when it is lovely for 2/3 of the year!
 
It can be REALLY hard to find a yard with:



Sensible turnout groups

Well managed field ground and fencing

Small group 4 acre plus field turnout

Well draining field land that is usable all year

All year turnout

Good hacking

Good lit school

Within a sensible radius of home and work.



It can be a challenge and can require compromise.





I have no idea why most people (horses with unusual needs aside) don’t REFUSE to EVEN CONSIDER the yards with amazing facilities, but on wet low lying clay, and with no winter turnout, or turnout in deep mud for a few hours. No idea why there are so many liveries willing to accept this as an option.



I can understand if have clay, and turnout pens / hard standing turnout / surfaced track turnout etc. It is a compromise.
 
Mine is kept on individual turnout as he often trys to kill anything he is turned out with. He can be fine for weeks and then seems to take exception and try and kill what ever he is in with, doesnt seem to matter if its a mare or gelding, how big the field is or how long they are turned out for.
The last time he did it he was turned out with my YO's old 15hh Haffie mare, introduced carefully over a fence and then the fence removed, they pootled along for 6 weeks, grooming each other, grazing within inches of each other etc, then one day he just decided he didnt like her and pinned her up against a fence and booted seven bells out of her resulting in significant injuries to her (he was not shod).

so I've given up on him going out in a herd as I don't want anyone else getting hurt and he seems happy pottling along in his own space.
 
Anyone who has read my thread about the yard I just left and wondered how I managed to stay there for so long, a big part of the answer is turnout.

I left the yard before the nightmare one because horses were only getting 2 or 3 hours a day out during winter. It wasn't like that when I first went there but every winter it seemed to be less so I moved to have less facilities but more turnout. They were getting a good 10 to 12 hours out a day at the otherwise nightmarish yard which is why I stayed.

I've always tried to put my horses needs before mine and good turnout has always been my no 1 priority on a yard. That has now changed though and my no 1 priority is now the safety of my horses!
 
Do milliepops and I have the same horse? Gypsum won't accept 24/7 turnout, friends, winter turnout shorter than an hour but longer than five hours, stables will lower walls (she'd try to eat the neighbour), turnout fields with the wrong geography (whatever this is), knee-deep mud, and isolated barns without enough activity. She will accept individual turnout, but on her terms, and human slaves. Long ago, I gave up any notions of finding 'horse-centric' barns that do things how most horses want and I'm happy when I find ones that do things how she wants.
 
I've got one of them too MP/CI. Deedee cant cope with more than 3 hours out. Even with company, even with hay. I've had to rewrite my rules for her. I used to judge people who kept their horses like I keep her but I've realised that unless I know the full story behind a person's management plan I should not make assumptions or value judgements.
 
Leo Walker said:
It really isn't a case of you get what you pay for. I would be happy to throw money at the problem, but bitter experience has taught me that it doesn't work.
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Me too. I was happily paying part livery prices and doing DIY at a yard which had lots of good turnout but unfortunately good fields = good housing estate so we had to move.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I used to judge people who kept their horses like I keep her but I've realised that unless I know the full story behind a person's management plan I should not make assumptions or value judgements.
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until you've had an oddball it's hard to imagine just how weird some horses can be. and also sometimes people think that you can just force them to go back to being normal.
I am almost certain that mine was normal until her previous owner made some bad management decisions and screwed her up ;) so the judgement is fair but it would be a bit mean to direct it at me, I'm just picking up the pieces.

"wrong geography" as CI puts it is the perfect terminology :p
she would live out quite happily but only on the steppes, and with company always within eyeline but safely stowed away on the other side of a fence. Not sure where this mythical fenced plain is but Kira dreams of it o_O
 
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