Following on from the livery thread...some thoughts

It's hard when you have horses who have different ideas of what they 'need' but a yard that's at least open to making things right for them all as far as possible is a big help. Even though our stables have full walls, M has to be at the end of the row as he can't cope with others in his personal space. He was in the corner of an L shape initially as it's the biggest stable and he's the biggest horse but he hated it so he and A had to swap. We also had to swap the new horse in the stable next to him with his best friend B as the new horse had a strange habit of hugging the right hand wall in his stable - this was the wall right next to M and he could sense the horse there and was kicking the walls.

Having said that, if M and B go to camp together the stables there have half walls and bars. B gets ridiculously clingy and even though M normally hates horses in his space, he seems to sense B needs him and stays near B. He still has to be at the end of a row though as a strange horse the other side of him is clearly there to kill him or steal his most prized possessions. Even the time we had A with us at camp too (the three are great friends at home) we had to put M on the end, B in the middle and A the other side as M just can't cope with being hemmed in. We hoped having A the other side of B would help him feel even more secure but A wasn't good enough, it had to M babysitting him! This is a horse who will happily stay in a 7 acre field (but not his stable) on his own at home. They're strange creatures. :rolleyes:
 
Just a Festive Troll in the Dungeon said:
This is the problem - someone, somewhere along the line has buggered up these horses. There may be the odd one which naturally just can't cope with a normal lifestyle, but they're not going to constitute a significant percentage of horses kept in those sorts of lifestyles. I find the clue is in multiple horse owners - if one owner has multiple unrelated horses with the same issue, it's probably the owner's issue not the horses'. If the owner has a few horses who live a normal life, and one who needs the rules changed, it's probably an oddball, or the product of a non-horse-centric system.
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I agree with this. No horse is born hating turnout and loving its stable. Somewhere along the lines somebody has forced it to stay in and it’s become its ‘normal’.

I know someone who has done exactly this. Her traditional cob won’t stay out for long she says and I’ve seen him pacing the fence. The sad thing is he’s only like it because she kept him as a stallion for years, so no friends, and kept him stabled because she thinks working horses should be stabled (if you call driven twice a week ‘work’). He has literally no idea what he’s supposed to do out in a field on his own, so of course he’s happier in.
 
I like to think my current yard is with the horses in mind. No stables, natural shelter but massive fields with heaps of grass in summer that the owners meticulously manage. Would love if the arena was floodlit but personally I feel big fields + mine in a little herd seems to = happy horses which then benefits their ridden work too
 
Ambers Echo said:
Deedee isn't. In fact we moved her from a field that was getting poached to the neighbouring field with decent grass -- still sharing a fence line with the same friend she had before. And she was pacing immediately and sweating up. She could not cope with the change of field. She is happy for 2-3 hours then she wants to come in and gets more and more agitated the longer she is left. My YO went out one day and left her for about 5 hours in sunshine and she was in a right state when she came back! YO won't leave her out anymore unless she is onsite and can bring her in immediately when she wants to come in.
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Actually, my friend has one similar. He’s a 17hh ID X and is as happy as Larry for about 3 hours, then all hell breaks loose and if he’s not brought in, he brings himself in.
There are always exceptions and horses are all different. I do think they can be very easily influenced by previous experiences. A horse who has had relatively little to no turnout in one home may take a lot longer to adjust to normal turnout in a new home. In most cases though, I do think it’s possible to change that mentality, with careful management, time and good grazing. Doesn’t work for all though, I agree.
 
meleeka said:
Our local big equestrian centre is typical of lots of yards and is catered very much for the owners convenience rather than the horses welfare. They have DIY stables, which are wooden with a covered walk way. It’s dark and depressing and yet those horses only get an hours turnout a day. The full liveries aren’t any better, there’s is a large barn crammed full with internal stables with no solid walls, so small pens in effect. I’m not sure what happens if the horses don’t like their neighbours peering in at them while they are eating. Cobwebs are plenty and I did wonder about the horses lungs, especially when some are bedded on straw and some on shavings. Again these horses have an hours turnout maximum. Even the school is joined onto the barn so no daylight or fresh air there either.

I’m sure it’s lovely for the owners though, they can ride in all weathers and at any time and don’t even get wet going from one to the other.
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I think I'm probably local to you, are you in Hampshire by any chance?! Totally agree with all you said if it is that particular yard as i used to work there!
 
the other thing is you can end up creating the "won't stay out" problem even with an otherwise normal horse.
Last yard would insist that horses were brought in as soon as they appeared at the gate because they were "asking" to come in, and YO didn't want them to make the gateways muddy.
So the horse would be put in the stable, get hay etc. slowly they'd start appearing at the gate sooner and sooner each day and owner would end up thinking the horse wouldn't stay out even though it wasn't like that in the past.

Thing is, they appear at the gate sometimes, realise there isn't anyone around and the wander off again quite happy ;) it's back to that thing about you're always training or untraining your horse, in every interaction.
 
I'm another 'special needs horse' owner.

Mine cannot be on her own. Generally it's when she's new to a place and unsettled, but sometimes just randomly, but she will jump out. 5 bar gates, stable doors, electric fences, doesn't matter.
So 1 consideration is somewhere that she's not going to be on her own, and also that if she does decide to jump out she can't go anywhere. And a YO/YM who doesn't mind (too much!)
She also has metabolic issues, so can't live out in summer. The number of yards where that's an issue is surprising - either they remain on 3 hour turnout in summer (not ok in my book), she would be in on her own or she has to stay out 24/7. I've even been told EMS isn't a real thing and I'm making it up before now!
Then my needs just being I like DIY (and neither want/can afford part)

This then restricts options massively, even before you add in school, hacking etc requirements!

So for now we are on a yard which is really not to my ideal standards (maintenance non-existent, not a huge amount of hacking and school far too deep) But everyone is friendly, there's no judgement and YM either very understanding or just isn't bothered by Madams issues. It works because she's flexible and relaxed (This is also why there's no maintenance, no routine and so on but it works both ways!)
It's been a hard winter, the field is smaller and has more horses on it than I'd like for a grass livery situation and we have alot of mud around the hay area/gate which is not ideal for a horse with iffy legs but actually beyond that the rest of the field is pretty good, Fatty is settled and in a month or two's time when the grass comes through we have options for managing her weight, so we are making do.

I actually think I'm very lucky to live in an area with a lot of choice of different yards, although DIY is becoming harder and harder to find (I do understand why tbf) Most that I'm aware of offer all year turnout in good fields, some better than others of course.
But with a currently limited budget (vet bills) and special needs horse it does massively reduce options! Next horse is not allowed any metabolic issues!!!

If I could find a yard or field to rent that would be my ideal but they're like hens teeth!
 
milliepops said:
the other thing is you can end up creating the "won't stay out" problem even with an otherwise normal horse.
Last yard would insist that horses were brought in as soon as they appeared at the gate because they were "asking" to come in, and YO didn't want them to make the gateways muddy.
So the horse would be put in the stable, get hay etc. slowly they'd start appearing at the gate sooner and sooner each day and owner would end up thinking the horse wouldn't stay out even though it wasn't like that in the past.

Thing is, they appear at the gate sometimes, realise there isn't anyone around and the wander off again quite happy ;) it's back to that thing about you're always training or untraining your horse, in every interaction.
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Agreed. Another thing is that people who bring the horse straight into a Haynet. I do this myself, but my horses are well behaved. However, Diva went through a very naughty stage at the old yard where she became a nightmare to bring in. She had to be bridled, but she would rear, spin and be a general idiot. I used to remove her haynet so she came in to absolutely nothing because it occurred to me that she was getting her ‘reward’ for being a bag by getting a lovely load of hay to tuck into. Once she realised she was standing in for 15 minutes with nothing everyday, her behaviour massively improved.
Every interaction with a horse is a training day.
 
I feel quite lucky where I am the YO is very much up to date with upkeep of the place and routine etc, but has had enough experience with all kinds of high maintenance horses to understand that sometimes you have to make the effort to do things differently to suit an individual.

when I first looked around I thought he was going to be too rigid to cope with Kira's neediness but i think he understood that i wasn't just a hysterical owner that couldn't train my horse to suck it up, and it was a genuine thing. So his strict routine got bent for her just enough to keep everyone happy ;)
 
We don't at home, but we just have a little sand paddock with hay they can stretch their legs in. Works wonders for mud too. But yes, at my old livery we didn't even have that chance for while we mucked out and I hated it.
 
I have a youngster and one with spavins so turnout is massively important. More so than facilities. Most yards round here are restricted to every other day or 4 hours only etc so I moved to a farm. There are a few of us, we have old cow sheds converted to stables. Not the prettiest but large. We are on clay so farmer likes them in overnight in the wettest months but doesn’t stipulate dates or times. Small sand school which personally i think is only good for a buck and a roll as it’s not maintained, yard/farm is old and falling apart but electric and water. Fields are split into 3.5 acre paddocks and my 2 share that, can do what I want with it. They go out all day every day (10-12 hours) and as soon as it dries up a bit they can go out 24/7 again. Last year they came in overnight mid December and went back out first week in March. Hacking is okay when dry as farmer lets you go round his fields.
thing is.... will this still be a suitable set up when my youngster is backed and ridden away??? Struggling to see how it will be but am I willing to give this up for a fancy school etc?
 
Interesting, I agree with the HHO collective here, the more turnout the better. The problem is paying for the land and facilities means YOs need to have more horses than the land can sustain.
I went to see a friend's new horse last week, she's on a stunning yard: indoor school and barn stabling, heated tack and rug rooms, warm water shower, solarium, absolutely lovely it was. However they have no turnout and all the horses were exhibiting stress and tension to one degree or another. My friend and the other liveries there didn't see it, as they're so used to seeing horses in this situation but it was pretty clear to me.

milliepops said:
... Turns out 5 is the magic number!...
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Haha many years ago I figured out 5 was the ideal number of horses to have, so I'm glad others have come to this conclusion. However for me that's never going to happen, I struggle to look after 2, I don't know how you manage with 5!
 
3 of them basically look after themselves ;) I think millie would happily lead the return to the wild tbh, they'd be totally self sufficient then! my biggest job with them is keeping the fencing up together ?

In the public interest, I'm hoping to trial a 6th this year. For research purposes, you see ?
 
I am a serial yard mover. I believe my record for going NOPE is about 48 hrs. I don't appreciate goalpost moving. I especially don't appreciate random turnout restrictions with ever changing rules. I don't like postage stamp turnout areas with knee high mud. I don't "do" individual turnout. I don't "do" having horses stabled 24/7 all winter (heck I don't "do" stables at all these days) I've been places with things like lights that don't work more often than they do, water that randomly stops working (temperamental pump... think something used to like tripping the electric at one place, no mains water or electric at another) & a grazing area vast enough / with enough woodland that it was sometimes impossible to locate the horses on in the dark / fog unless you were lucky enough to catch their eyes in the torchlight / walk into them (It could take up to an hour to find a horse if they'd gotten into places they weren't supposed to), no arena & an access track that some vehicles would refuse to drive down in the name of unrestricted turnout. I've kept a horse an hour from home when his needs were outside of what a normal yard could provide. (The subsection of yards catering for "hates being stabled (will express this feeling in an angry, stressy way oh & any area including a shelter & hardstanding classes as a "stable" in his head no matter how big it is if there's a gate to a field which is visible to him that is closed), must have at least 1 horse as company at all times & multiple horses at least half the time, ad-lib forage (MUST be low sugar, oh & doesn't tolerate ryegrass well), must have little to no grass all of Spring & Summer but must have as much movement as possible & I must have complete control over what hard feed he gets & he must get his meds every day in precisely the way I tell you to" is not very large!)

I do have a slightly easier pony to manage now but he's still about 30 mins away because I can't find a yard nearer home that I think would work for me & for him at this moment in time. The fact that I want both a decent quality & quantity of Winter turnout (& Summer turnout) tends to rule rather a large percentage of yards out. I've looked at over 30 yards now I think, mostly when I had the Orange one as yeah he needed all his boxes ticking to be happy.

All that said at the current yard the horses have access to a large field which had been well rested & drains reasonably well. It's got better grass cover & is drier than most fields are at the moment I think & is ample space for the 4 occupants. It has a small shelter (perhaps 2 horses would fit) & a bit of hedge cover near the shelter although most of the field is quite open but no hay. There is a road planing track leading up a hill to a shelter that all 4 can fit in with rubber matting inside & some hardstanding plus a gravel area outside. This is where the hay is (for both human convenience & also in the interests of not churning the field up / having the horses stood in mud whilst they're scoffing). Take a wild guess as to where they spend most of their time?

If you guessed lazing about in / around the shelter with occasional ventures to the field for a few hours you'd be right! In an ideal world we'd like them to spend a bit more time moving about in the field & a bit less time milling about the shelter but I guess they're the ones choosing to do it, frustrating as it is when the sun is shining & they're behaving like teenagers that don't want to come out of their bedroom!
 
Turnout is a non negotiable NEED imo. It's not a want, or a maybe...it's a welfare issue.

I'm so so lucky to be able to have mine on 24/7 grass livery a mile from my house. Large field shelter, well maintained land (approx 4.5 acres), self filling water troughs, lots of natural shelter, storage shed, hay delivered to the door (massive bales), YO harrows and maintains the land.
No school, water, electric but really nice areas for hacking. Owner lives on site and we (friend and I) are the only liveries. Dirt cheap to boot ???
If my friend or I want to bath a horse we take it a mile in the other direction to her house and bath on her big gravel driveway ??
We are also withing 10-15 miles of our equine vet and several schools to hire etc.
 
milliepops said:
3 of them basically look after themselves ;) I think millie would happily lead the return to the wild tbh, they'd be totally self sufficient then! my biggest job with them is keeping the fencing up together ?

In the public interest, I'm hoping to trial a 6th this year. For research purposes, you see ?
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Oh no, not 6, that'll never work. *Shakes head and walks away tutting*

Don't you have to poo-pick for the 3 retirees? Surely that must take the best part of an hour a day, although I suppose your land is fairly flat there.
 
If you live in an area that has poor draining soil, or is just very wet, I used to live in a flood plain, you have to accept that you are not going to have a wonderfully green field to turn out on to. Land is so expensive, even poor wet land can sell for £10,000 and acre in a block, that what ever you are paying in livery is never going to make it a business proposition to buy more. With Gobal warming it could get worse, with extremes of weather.
This is why there has to be a compleat rethink of how horses are kept, what actually keeps them healthy and content, not what their various owners/or YO think works.
I my observation, I can see mine from my windows, a continous supply of forage and company, is the main requirment. Enough food for everyone, so one gets bullied off food. If you have the space that is great, and I think a free draining track is perhaps the best use of land to get the maxium amount of excercise, and then what land left over can be used for forage in the summer or dry weather.
I keep mine loose in open sheds, if they are not out. This cuts down on mucking out, space, concrete and cost. My shed were already here, remnants of a dairy farm but I had already decided that in an ideal world that is how I would want to keep them. A lot of money has been spent the study of dairy cow welfare, a content cow makes more milk and I think some of their conclusions are transferable. I have two loose boxes used for the vet, farrier etc but most of the time they are empty. I like half walls, I used to buy youngsters and the company of another horse is the best calmer there is.
I think a horse living in green fields most of their time is an ideal that for most horse owner unless they live in areas with lots of cheap land is no longer possible, so that why people end up being disatisfied, yard hopping and horses being stuck in if they are lucky 12x12 boxes with poor ventilation, which is not good for their welbeing.
I get emails from,https://thehorse.com/topics/farm-and-barn/, I find many very interesting as they show different ways of doing things and often publish results of research. We have to search for other solutions.
 
I am lucky enough to have horses at home, with enough ground that the 2 little ones can stay out 24/7 all year, and the other two come in at night for 5-6 months.

However I was on various yards for 15 years before that. One had good turnout, but we moved because the arena wasn't maintained. Another had trash paddocks for the winter which ended up mudbaths after 3 weeks, so we suffered through one winter and moved in the spring. Another had no winter turnout at all, which I had to cope with for 2 winters as a teenager (it was the only yard within cycling distance before I learnt to drive). As soon as I had my test he moved 20 min drive away to a farm where they went out every day.

We spent a lot of money on an all weather turnout area 2 years ago, so even if the fields were unusable, the horses could still get out for a while. Thankfully it hasn't been used much though.

Fiona
 
I do think that there is a world of difference between the quality of the stabling and turn out and it isn't enough to just say that turn out is paramount. I must admit that I feel unhappy for those horses who are turned out 24/7 but are in a mud bath of an exposed field, huddling around a round feeder with 1 bale of haylage in it, or alone in an electric fenced off tiny postage stamp of a field. I also feel unhappy for those horses who are mainly stabled and have small dark stables with nothing to look at or do. Both of these situations are worlds away from a mainly stabled horse who is kept on a busy yard, e.g. racing or competition or even the Police horses or Spanish School, where they are exercised and stimulated, both mentally and physically, and perhaps have an annual "holiday" turned out in a large field, or those field kept horses living in sociable herds and large diverse fields.
I think that if I was a horse, given a choice, I would prefer to be stabled and kept mentally and physically active, to being out in a boring square field or a mud bath 24/7.
My ideal would be access to big and airy open barns and either a track system over a large and varied terrain or a variety of fields that are rotated.
 
We need to move away from the idea of green field turnout. Green field turnout is not what horses need. Honeytpot has it about right. They need food, company and room to move about. Lush green grass looks pretty and owners like to see it, but its not doing the horse population any favours at all. I'm really hoping as more people ask for it, more yards will accommodate tracks and big barn "stabling". I would happily pay a premium for this. It's better for the horses, better for the land, and allows landowners to stock the yard much more densely but without compromising welfare.
 
My horse is happier spending more hours stabled, albeit in a courtyard where she can watch everyone at the barn, than she was when she was turned out all day in a muddy, wind-swept paddock. She had no shelter in that paddock, although the YOs insisted she had a hedge she could stand behind. Yes, there was a hedge, but there was about 3-4m of an adjacent paddock between her paddock and said hedge. If you are in a gale, and you stand 3-4m away from a hedge, or a rock, you will still be blasted by the gale. You need to be able to huddle against the thing, and my poor horse wasn't able to do that.
 
Tarragon said:
I do think that there is a world of difference between the quality of the stabling and turn out and it isn't enough to just say that turn out is paramount. I must admit that I feel unhappy for those horses who are turned out 24/7 but are in a mud bath of an exposed field, huddling around a round feeder with 1 bale of haylage in it, or alone in an electric fenced off tiny postage stamp of a field. I also feel unhappy for those horses who are mainly stabled and have small dark stables with nothing to look at or do. Both of these situations are worlds away from a mainly stabled horse who is kept on a busy yard, e.g. racing or competition or even the Police horses or Spanish School, where they are exercised and stimulated, both mentally and physically, and perhaps have an annual "holiday" turned out in a large field, or those field kept horses living in sociable herds and large diverse fields.
I think that if I was a horse, given a choice, I would prefer to be stabled and kept mentally and physically active, to being out in a boring square field or a mud bath 24/7.
My ideal would be access to big and airy open barns and either a track system over a large and varied terrain or a variety of fields that are rotated.
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Why would you think that a horse has evolved all its systems, sight , respiration etc, to live outside,would prefer to live inside? In its natural terain its sight is evolved to see long distances, it has peripheral vision to see preditors while it grazes, that's why they are so sensitive to movement.Its vision in front of its is poor. It would never huddle in a cave. Its nostrils used not only to intake air but also to smell danger,and a mare in season. Air flow is rarely considered when planning housing. We put them in a poorly ventilated box, add dust in forage, bedding , scruff from coats and wonder why its got a runny nose.
The idea of the boredom of huddling round a hay station in mud, well even on a nice day in spring mine stand at the water trough like old men at the bar, their method of interaction is not ours. When a flick of an ear says everything, why do more? The fact they are together all they need. Often their legs are locked, so they are essentaily resting standing up.I have looked after horses in old fashioned stalls and as a child wondered why they seemed settled. The fact that the could see their companions, and almost could touch them may have been a factor.
We have got so used to humanising horses that its normal to think that they 'think' like us. When really perhaps instinct is their overriding driving force. We habituate them to live under our terms, but is that the best for them?
I would say a horse is never happy in human terms, its either settled, not reacting to a stimulation that produces stress, or responding to a situation which triggers stress , flight resposes. We also know that equines may not show appparent stress but have raised heart beat, and indication of stress. Humans are never seeing the whole picture.
 
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I've been on various yards with varying facilities.
The one my horse was unhappiest at had it all...pretty stables, 2 schools, a walker, etc but he was so unhappy.

He and the others are all seemingly very happy where we are now, which is our own bit of an old farm with scrubby land and forest, looks a bit uncared for, no shelter/stables or school, but allows them to live completely naturally, plenty of trees for shelter, all sorts of different forage, out 24/7 in their little group of 3, with neighbouring mixed herd over the fence to see and touch.

They are the most chilled they've ever been, and welshie is much better behaved.
TB could probably do with a stable but he stresses and box walks, and is fine with 2 dinners a day and rugged with hay chucked in.
Must say...I'm probably the happiest as well lol, we may have no electric or toilet or anything else but we also do what we want, when we want, how we want.
 
Tarragon said:
I do think that there is a world of difference between the quality of the stabling and turn out and it isn't enough to just say that turn out is paramount. I must admit that I feel unhappy for those horses who are turned out 24/7 but are in a mud bath of an exposed field, huddling around a round feeder with 1 bale of haylage in it, or alone in an electric fenced off tiny postage stamp of a field. I also feel unhappy for those horses who are mainly stabled and have small dark stables with nothing to look at or do. Both of these situations are worlds away from a mainly stabled horse who is kept on a busy yard, e.g. racing or competition or even the Police horses or Spanish School, where they are exercised and stimulated, both mentally and physically, and perhaps have an annual "holiday" turned out in a large field, or those field kept horses living in sociable herds and large diverse fields.
I think that if I was a horse, given a choice, I would prefer to be stabled and kept mentally and physically active, to being out in a boring square field or a mud bath 24/7.
My ideal would be access to big and airy open barns and either a track system over a large and varied terrain or a variety of fields that are rotated.
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The trouble is, you're comparing the very best way of managing stabled horses - in full and proper work - and the very worst ways of managing turned out horses (in postage stamps alone or mud baths), which isn't a very fair comparison.

Most leisure horses who are kept in are not really worked, not like a working horse might be kept active, so it's not really relevant for the average yard catering to the average livery. Likewise it's not unreasonable to say that horses kept out alone / in tiny paddocks / on pure mud are being badly managed and should be kept on bigger acreage, with company, or with access to hard standing / tracks / better ground.
 
Pippity said:
I'm in the early stages of planning my move to Ireland, and I'm dreading the hunt for a livery yard. I'm pretty flexible on where I live (requirements: in easy commuting distance of an airport with direct flights to my office; I can afford to live there) but I need a yard that offers good turnout and, crucially, good livery services. I've got no idea where to even start looking!
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Whereabouts in ireland?

The better land for turn-out is eastern side, once youve gone west from tipperary youve gone too far.
South east counties are dry too.

Due to very wet climate coming off the atlantic, many liveries on the west wont offer 24/7/365. Even in summer 24/7 might not be offered.
In winter turn-out would be very limited, if offered at all.

I’d move east if i could choose again! Better suppliers for horsey stuff too.
West is cow and sheep country, like wales on steroids ;)
 
There are not nearly as many livery yards here as there are in the UK, but there are enough. Some competition yards will offer some places for livery, there are larger commercial yards with good facilities, mostly on the eastern half of the country as mentioned above. Most yards are showjumping or hunting orientated, I am more personally familiar with dressage yards - if you drop me a PM I can recommend some areas and people to contact.
 
My horse is interesting. She would much rather be out in the back field. Her options are shelter off a hard standing track with shavings bed and haylage, further along the track is round hay bale in a shed she can have ad lib and then the track ends and there’s a small paddock leading to a bigger back field. Left her unrugged today (she’s clipped with a high chaser) as temp was double figures. Tipped it down earlier then expected - still off in other field - wouldn’t come when called for dinner. Put her in shelter to dry off, couldn’t wait to go out again. Currently shut on hard standing track with ad lib hay overnight and access to all of it during the day. Any option she has her mini Shetland companion with her. Mini Shetland would probably spend more time in the shelter - but being close to my horse is top priority.
 
I’ve been on this forum many years now and have read so many posts on liveries and DIY. I’m very lucky in the fact my horses are on my family farm and I have someone who rents a field for their horse and have had others too. Often people want top facilities and recently a farrier turned someone I know down as she didn’t have a dry stable and yard! That’s not putting the horse first. Most horses would rather be out. I get people say ‘oh I don’t understand why you leave yours out as they’d much pref to be in a warm cosy stable’. No they wouldn’t. They are natives and one in particular would destroy and eat my stables until he was back out. Yes facilities do make it easier for people but sometimes at the detrimental effect to our horses. A neighbour was offering a 5ac paddock with great drainage, fences etc for £10 p w per horse same as I charge for basic grazing. Took a long time to get someone as there was no facilities, no yard only running water and a troff. The woman who is renting now is delighted as her horses have never been so happy and the riding is great here. You can always erect a shed, pop some slabs down or do things to make your life a little easier. But I wish people would put the horse first. I know some have no choice and feel for them people and the horses. A lot of livery now is all about max income pack the place out. This is exactly why I’ve been debating on setting up part livery or DIY here. Not for max profit but because working with rehabilitating and rescuing horses for several years for a welfare charity it taught me that too many people put themselves first not the horses and too many horses suffer in silence or end up with ulcers as they are shut away most of the time as the yard has a bloody solarium!!! I think a horse would choose to stand in the sun. A school is great yes but you can school out and about hacking to a extent, hire one or set one up in a field with electric fence tape and markers as I have. Can be moved if it starts getting too wet. There’s a lot you can do to make your basic places easier but the horse always comes first of you have a choice. Horses only get stable vices because we keep them un naturally.
 
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