Fox baiting

[PaulT]

Selective quotes taken completely out of context Fiagai, tut tut.

Of course if I were to do the same about far worse insults I've received, you'd argue that's completely different - you never were any good with the equal application of principles.

Run out of excuses for fox baiting and hunting?

 

[Ahunter]

"Whether or not they derive enjoyment, the fact remains that fox baiting involves setting one or more dogs on a trapped or restrained animal. Once a fox goes to ground, escape routes are typically blocked and a terrier is entered. Once the terrier locates the fox I don’t dispute that barking or a locator collar helps hunt servants find where both animals are to dig down"

You mentioned hunt servants with fox baiting, according to HM Government
they are carrying out legit pest control commonly know as terrier work.

You made up the term "Fox Baiting"and gave the definition to HM Government, it only shows you were clueless in the first place if you got your definition wrong.

 

[ThePinkPony]

Morning Janet, good of you to join us. I’m so glad there’s more than one pro hunter who has ignored attempts to close down debate on this subject when inconvenient truths are exposed.

It’s extremely difficult to get inside the minds of these people who participate in baiting so all we can do is speculate on their motives, as I doubt any of them are likely to say anything they consider incriminating or likely to put what they do in a bad light. Some may really think they’re performing some sort of useful function – possibly fox control – whereas I’ve little doubt that others derive considerable enjoyment from what they do. Who knows, perhaps both motives apply in some cases.
okay, i'll give you the most generic example. Night before last keeper has 79 poults killed outside a pen, charlie has left a lovely set of tracks across a drilled feild, right to her earth. 79 poults isnt much to lose, but if this happens every night until october then thats the whole pen of poults gone... = a bloody expensive dinner bill for charlie.

Last night, tonight and every night, keeper will be sat out until dark with his trusty .243, IF this fails and charlie waits until dark to inflict her damage then keeper will resort to getting his lovely patterdale terrier and giving her a little jolly down a dark hole. This particular terrier has not one scar on her pretty little head, as this particular terrier does not touch said charlie, or allow herself to be touched.

Now, keeper doesnt want to have to do this, he has poults towood and would much rather his attention be on other things, but this is priority number one, you know, keeping his family in house and home etc.

Keeper is hoping muchly that terrier will be dropped in, charlie will run out the ohter side and the shotgun can make short work of a rather laborious job.

Does that give you an idea? mind you that story (true by the way) doesnt apply to ''fox baiting'' as it is a made up term.

Whether or not they derive enjoyment, the fact remains that fox baiting involves setting one or more dogs on a trapped or restrained animal.

one dog... get it right PaulT

Once a fox goes to ground, escape routes are typically blocked and a terrier is entered. Once the terrier locates the fox I don’t dispute that barking ahem... baying, not ''barking''... well one is a stickler for using the correct term... oops, not you, i mean me or a locator collar helps hunt servants hunt servants.. oh again i see you only really care if it includes that word..because obviously only hunt supporters kill foxes dont they find where both animals are to dig down. They may even cleanly despatch the fox, once located with a humane killer (then again, they may botch the killing, as happened to the fox mentioned earlier in the post-mortem report). i wonder if you spared that thought for your sunday roast, as other have said.. these things happenThat isn’t the point at issue; my main objection is what is likely to happen when the terrier confronts the fox. As you know, it can take a considerable time for hunt servants to dig down and locate both terrier and fox. In some cases I believe a dig out has lasted hours rather than minutes. yes, A. because a fox doesnt just sit on its bum waiting to be dug... and B, slow diggersWe are all expected to believe there is simply a standoff between fox and terrier in the confines of the earth! Even if the terrier is exceptionally well trained not to attack in such a situation, I doubt the fox is similarly disciplined. so really in a court of law its charlies fault because he attacked terrier first... for crying out loud what do you think happens when a rather rude charle decides that lowly old brocks sett looks like a comfy bed for the night... a STAND OFF, because this is how predators fight, they size eachother up and wait, there are more 'walk aways' than there are fights, good old david attenborough can tell you that.

Herne earlier mentioned that occasionally the animals get into a ‘scrap’. I would regard the confrontation as part and parcel of the activity of baiting, and it amounts to far more than a simple ‘scrap’. Just because the baiting is out of sight it doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.animals fight, if it were two dog foxes the same would occasionally happen The post-mortem evidence posted earlier, which was carried out for Burns, showed that one of the foxes dug out had multiple bite wounds on the face and the top of the head; damage to the right eye; and bite wounds, haemorrhage and oedema in the region of the larynx and lower neck. yes, evident of canines fightingThese injuries didn’t kill the fox, and they were the result of a so-called ‘scrap’ with a terrier during a dig out lasting 25minutes. yes and you do realise that the majority of this was most likely the terrier or the fox holding the other in its jaws, if you are going to over dramatise things and all No mention is made if the terrier was injured during the baiting. no, because lets face it PaulT, you dont give a flying fig if the terrier was bitten, mortally wounded or even dead because it isnt ginger and it doesnt have a long bushy tailGod only know what injuries are inflicted on fox, and possibly terrier, during dig outs which last over an hour. well from past experience, which is quite evidently more than you can claim to, neither dog or fox have come out with wounds... OCCASIONALLY there is a little nick in the ear or charlie has grabnbed terriers nose, but they are superficial and completely unnoticed by either side. none of my dogs have ever been badly injured by a fox, or anyone i know who partakes in terrierwork. Theres more chance of injury from a rat than a fox, because foxes dont work that way!

As far as I can see, none of this breaches the NFWT code – it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. neither is the hunting act, but you lot seem to hail that as if it were the holy grailEven if it were possible to provide training lessons to terrier and fox on how to behave in a nice way to each other before each dig out, who is going to make sure everything that takes place is above board and according to the code? Don’t tell me, the terriermen and their friends! yes, because its their dog at the end of the day, in some instances the little ball of fur thats curled up in front of the fire most nights, and just for your sake PaulT, who wants a dog that gets itself bashed up and needs weeks of rest and stitches, when there is work to be done every day?

If this form of animal baiting was carried out above ground, in full view, it would have been made illegal years ago. well it is, in a completely different way in the form of fox hunting with hounds and horses...um...durrrrrrrr

that enough for you, although my answers arent particularly directed at you, just for anyone else who happens on this thread, and hopefully realises just whow ignorant and uneducated to this you actually are.

 

[combat_claire]

I’m so glad there’s more than one pro hunter who has ignored attempts to close down debate on this subject when inconvenient truths are exposed.

Not at all, the reason I have not responded on this thread is that I have very limited knowledge of terrier work, so I feel I am poorly qualified to answer your posts. Knowing my limitations is not the same as attempting to close down debate as you well know; much as fox baiting is not terrier work!

 

[PaulT]

that enough for you, although my answers arent particularly directed at you, just for anyone else who happens on this thread, and hopefully realises just whow ignorant and uneducated to this you actually are.

OK PP, you’re clearly a connoisseur of fox baiting. I’ll try to deal with some of your more lucid (and relevant) remarks, and resist the temptation to snigger at your references to ignorance and being uneducated.

The immediate thought which springs to mind is what is your keeper friend doing to prevent the fox getting at his poults in the first place? Anyway, to the topic at hand.

…this particular terrier does not touch said charlie, or allow herself to be touched…

…for crying out loud what do you think happens when a rather rude charle decides that lowly old brocks sett looks like a comfy bed for the night... a STAND OFF, because this is how predators fight, they size eachother up and wait, there are more 'walk aways' than there are fights, good old david attenborough can tell you that.

Tell me, in the fox baiting situation associated with hunts, how is the fox supposed to ‘walk aways’ when the escape route is blocked by a terrier at one end and earth, rocks and sundry debris at the other? If you believe a cornered fox, let alone the terrier, will just ‘size eachother up’ for half an hour, or an hour, or who knows how long, you must be even more puerile than your posts suggest.

OCCASIONALLY there is a little nick in the ear or charlie has grabnbed terriers nose, but they are superficial and completely unnoticed by either side

Bearing in mind you posted this in response to the post-mortem evidence where a dug out fox had its face, head, eye and neck savaged by a hunt terrier, the absurdity of your comments are clearly lost on you. You are impervious to any evidence which contradicts the gibberish you would like others to believe.

PP, the most comical aspect of all is how readily you, of all people, are willing to treat readers to this thread as complete and utter idiots. I don’t expect the irony of this to in any way sink home, but a few others will know exactly what I mean.

 

[Ahunter]

Tell me, in the fox baiting situation associated with hunts...

Correction,

Tell me, Terrier work asscociated with hunts...

You made up the term "Fox Baiting"and gave the definition to HM Government,it only shows you were clueless in the first place if you got your definition wrong.

 

[JanetGeorge]

my main objection is what is likely to happen when the terrier confronts the fox. As you know, it can take a considerable time for hunt servants to dig down and locate both terrier and fox. In some cases I believe a dig out has lasted hours rather than minutes. We are all expected to believe there is simply a standoff between fox and terrier in the confines of the earth! Even if the terrier is exceptionally well trained not to attack in such a situation, I doubt the fox is similarly disciplined.

Normally there IS just a stand-off - there isn't space for much else. And good hunt terriers are 'soft' terriers who will stand their ground - and bark and snarl - but who won't attack. In visiting MANY hunts in my earlier career - and always taking an interest in the terriers - I rarely saw a scarred terrier! In fact, one hunt terrier man I know uses the SAME terriers to work foxes as his wife takes to Crufts (and wins with!!) Not a scar on any of them!

And foxes - believer it or not - are NOT stupid! They will only fight if they have to. They will snarl - and threaten - but in the confined space of whatever tunnel they have chosen to go to ground in, they won't attack.

In the hill countries they tend to use tougher (hard) terriers because digging is not always possible - and a 'soft' terrier would stay under until he and the fox died - or until they'd had to bring in dynamite to blast half a mountain away! And it's in the hill countries where terrier work is ESSENTIAL for fox control!

And no hunt terrierman (or experienced keeper) blocks ALL exits before putting a terrier to ground - just because stand-offs happen and tie people up for hours! You net one or more exits and HOPE that the terrier drives the fox to exit there - where he can be quickly despatched. Most hunt terriermen would FAR rather NOT have to dig (it's bloody hard work!)

 

[rosie fronfelen]

Selective quotes taken completely out of context Fiagai, tut tut.

Of course if I were to do the same about far worse insults I've received, you'd argue that's completely different - you never were any good with the equal application of principles.

Run out of excuses for fox baiting and hunting?

where has boy wonder disappeared to, under the bridge?

 

[EAST KENT]

where has boy wonder disappeared to, under the bridge?

Just being a good little Troll. Do hope this oh so boring he/she or it stays there..or drowns even

 

[Alec Swan]

Just being a good little Troll. Do hope this oh so boring he/she or it stays there..or drowns even

That's what we need, in this world, a few more like you, E_K, with a good, old fashioned christian approach to life!!

Alec.

 

[EAST KENT]

Abso bloody lutely Alec..it`s hot..hate tennis..made a suggestion as to how to usefully shed some trolls and enjoy doing it. Life`s too short to bother with things that just need a good swat.
Now, off to do the Church flowers........

 

[rosie fronfelen]

Just being a good little Troll. Do hope this oh so boring he/she or it stays there..or drowns even

Iused to like trolls as a kid, with their sticky up hair and ugly faces- do you think they have changed?

 

[ThePinkPony]

Iused to like trolls as a kid, with their sticky up hair and ugly faces- do you think they have changed?

Ask PaulT....

Do they have mirrors under bridges.

 

[EAST KENT]

Probably moved on now to a steriotype the same but sort of greeny `Golom stuff added in..sexless of course,assuming (Praise be!) they don`t procreate. No mirrors ,sure of that one,,it`d frighten `em too much. Wonder if they guard "preciouses" under there?

 

[rosie fronfelen]

Ask PaulT....

Do they have mirrors under bridges.

its done a bunk i reckon.

 

[Alec Swan]

its done a bunk i reckon.

Or been debunked. Or perhaps, being dim, took The PP's suggestion literally, assumed that water would reflect their image, and got themselves flattened by the 4.15 from Swansea to Paddington. Perhaps someone should have explained that bridges don't just span rivers! Mind you, it would have been pointless, he's listened to little else.

Alec.

 

[EAST KENT]

Or been debunked. Or perhaps, being dim, took The PP's suggestion literally, assumed that water would reflect their image, and got themselves flattened by the 4.15 from Swansea to Paddington. Perhaps someone should have explained that bridges don't just span rivers! Mind you, it would have been pointless, he's listened to little else.

Alec.

Oh Laudy..flat baked Troll PMSL thanks Alec

 

[Fiagai]

...just love it when threads take on a life of their own....

ref: Alecs & EKs flat baked (t)rolls

Anyone have any recipes?

 

[EAST KENT]

Pepper well with rock salt loaded cartridges...

 

[Dobiegirl]

What are you lot like. You are like a lot of kids deprived of their ball.

You wont be happy until he comes back.

 

[EAST KENT]

We are all enjoying a hunt here...casting about at the mo`......

 

[rubysmum]

if anyone would like to instigate a bit of fox baiting towards the very large urban fox on my street who recently chased my [ admittedly quite camp] terrier down the street - i suspect he would be grateful as his street cred is at a low ebb at the moment

 

[ThePinkPony]

if anyone would like to instigate a bit of fox baiting towards the very large urban fox on my street who recently chased my [ admittedly quite camp] terrier down the street - i suspect he would be grateful as his street cred is at a low ebb at the moment

Bloody hell dont let PaulTit see that, he'll spend another two days writing a condescending and factually incorrect essay on how a fox would NEVER EVER IN A GIZILLION YEARS instigate violence towards any other creature!!!

 

[rubysmum]

tell him to come & meet Mr Fox [ think MrT from the Ateam] who grows fat on a diet of rabbits & guinea pigs

 

[EAST KENT]

if anyone would like to instigate a bit of fox baiting towards the very large urban fox on my street who recently chased my [ admittedly quite camp] terrier down the street - i suspect he would be grateful as his street cred is at a low ebb at the moment

Gosh ,our poisonous little lakeland would just be the job for that,he`d think all his Christmases had come at once! Reggie`s your man..but he`s poisonous enough to give your terrier an even lower opinion of himself ,being so bloomin` macho

 

[rosie fronfelen]

What are you lot like. You are like a lot of kids deprived of their ball.

You wont be happy until he comes back.

so where is the gutless wonder,making patta cakes-bless?

 

[EAST KENT]

Gone to ground..which is where my terriers come into the picture I think.

 

[TJP]

Thepinkpony PaulT would have been welcome to come see the mess foxy left in my sandschool after what I assume must have been a 'play date' with my hens. No doubt it wasn't his fault 2 are dead. Don't think Paul & I would see eye to eye on this one lol

 

[Archina]

Its pretty shameful how rude you lot are and it seems anyone who disagree's with you gets labelled a troll. Its called the Hunting Forum, not the Pro Hunting Forum. The kids i teach to ride are more mature.

 

[A1fie]

Archina - not everyone who is anti hunting is labelled a troll. It's just some posters seem to post inflamatory remarks or ask questions with no real interest in hearing another point of view.

Most people who are pro-hunting on this forum will take the time to answer any question a poster has and do so politely and thoroughly. But for example on this thread where it's been explained many times that terrierwork is not fox baiting, why it's not baiting and what terrier work is, it is difficult not to get frustrated when posters accuse hunters of lying about their experience and/or getting a thrill out of it.

I don't think anyone on here thinks that everyone who is anti-hunting is a troll, but some posters clearly are trolls because they just post comments designed to wind people up.