foxes

Ereiam_jh

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Our local hunt has bought an eagle, just to be safe...

The hunt came round to our place the other day, I was out with my dogs. The hounds were in one of my willow coppices having a good old search for the 'trail' which someone had 'laid'. There was a fox on the hedge bank about three metres in front of us which stood and stared at us for about 20 seconds and then ran back into the coppice where the hounds were. My dogs didn't even notice it, DOH! I then spend about twenty minutes with the hounds and two of my dogs trying to find the fox, great fun and not a huntsman in sight. In fact my border collie Jed, being carefully trained to go after anything in a fur coat spent most of the time chasing the fox hounds; giving them a dose of their own medicine. We never found Charlie, which was a shame but still never mind.

:(

I then met up with the huntsman and directed him to let the hounds hunt all over the Ereiam Estates. Maybe someone had laid a trail somewhere that they could follow. Although somehow I very much doubt it.

I don't think they ever found that 'trail' I'm not sure about Charlie though, maybe they had a bit more luck with him.

I'm happy to let the foxhounds on my land but I wouldn't like to think there was some chap wandering round with a sock soaked in foxes pee.

:D
 

echodomino

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The hunt I went with in (Jan this year) caught two foxes if not three. The hounds are allowed to flush but not to kill hence the guns - though the terriers were still around.

The guy who put the poxy ban through in the first place has actually realised now that it has done more harm than good and that it should have been left alone and has put it on a list of things to be repealed. I know this because we had an email through with a vote on what we wanted to see go up for repeal.

I'm neither here nor there, I can see why it's done and have been on both a drag and a proper and I can say 100% sure that a drag isn't a patch on a proper hunt, there's no excitement in following a pre laid trail. It just doesn't have the same atmosphere as a proper hunt.

Foxes are vermin and I'd far rather that they were dealt with in this manner than if they were trapped, gassed or shot and left to die from infections. You have to have a bloody good shot to kill one out right whilst it's in motion. Yet it is effectively instant once the hounds reach it. Far more humane in my eyes.

I've seen what damage they do to game - they had all of the chickens down on my old yard and left them, they kill for what they want then kill the rest for the hell of it - or at least it seems that way when your yard is covered in massacred chickens. One also got in the farm next door and had the geese too, and I don't mean a few pets I mean mass amounts of birds.

ILF: I think you need to find something better and more fulfilling to do in your spare time.
 

magic104

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I think you mean
THE THREE BILLIE GOATS GRUFF
In the country sides of Norway there was a troll that lived under a bridge that led to a prairie filled with grasses and flowers. This troll was a mean and nasty troll.
 

AmyMay

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Once upon a time there were three billy goats, who were to go up to the hillside to make themselves fat, and the name of all three was "Gruff."

On the way up was a bridge over a cascading stream they had to cross; and under the bridge lived a great ugly troll , with eyes as big as saucers, and a nose as long as a poker.

So first of all came the youngest Billy Goat Gruff to cross the bridge.

"Trip, trap, trip, trap! " went the bridge.

"Who's that tripping over my bridge?" roared the troll .
 

mollymurphy

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Use the art of proper debate and literacy to press your point. I, for one, am always interested in a good debate...actually I love debate, so fire away with all your reasons for stating what you have said in your opening comment.

Hi Tia,

I think ILF has given up, but i'm always up for a debate....as long as you all promise to be nice and not gang up on me!!! And i will spell to the best of my ability!!!

This is just my opinion - i love animals, but i'm no animal rights activist - i'm not even a veggie! I do however only eat British meat, and wouldn't touch anything from a battery chicken. This is why i don't really have a problem with shooting birds (as long as their shooters actually eat them and dont waste them) - they've lived totally natural lives, and are killed pretty humanely. I DO have a problem with people who kill just for the hell of it (for example, stag hunters who just want to mount the head above their fireplace and say "look what i shot"! I also have MAJOR problems with bull fighting, whaling, etc., but that's another debate!!!)

Right, i USED to have the opinion (before i started riding) that fox hunters were stuck-up snobs who were sick in the head and ENJOYED watching the dogs kill the foxes. Since then, i've researched a lot more, and i can now see where you're all coming from.

I understand that they can be a pest and therefore need their numbers controlling (although our roads seem to do a fairly good job of this!) Do hunters want them in this country AT ALL, or do they just want LESS of them? I think it would be a shame to loose one of our most popular British wild mammals. And when you say they're "vermin", could someone please define this for me? I thought vermin were just animals who spread disease - is this the case with foxes? What about badgers and bovine TB?

As for the "it's our heritage / tradition" thing, surely this can't be used as an excuse? Otherwise we'd still have slaves, women wouldn't have rights, etc.

I was always told that when foxes get into a chicken coup for example, that they kill everything, take what they can, and when they get the chance will come back for the rest to store it for winter. They're not killing just because they "feel like", but because they need to eat...like everything else. What if we lived in Africa - would you kill lions / tigers / elephants, etc.?

Do hunts go on at all during breeding seasons? Because i'd hate to think the parents were killed and the babies had to starve to death.

I know someone said earlier in this post something along the lines of "why can't we do to them what they do to their own prey", which is true in a way, but their prey is usually rather a lot smaller than themselves, meaning a quick kill bite to the back of the neck is simple and the animal suffers very little, if at all. Dogs however are a similar size to a fox, and get themselves so excited they all just pile in and rip the fox apart (after chasing it for however long and stressing it out). Personnally, if i had to choose a way to die myself, i would rather be shot and injured and take a while to die than be ripped to pieces by a pack of dogs. It just seems like a horrible way to die. And that's what my main problem is.

On a different note, I was really impressed at a recent horse show when i watched a parade of hounds and the master knew all their names! I assumed they never had any, and that if they did, only the kennel man would know them!

I also understand how useful hunts are when it comes to taking care of fallen stock, etc.

I'd be really interested to know how many dogs / horses are lost during hunts as a result of RTA's / fall injuries.

That's all i can think of for now.

I know you've all probably had this discussion millions of times before, but i'm fairly new here and have never had the chance to speak to a real-life hunter!

Now remember... please be nice! :grin:

Louise. x :)
 

Ereiam_jh

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"Do hunters want them in this country AT ALL, or do they just want LESS of them? "

Every one has a different point of view.

Personally I'd like to see more healthy foxes and less sickly ones.
 

k9h

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Vermin is a term applied to various species regarded as pests or nuisances, and especially to those associated with the carrying of disease. Since the term is defined in relation to human activities, which species are included will vary from area to area and even person to person. The term itself derives from the Latin vermis, meaning worm, and originally had reference to the vermiform larvae of certain insects, many of which infest foodstuffs.[1]

Disease-carrying rodents and insects are the usual case but the term is also applied to larger animals, on the basis that they exist out of balance with a desired environment, consuming excessive resources. Pigeons, which have been widely introduced in urban environments, may be considered vermin, or, pejoratively, "flying rats."

The term is also used as an extremely pejorative characterization of a particular class or group of people as inferior and subhuman, and often considered social parasites. Application of the term can be wide, having been applied over the centuries in different languages, to various groups, and its use is usually based on a perception that the target group's views are "disease-like," or that such groups exist out of sociological balance with the common society.
 

buzzles

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'I'd be really interested to know how many dogs / horses are lost during hunts as a result of RTA's / fall injuries.'

I wouldn't go out with the local drag hunt as it is basically a 3 hour non stop gallop. Some of the people who hunt build fences on their land for the hunt and they are so dangerous, like nothing you would come across naturally, one of them calls his the assault course and another prided himself on the fact that he built over 100 jumps on one hunt. It was run on land beside ours and when I watched it only half the horses who started finished and the ones that were still there were on their knees they were so tired, they could hardly raise a trot. I am amazed at the amount of horses who are killed or broken up or injured with the drag hunt compared to the proper hunts. Horses die of heart attacks and broken legs or necks. Many others are seriously injured.
 

buzzles

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'well a good horseman knows when heir own horse has had enough. they should all know their horses abilities and capabilities'

they should, but they don't! It's quite an urban hunt in that many of the members live in city/subarbs, keep their horse on full livery so they haven't a clue how to look after it, and the only time the see it/ride it is to hunt or else they use hirelings. Some of them are businessmen who decided they wanted to hunt, never mind the fact they can't ride and never learned to! They spend a few hours in the pub getting drunk before hand and then another few hours after to help them recover. If the horse is lucky they hire someone to bring it to the meet and they arrive in their sports car, if its not so lucky they race along in their brand new jeep and trailer, and leave the horse standing in the trailer after the hunt while they go to the pub! To them a horse is a commodity and if it gets broken up they just buy another one. These people aren't horseman, thats the problem, they're lucky if they survive, never mind the horse. Most of the horses are saints for putting up with them. Ok these are still the minority but in general the hunt is badly run and the hounds are always in quite a poor state. I suppose this compares to the other rural hunts who are proper hunts, I just think they respect their hounds, horses and the countryside more.
 

Tia

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I have to agree that Drag Hunts are far more taxing on horse and rider than foxhunts...in my opinion. They are fast and furious...that's why I like them. I did go foxhunting years ago and to be perfectly honest I found it dull and a bit boring....all that standing around. Nah give me a good drag hunt any day. *smile*
 

Tia

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I have a magnificent 16 point buck which resides part-time on my farm. He is absolutely spectacular. I also have a bow-hunter who boards his horse on my farm ...... however I have never told him where this buck mooches around and have forbidden him to kill this deer as I know fine well that the whole point of killing this particular deer would be to have him mounted because his meat would be no good. This is my main reason for not wishing him to be killed. If at any point in time I saw that he had gone downhill or looked malnourished then yes I would tell a couple of trusted rifle and bow hunters where his haunts were and I would expect them to go for a clean kill.

I did, however, give him the go-ahead to kill a rogue wolf which was bothering us. Most wolves stay away from humans but this one was coming too close for comfort and had he not killed it with his bow then we would have with our shotgun.

I actually love foxes to look at. I think they are quite beautiful ..... however I didn't think that when I lived in the UK and had chickens. I built a fox-proof house for mine and never lost a chicken even though mine were all totally free-range. Both of my neighbours were not so lucky.

Most of the foxhunters I knew back in England were not stuck up - they were just regular people.

Over here, there are hunting seasons and no-one ever hunts outwith these seasons as the punishments are incredibly harsh if they do. The hunting seasons never interfere with the breeding season and they do not start until way after the young have been weaned.

I am not a foxhunter though, I drag hunt although over here I don't do anything - just keep my gun handy incase of bears or wolves.
 

wrighty

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"I built a fox-proof house for mine and never lost a chicken even though mine were all totally free-range. Both of my neighbours were not so lucky."

Losing chickens has nothing to do with luck, you have said you built a fox-proof house and you lost none, if farmers paid that little bit more on their protection there would be no problems, but that would take away 1 excuse for people to hunt the fox.
 

Ereiam_jh

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The best excuse to hunt the fox is to maintain a heathy, vigorous fox population.

Give me hunting rather than shooting anytime.

Regarding shooting regimes vs hunting regimes. Its not that we anthropomorphise too much. It's that we don't anthropomorphise enough.

From the fox's point of view, taking a rational decision you would be completely crazy to choose a regime of shooting over a regime of hunting.

Why choose something that:
a) kills far more
b) wounds far more
c) Kills weak and old in equal measure
d) You simply do not understand how to evade

Besides, you've had you law, thay are still doing it and the law will shortly be repealed. Basically they've campaigned for 70 years for a ban, it hasn't worked, no one really gives a toss, so [****] off and shut up.

:)
 

Eagle_day

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"Dogs however are a similar size to a fox, and get themselves so excited they all just pile in and rip the fox apart (after chasing it for however long and stressing it out). Personnally, if i had to choose a way to die myself, i would rather be shot and injured and take a while to die than be ripped to pieces by a pack of dogs. It just seems like a horrible way to die. And that's what my main problem is."

If that's your main problem, then it's based on a misconception. I've seen dozens of foxes killed by hounds and it was ALWAYS instantaneous. Foxhounds are much bigger than foxes and killed with a single bite. When hounds broke up a fox, it was already dead. "Ripped to pieces while still alive" is the most common antis' myth, and it is a lie.
 

JamesMason

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I have just logged onto this and I'm a little baffled.
Firstly my position is one of shooter and hunt follower/ supporter. This is due to the fact that I'm disabled and will never be able to ride.
With regards to killing foxes, I have seen hounds kill a fox up close. It was quick, there was no noise of pain etc from the fox which suggests the first hond killed the fox outright before it really knew what was going on. ANY dog/s will kill quickly and efficiently if they are size matched. Terriers will tear apart rats, but no-one complains there as they are not as attractive as a rural fox. Foxes do need controling, huntiong takes the weak, old and sick. Yes there is a chase, but what animal that dies for sport, vermin control or the food on your plate, does not endure some stress or disruption to its life before it dies?
As a shooting man I always shoot to my ability. Yes I can take foxes at stupidly long ranges but I dont for there well being. Leaving an injured animal, no matter what it is is the mark of a poor and undeserving sportaman/woman. I can not see at night which are the weak or old foxes, but I can hazard a guess while they are moving. The hounds will rarely catch a healthy young fox in its prime, thus ensuring the strength of the breed. Deer stalkers leave the good beasts as a way of improving stock and removing diseased and weak animals. Hounds do the same without knowing it.
For those that cant stomach the though of an animal being killed, perhaps you should take a look at your whole life in general, as you will probably be the cause of something suffering more than any fox caught by hounds. I see less foxes now that I ever did during legal hunting. The ones I see are not the well fed, well groomed once of the past. Some are town foxes dumped by the idiots that are the RSPCA and the like, suffering because they do not know how to survive the harsh realities of the countryside. I will continue to shoot these shortly after they have been "released" to prevent their suffering.
Sorry to rant but I love all wildlife and understand the need to control some to benefit others. I can not stand those that pretend to understand animal welfare without stepping into the mud and watching the world go by.
 

wrighty

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"but no-one complains there as they are not as attractive as a rural fox"
Yes people do complain, some people think all killing of animals is wrong.

"but I love all wildlife"
Why do so mant hunters say this? If you loved wildlife you wouldn't kill it.

"understand the need to control some to benefit others"
We humans always seem to know best, so why is Australia suffering from too many toads, Scotish islands too many hedgehogs, (the list goes on) ? Because WE thought we know better than nature. Nature will always balance, we mess it up.

"hunting takes the weak, old and sick"
We dont do this to humans so why animals, as a disabled person I thought you would understand this more than most.
 
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