french link snaffles

[Meredith]

I have read the new ruling and some of the opposite views expressed on the web recently.
Has anyone a link to diagrams of the action of a french link ( and possibly a Dr Bristol, for comparison) when it is in use in a horse’s mouth. i.e. when the reins are engaged?
( ? ref to another thread)
I am struggling to imagine exactly how the bits turn in the mouth depending on the tongue and rein movement.
Thanks

 

[Otherwise]

https://www.thegaitpost.com/dr-bristol-vs-french-link/ this article is quite interesting, it has a couple of diagrams of the bit in use. I've always been taught that a Dr Bristol is harsher as the edge of the plate acts on the tongue but then I've had people tell me a hanging cheek has poll pressure so maybe it was one of those myths.

This is the patent for the Dr Bristol the article refers to.

 

[Meredith]

Thanks.
If I understand the pictures correctly the plate in a DB stays flat on the tongue because of the angle of the bit on the bit rings.
The angle on the FL therefore turns the plate so the edge of the plate digs into the tongue.
I was taught that the DB was more harsh than a FL
I read somewhere that Dr Bristol’s thinking was ahead of it’s time.
Looking at pictures of both bits it is often unclear what the angle the hole in the arm of the bit is set.

This is what prompted my question.

 

[ester]

Having read the american version I think everyone has their own terminology.
I would only consider a Dr bristol one with the plate at an angle, but to some of them it is anything with a flat oval (as opposed to dog bone) shaped centre link.

It does seem to me like they are very keen to ensure wording works for new types/makes of bits but they are struggling with the originals!

 

[Kaylum]

Neue Schule did loads of research on the french link which is why they made the team up bit.

 

[Meredith]

Having read the american version I think everyone has their own terminology.
I would only consider a Dr bristol one with the plate at an angle, but to some of them it is anything with a flat oval (as opposed to dog bone) shaped centre link.

It does seem to me like they are very keen to ensure wording works for new types/makes of bits but they are struggling with the originals!

I agree.
I have struggled to find picture of what I knew as a Dr Bristol. i.e. with the arms offset so the plate was at an angle. All the modern ones with a rectangular plate seem to be set straight like a French Link when the bit is laid flat. The only difference that I can see in the 2 bits now is the shape of the plate.
Am I missing something?

 

[milliepops]

I have an old fangled Eldonian Dr Bristol, it is definitely set on an angle. I don't think you're missing anything. I think the FEI is going a bit nuts though.

I have one that pulls a face with every lozenge bit I've ever tried (NS, Sprenger, all sorts) and is best in the mouth with a french link so I am just hoping this won't be contagious.

 

[Meredith]

I use a hanging cheek FL for local dressage and a lozenge universal for more exciting stuff. I don’t think either me or my horse are advanced enough to bother about the new rules but being a pernickety sort of person the opposing views intrigued me.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Difference between the two is quite clear here I think? It isnt just the shape of the middle part obviously - it is how the side sections of the mouth piece are set and how the middle section links into it. Personally whatever the powers that be have decided in their infinite wisdom I will still continue to use the good old stand by French link for my own horses from time to time and offer it as a useful alternative to my customers. Providing they aren't competing at that level of course!

 

[Meredith]

Difference between the two is quite clear here I think? It isnt just the shape of the middle part obviously - it is how the side sections of the mouth piece are set and how the middle section links into it. Personally whatever the powers that be have decided in their infinite wisdom I will still continue to use the good old stand by French link for my own horses from time to time and offer it as a useful alternative to my customers. Providing they aren't competing at that level of course! View attachment 41561

Oh thank you. You have found the pictures I searched for.
I wish I could imagine how they sit and rotate on the tongue, but I can’t.

 

[Frumpoon]

I'm devastated, I've been a life long fan of the French link thinking it was was soft and humane and sat nicely in the mouth.....lozenges are a relatively new invention

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I am scurrying about here in the depths of my pc as I KNOW I have some somewhere that I used when talking to my manufacturer about making some FL's for me. I will post them up if I can find them

 

[Melody Grey]

I was also brought up thinking the French link was quite a mild, general bit whereas the Dr Bristol was much harsher. I assume that with the French link, applying pressure puts the flat link with the big surface area onto the tongue and the Dr. Bristol kind of scoops the angle back against the tongue?

 

[milliepops]

I was also brought up thinking the French link was quite a mild, general bit whereas the Dr Bristol was much harsher. I assume that with the French link, applying pressure puts the flat link with the big surface area onto the tongue and the Dr. Bristol kind of scoops the angle back against the tongue?

If I had enough hands I'd take a picture of it in my horse's mouth ? the french link sits with the edge of the link on the tongue.

 

[jules9203]

Neue Schule have definitely done some research on this, including taking x rays of the two bits in the horses mouth and the change created by rein pressure. I can't find it at the moment but have read it! It did change the way I had thought about the two bits

 

[Melody Grey]

If I had enough hands I'd take a picture of it in my horse's mouth ? the french link sits with the edge of the link on the tongue.

Haha- explains why I've never had a control issue with my hot headed welshie who works beautifully in a french link! ?

 

[milliepops]

People say the link sits flat on the tongue but something weird would have to happen in order for that to be the case ? I was peeking into her mouth the other day for a different reason and it def sits with the edge on the tongue.

 

[Meredith]

People say the link sits flat on the tongue but something weird would have to happen in order for that to be the case ? I was peeking into her mouth the other day for a different reason and it def sits with the edge on the tongue.

I see how the FL would turn when in use.
I read somewhere that Dr Bristol had intended that the link would lie flat when in use but I struggle to see how a link set at an angle would lie flat.

 

[milliepops]

The gaitpost article in post 2 has pretty good diagrams that explain it I think. You can fit the dr Bristol the correct way and also back to front which changes the way it sits.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Neue Schule have definitely done some research on this, including taking x rays of the two bits in the horses mouth and the change created by rein pressure. I can't find it at the moment but have read it! It did change the way I had thought about the two bits

if you find pics of those xrays please can you post them as I have only ever seen diagrams put out by NS apparently proving how their turtle bits are much more useful than either a FL or a DB. Wasn't that convinced by the line drawings to be honest as far as the FL type were concerned, the line drawings indicating rein contact through the loose ring to either type of bit were not accurate IMHO.

And I also imagine one would need a good many xrays at almost an endless variant degree of rein contact and horse head position etc. etc. to see an honest and unbiased definitive answer?

 

[Meredith]

The gaitpost article in post 2 has pretty good diagrams that explain it I think. You can fit the dr Bristol the correct way and also back to front which changes the way it sits.

Yes I saw the difference but the example shows a Dr Bristol without the offset link. It is very similar to the FL shown the only difference I can see is the angle of the bit ring and the lozenge shape.
Is it just that only very old DB’s had the offset link and more modern, possibly mass manufactured ones haven’t?

 

[milliepops]

If you dont look at the tongue but look instead at where the big rings are sitting in relation to the link, I think this does show an angled plate

 

[Meredith]

If you dont look at the tongue but look instead at where the big rings are sitting in relation to the link, I think this does show an angled plate View attachment 41565

I see what you mean in that diagram however the DB’s I used many years ago had the arms offset so that the link would never lie flat even when laid on a table. i.e. the rings on the arms on either side the link were at angles to each other.

 

[Melody Grey]

I see what you mean in that diagram however the DB’s I used many years ago had the arms offset so that the link would never lie flat even when laid on a table. i.e. the rings on the arms on either side the link were at angles to each other.

Yes, this was my understanding too, hence thinking it the harsher of the two.

 

[milliepops]

I think that's what the image is showing though. My old DB is an eggbut, if you put it on a table the rings lie flat and the link is at an angle, I think this is what the picture illustrates but with a loose ring.

The top pic being a FL would have the link flat when the rings were.

 

[Melody Grey]

http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/brisfren.php

Just googled and found this which explains my understanding of the difference far better than I can!!

 

[Meredith]

Looking at post 9 you can see the link is joined to the arms differently in the 2 bits but the FL is flat whilst the DB lies at an angle. Each side mirrors the other.
In the bits I used ages ago the turn was opposite so the link laid with a sideways turn.

http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/brisfren.php

Just googled and found this which explains my understanding of the difference far better than I can!!

Yes I read this too but I am not sure I agree with the FL being gentle. I think the FL turns in the mouth and the edge digs in the tongue when in use.

Perhaps we all interpret it differently.

 

[milliepops]

You only have to hold a FL the way it sits in the mouth to see that it cant lie flat on the tongue. I think this is one of those falsehoods that lingers around like a hanging cheek putting pressure on the poll.

 

[milliepops]

Here are some x rays in this article.. no French links but shows how the bits sit

 

[Meredith]

Thanks
Food for a great deal of thought isn’t there?