Frustrated! Young problematic horse.

Illusion100

Illusion100

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Bought as a weanling, gelded at year and a half and now 3 yrs old.

He had an OCD lesion removed at 8 months old and prospects for athletic career good/excellent.

Before going to vet practice you could do anything with him, very sweet and willing to do anything with patience and understanding. The only aspect was that he could get a little fearful now and then, but a simple 5 seconds to realise no-on else was panicking, he was the willing to give it a go.

36 hours at vet practice later....returned a hat rack, extremely angry and fearful.

Long story short, from that point he became neurotic (rearing/bolting/boxwalking/frantically pacing field) pretty much all of the time. Sent him to Pro trainer (when he was approx. 2 and a half), that couldn't do anything with him for a week, again he turned to skin and bone. 2 weeks later picked him up and brought him home after he had some desensitising etc. Heaps better but requires bit and chain for ground handling for many months. Even let him think about taking an inch and game over.

Planning to have him backed in Summer. Plan being let him winter out, he's now in (being neurotic again) to do the prep work for backing.

Have tried conventional calmers....useless. Am going try camomile tea with some Alpha A as he doesn't get hard feed and also try a stable mirror. As per Trainers advice he has to remain full time in box until he settles (could take a week plus) then groundwork with bit and chain daily until settled before allowed daily turnout again. This is not going to be fun at all.

He is extremely intelligent but very sensitive.

Has anyone got any experience of something similar and how did you stay sane.
 
showpony said:
No experience with a similar youngster but how will keeping him confined in a box help? Why not just turnout for couple of mths and start again?
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Reason behind this is for him to learn to manage his stress. If he is removed from his box while he is in a stressed state of mind it re-inforces stress as a positive. When he is stressed he is extremely difficult.

The trainer came highly recommended from Ian & Heidi Woodhead who send their problem horses to this yard. I trust the advice I'm given but dealing with such a horse is very trying.
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
Personally I'd be giving him a weeks gastroguard as a start as that's a lot of stress for him (vets, op etc).
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Going to try Camomile for a combination of it's affects on anxiety/stress and GI tract benefits. He is eating and drinking normally but box-walking and reactive to any 'goings on' at yard. He does have a horse that he is fond of next door to him (coincidently on box-rest fortunately!). Also ordered a stable mirror to see if that alleviates his stress.


Vet op was over 2 years ago but he has never recovered from the ordeal (roughly handled).
 
I'm also voting for chucking him out for a while. Put him in a herd and let him just be a horse for a few months. He's young, he's traumatised - he needs to relax, unwind and psychologically detox.
A herd environment did wonders for my rescue - he's a different horse now.
 
katpower said:
I'm also voting for chucking him out for a while. Put him in a herd and let him just be a horse for a few months. He's young, he's traumatised - he needs to relax, unwind and psychologically detox.
A herd environment did wonders for my rescue - he's a different horse now.
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From 5 months old to 2.5 yrs old he had a herd environment. Op done at 8 months. 36 hrs at vets, 2 weeks pen rest then back out. At 2yrs 7 months old, due to unforeseen factors at previous farm he was moved to livery yard. He has since been out full time until last July when he had 3 weeks at Pro Trainers yard as he would not settle in field, since then full time turn out until last w'end.

Foaled indoors but out with herd asap until weaned at 5 months.
 
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Illusion100 said:
Then he frantically paces the field.

Salt added to water as given no hard feed.
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I'm assuming fresh water is also available?

Loads of ground work in a round yard, small paddock to develop some confidence. The ones I described above have some tools / techniques which will help and loads of praise when he gets even simple things right (leading quietly for example), try and ignore the bad stuff and focus on the reward.

Right back to basic and don't worry about backing until he is happy, my greenie is 7 and only just backed so you have heaps of time.
 
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maccachic said:
I'm assuming fresh water is also available?

Loads of ground work in a round yard, small paddock and develop some confidence the ones I describes above have some tools / techniques which will help and loads of praise when he gets even simple things right, try and ignore the bad stuff and focus on reward. Right back to basic and don't worry about backing until he is happy.
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Yes, large bucket fresh, much smaller bucket salted.

Problem is....he doesn't respond to praise...bribery doesn't work either!

The only thing that he listens to is the chain, he loves that thing.
 
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I agree with the others; turn him away.

If you back him while he is this stressy, it will probably be a traumatic experience and that could have serious long-term effects. He's young, losing an extra year with him isn't the end of the world, you could potentially be setting yourself up to lose a lot more if backing is a negative experience.

For interests sake, what is his breeding?
 
Broke_But_Happy said:
Personally I'd be giving him a weeks gastroguard as a start as that's a lot of stress for him (vets, op etc).
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I would defiantly be thinking you are handling ulcers , and I would try a gastroguard trial ( because scoping him is not going to be worth the trouble )
Try liquid valerian
Try magnesium oxide .
Try a mirror if he does not have one .
One friend of mine transformed a very difficult horse with a goat companion
I don't think I would turn away at four you do need to address and try to work through it .
It's a very upsetting situation
 
Can you pen him with another horse? My mare still wont settle in a stable on her own, but in with another horse she's fine. If he is naturally stressy then you need to avoid situations where he gets stressed rather than asking him to confront them, horses aren't rational creatures and wont just calm down. Get him calmer in the situations that he needs to be calmer in before you start pushing the boundaries again
 
You need to speak to a professional behaviourist. The horse has issues stemming from the original vet visit. Each additional thing (going away to the trainer, being confined, being handled with a chain over nose etc) has just added to these problems. I always worry when I hear "some desensitisation" - because in many cases this tends to mean "we put him in a fearful situation until he shut down" - and this is usually followed by "and then it flared up again at an insignificant trigger some weeks/months later".

You need to speak to someone who can give you a well thought out, science based progressive plan for dealing with the obvious and escalating fear issues, and these should include management strategies as well as training. A professional behaviourist works under vet referral, so if ulcers are an issue (which they may be) they will take this into account.

There are various behaviourists around the country - ideally you need someone who is registered with e.g. APBC. I know of excellent people in Northern Ireland, Surrey, Wales, and Manchester, all of whom travel and all of whom will do a phone consultation in advance of coming out. Just PM me if you would like further details or if you're somewhere outside of these areas.

It is a situation that can be resolved, but not dealing with it now means moving on in the horse's training will just encounter more and more issues.
 
From reading this it's seems partly psychological and physical. My approach would be physical first then resolve psychological with professional help.
 
Goldenstar said:
I would defiantly be thinking you are handling ulcers , and I would try a gastroguard trial ( because scoping him is not going to be worth the trouble )
Try liquid valerian
Try magnesium oxide .
Try a mirror if he does not have one .
One friend of mine transformed a very difficult horse with a goat companion
I don't think I would turn away at four you do need to address and try to work through it .
It's a very upsetting situation
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I thought exactly the same RE ulcers.
 
Ulcers also crossed my mind as a possibility.

You cannot back him while he's in this state and locking him in a box until he gives up (probably because he suffers a mental breakdown), is not an option I would ever consider.

Have you ever got to the bottom of what happened at the Vets when he had his op?

I found the statement about him loving his chain odd. Can you explain why you think that?

I Know that you've had him turned out before. How was it arranged? Was it proper youngstock livery in a large field with lots of other horses that stay out?

You need to get him in a better mental place and only then can you consider training him. Maybe someone like Richard Maxwell would be worth considering.
 
Oh, poor chap. OP are you sure he couldn't be in pain of some kind maybe stemming from the operation? If he really has been this bad ever since the vets. I am no expert but the advice to turn away with a suitabke companion seems really sensible as he is so young and so upset. Poor lad I hope he can recover.
 
Illusion100 said:
Reason behind this is for him to learn to manage his stress. If he is removed from his box while he is in a stressed state of mind it re-inforces stress as a positive. When he is stressed he is extremely difficult.
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I wonder what equine behaviourists think of confining prey animals until they 'learn to manage their stress'?

They seem to have taken the concept of positive reinforcement and applied it to this situation completely incorrectly.

They may have had a lot of success with other horses, but they don't seem right for yours at all.

I do understand your problems to a certain extent as I own a youngster who many would call difficult. I've had to resist a lot of pressure from others who wanted me to sell, send him away or keep him in to 'institutionalise' him (which sounds fairly similar to what they are trying to do with your boy). I found the blase (please imagine the accent on the E) use of the term 'institutionalise' very telling. I, as his owner had to stay strong and stand up for him and what was right for him. It was hard, I did doubt myself but he needs a calm environment and so I didn't send him away or lock him in. Then last month he needed his vaccination and teeth checking (he's particularly difficult with the Vet) but with careful planning and patient handling we managed to get both of these things done. I honestly was amazed that we managed it and without sedation too.
 
I wonder what equine behaviourists think of confining prey animals until they 'learn to manage their stress'?
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No behaviourist would recommend this, which is why I think it would be very useful for OP to speak to a qualified behaviourist - they would be able to explain why the current management of the horse is contributing to the problem. They will also be able to work with the vet if there are health issues.
 
Turf him out in a herd for a year. It will do him the world of good.
If needs be bring him in for a feed daily/weekly to let him know humans are good.
Putting him in a box then handling him aggressively with force will only serve to end up with a frustrated, over energetic horse and will do more damage than good to all parties involved.
 
I, too, would turn this poor thing out in a stable herd bringing in to feed daily, so that he begins to understand that people mean him no harm. I would also try a GastroGuard or similar trial. I can't imagine why any-one would even consider backing a horse which is so difficult to handle on the ground, just a recipe for disaster, imo.
I would make sure that I told any-one who would listen to go nowhere near the vet involved and would be furious with myself that I had let this state of affairs go on for so long. I certainly wouldn't be sending this horse anywhere else for a long time.
 
Tbh I would is this was my issue to deal with .
I would let him come in at night with the other horses and turn out with them , so establish a good calm settled routine .
The other horses are out and come in only briefly then that's what I would do with him.
He needs the company of a couple of sensible adult horses to learn from.
I would just chip away at the handling in tiny steps .
I would take a book and read it in his stable ( might wait for better weather for this).
You need to get him through this before backing in considered and you will need to choose the person who does it with extreme care.
But the first thing I would do is invest in some gastroguard and I would prepared to for him to be kept on it a while at a lower dose ( one quarter tube a day seems to work well ) if you get a good result from the full dosage .
 
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