Frustrated! Young problematic horse.

Hello hope this helps.

I bought my horse as a yearling - also gelded at 1 1/2 years old. At 2 he ripped his leg on barbed wire and had 5 months in and out of box rest. He found it difficult to be part of the her after this. rising 3 we noticed a lump on his jaw which turne out to be a dental cyst. Spent two weeks at the vets having it surgically removed etc. the nurses said he was awful biting kicking, he came home with bandages still on feet from theatre as no one could get them off! He was rude and spiteful biting and kicking at every opportunity. We decided to turn him out for the winter only bringing him in at night but he was back with my other two and in their routine. He started to bond with them and my old boy laid down a few rules out in he field. Now he rising 6, on gastriaid and never been better. Let them be a horse and they tend to figure a lot out for themselves. Sounds like yours has missed out on the lessons taught to him by his peers growing up and it's well worth takin the time to let him find his way in my opinion. Sorry long post!!
 
Ernie2001 said:
Stick with it OP. The more challenging horses tend to be the most rewarding in the end.
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Thanks! He should be a superstar then! ;)

Due to field being flooded he was in for 12 days but went out today. About 1/4 mile walk to field, past the new cattle, 3 tractors clearing muckheap etc and the ripple effect of every horse galloping around field as he was led along track, ideal!

No rearing or bolting, listening to instructions despite very tempting distractions to explode at. He was very much on his toes (lovely piaffe/passage!) but stood still and was very polite to take bridle off and waited until I walked off before he let loose round the field.

Very pleased with him.

Also leaving his banks up in stable, no box-walking, polite when mucking out around him, backing up and waiting when feed/hay brought in etc etc. Lowering his head to have bridle on and off, picking feet up well and standing politely for rugs yada yada.

Amazing the difference 12 days can make. Backs up the advice I'm given was sound and it worked, despite the critics!
 
Keep the updates coming, very interesting.

I had a friend who bought a project pony and had no end of problems. Pony looked like he would make a really nice WHP or similar, but boy had someone wrecked him. Friend was very experienced and this boy seriously stretched her. However, like you, she thought outside the box and once he had accepted the whole handling on the ground (4 months), threw his toys out when they tried to restart him, she ended up using a man who backed racehorses and who used a bit of NH and Parelli. He was fascinating to watch, his repertoire of ideas was enormous and he has the patience of a saint. His thoughts were that it has gone so wrong for this horse with his initial backing that he almost had to create an entirely different path. Once he had got past the first hurdles and effectively came into new territory, horse just flew with his training.

It worked. Horse physically grew up, out grew the WHP they thought he would make and did his first CIC 1* last year.
 
maccachic said:
I would never box rest a horse for 2 months. If the injury is that serious that the horse cannot move for two months I be considering PTS. Horses are designed to move by restricting this important process you are serious impending their heath (gut, feet, mental well being for eg).
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I hope you never have to deal with an injured horse. Ridiculous statement and a lot of dead horses.
 
Luci07 said:
Keep the updates coming, very interesting.

I had a friend who bought a project pony and had no end of problems. Pony looked like he would make a really nice WHP or similar, but boy had someone wrecked him. Friend was very experienced and this boy seriously stretched her. However, like you, she thought outside the box and once he had accepted the whole handling on the ground (4 months), threw his toys out when they tried to restart him, she ended up using a man who backed racehorses and who used a bit of NH and Parelli. He was fascinating to watch, his repertoire of ideas was enormous and he has the patience of a saint. His thoughts were that it has gone so wrong for this horse with his initial backing that he almost had to create an entirely different path. Once he had got past the first hurdles and effectively came into new territory, horse just flew with his training.

It worked. Horse physically grew up, out grew the WHP they thought he would make and did his first CIC 1* last year.
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Thanks for the success story! Well done to both of them. It will help me keep positive on the 'trying days'!

Did specifically arrange for a bombproof companion horse and without it being there think my horse would have been much more difficult with everything kicking off around him! But there was no point setting him up to fail, particularly as so many positives and progress in such a short time.

He's just going to chill in field until w'end now (work commitments and not leading him down track in the dark!!) Then in at night out in day over w'end and see how he goes.

He is highly intelligent and sensitive, gets himself stressed and wound up at sights/sound and most difficult thing is to keep his focus and bring him to a calm state of mind but do so without reinforcing the unwanted behaviour. He has to have 'specialised' leading, just leading him like any other horse does not cut the mustard as you have to be two steps ahead at all times!

Yard is very busy (his field is furthest away, therefore quiet with little action going on) and considered moving him to somewhere quieter. Decided that busy yard best to constantly be able to work on de-sensitising although it will be a more difficult route.

Thanks again for support!
 
Ernie2001 said:
Hello hope this helps.

I bought my horse as a yearling - also gelded at 1 1/2 years old. At 2 he ripped his leg on barbed wire and had 5 months in and out of box rest. He found it difficult to be part of the her after this. rising 3 we noticed a lump on his jaw which turne out to be a dental cyst. Spent two weeks at the vets having it surgically removed etc. the nurses said he was awful biting kicking, he came home with bandages still on feet from theatre as no one could get them off! He was rude and spiteful biting and kicking at every opportunity. We decided to turn him out for the winter only bringing him in at night but he was back with my other two and in their routine. He started to bond with them and my old boy laid down a few rules out in he field. Now he rising 6, on gastriaid and never been better. Let them be a horse and they tend to figure a lot out for themselves. Sounds like yours has missed out on the lessons taught to him by his peers growing up and it's well worth takin the time to let him find his way in my opinion. Sorry long post!!
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He's spent the best part of 3 1/2 years just 'being a horse' in company.

His mother was top mare and severely reprimanded any other mare/youngster that tried to put him in his place but she never disciplined him. This changed when he was weaned and came to me. He was immediately 'put in his box' by others. Made no difference.

Sorry to hear your horse had such a tough time. Glad he's doing so well.
 
Wow, it's been tough on both of you, glad there's a definite change for the best. He sounds as if he'll always tell you if he has problems, and at least that gives you the chance to put them right. Good luck to you OP, I think I would have had a nervous breakdown, I look forward to hearing of future improvements and how he gets on once started and riding on. :-)
 
Spot_the_Risk said:
Wow, it's been tough on both of you, glad there's a definite change for the best. He sounds as if he'll always tell you if he has problems, and at least that gives you the chance to put them right. Good luck to you OP, I think I would have had a nervous breakdown, I look forward to hearing of future improvements and how he gets on once started and riding on. :-)
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Thanks, there have been times when I've felt very low about it all, particularly as a beloved horse was PTS recently.

But onwards and upwards. Thanks again for being supportive, much appreciated. Funny how people were so quick to jump down my throat initially but very few responses when things improved!
 
Well he doesn't sound like an average horse, and in your position I have no idea how I would handle it so the best I can offer is my good wishes. My own horses live out 24/7 but I know of others who would rather stay in their stable 24/7. I guess with your boy you have to find a balance to keep him happy. I'm looking forward to hearing how he goes under saddle, I'd like to think that the whole process focuses his mind and gives him a work ethic that he can find support in.
 
Fides said:
I think people have given up offering advice...

I suspect the horse has finally shut down so is now calm
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Again for the record I didn't ask for advice on the horse, rather how do other people dealing with difficult horses stay sane. If I require advice on physical/behavioural issues I contact relevant Professionals, not ask on a forum.

Considering the Trainer my horse went to, is sent problem horses from Professional riders that then go on to have successful athletic careers, you must be utterly amazing with horses that you can be so dismissive regarding effective advice regarding a horse you have never seen or handled.
 
Maybe have a word with Htobago? Her horse is another super intelligent, sensitive 'busy' horse and she's always saying how the stud he's at seem to be really good at going the extra mile to keep him sane and happy. They seem to have got his management cracked, so there may be some good practice to share there.
 
I would offer up my professional opinion, but as you haven't taken much notice of what's been said so far, dismissing everything suggested, I don't think I'll bother.

I will say though, as a professional (just to stress that) who has backed and started many, many problem/quirky horses...I have NEVER face palmed so much through one post.

Illusion100 said:
36 hours at vet practice later....returned a hat rack, extremely angry and fearful.

Long story short, from that point he became neurotic (rearing/bolting/boxwalking/frantically pacing field) pretty much all of the time. Sent him to Pro trainer (when he was approx. 2 and a half), that couldn't do anything with him for a week, again he turned to skin and bone. 2 weeks later picked him up and brought him home........ requires bit and chain for ground handling for many months. Even let him think about taking an inch and game over.......... he's now in (being neurotic again) to do the prep work for backing.

Have tried conventional calmers....useless. .
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Illusion100 said:
No rearing or bolting, listening to instructions despite very tempting distractions to explode at. He was very much on his toes (lovely piaffe/passage!) but stood still and was very polite to take bridle off and waited until I walked off before he let loose round the field.

Very pleased with him.

Also leaving his banks up in stable, no box-walking, polite when mucking out around him, backing up and waiting when feed/hay brought in etc etc. Lowering his head to have bridle on and off, picking feet up well and standing politely for rugs yada yada.

Amazing the difference 12 days can make!
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risky business said:
Quite the sudden turn around with his behaviour.
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Isn't it? :rolleyes3:

Who'd have thought that shoving a young problem horse in a box to 'de-stress' will immediately and magically cure such severe behavioural issues? I must have been doing it wrong all these years....
 
It's great the turnout went well , it's a major stepping stone to being able to start to work him if he accepting the bridle on and off and leading a distance .
I would maintain routine ASAP .
Do you have a school at the yard .
If so I would start to introduce leading in the school shortly in a very matter of a fact no big deal sort of way .
I also as long as you have company would be considering keeping him stabled at night long term until you are sure he's really through it .
The next thing I would do in six weeks or so would be a trip to a friends yard to go into a strange stable and see want happens , this will tell you a lot .
Well done good luck , and I look forward to hearing how he goes on.
 
I do wonder why you posted in the first place, most of the responses you received were based on personal experience, mine certainly was. You are happy with the result of the method your trainer used, but without understanding the underlying 'theory' behind it its not a practice that I would like to see copied by any one else. I am not an expert but professionals usually open up their practices, theories to peer review, that how practice moves on, sometimes although practices are seen to get results, ie rolker, the general consensus is that the method is detrimental to the horses wellbeing. If they have some really interesting methods perhaps one of the equine colleges would be interested in studying it.
 
Patterdale said:
I would offer up my professional opinion, but as you haven't taken much notice of what's been said so far, dismissing everything suggested, I don't think I'll bother.

I will say though, as a professional (just to stress that) who has backed and started many, many problem/quirky horses...I have NEVER face palmed so much through one post.







Isn't it? :rolleyes3:

Who'd have thought that shoving a young problem horse in a box to 'de-stress' will immediately and magically cure such severe behavioural issues? I must have been doing it wrong all these years....
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When was it stated to be an immediate and magical cure?!
 
Patterdale said:
Isn't it? :rolleyes3:

Who'd have thought that shoving a young problem horse in a box to 'de-stress' will immediately and magically cure such severe behavioural issues? I must have been doing it wrong all these years....
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I have to say I agree, like I said it was a very sudden turn around from being completely stressed, over reacting to everything, needing a chain to walk him from one spot to another and being neurotic to being completely sedate.. In a matter of days?..

I really hope he has improved so he can go back to having a normal life but it was a sudden 180. All due to a stable, have to admit it doesn't sound all that realistic.
 
As I was one that did suggest that I might not keep a horse going who found life so difficult to cope with- the picture you have now posted of him is not one of the deeply traumatised animal which was portrayed/I was imagining previously.
 
Illusion100 said:
Reason behind this is for him to learn to manage his stress. If he is removed from his box while he is in a stressed state of mind it re-inforces stress as a positive. When he is stressed he is extremely difficult.

The trainer came highly recommended from Ian & Heidi Woodhead who send their problem horses to this yard. I trust the advice I'm given but dealing with such a horse is very trying.
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I don't think his mind is as complex as your trainers!
Turn him away, does he have pals to play with, this is vital.
 
Illusion100 said:
When was it stated to be an immediate and magical cure?!
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12 days to go from, in your words, a 'neurotic' horse who 'rears, bolts, box walks, frantically paces the field,' who can only be handled bitted and with a chain, and whom previous professionals have failed to do anything with, to a sedate, chilled, happy, cooperative and relaxed horse who walks out nicely after 12 days in the box, has completely given up his neurotic box walking ways, and is calm and polite to handle, is pretty immediate and magical in my view.
 
Illusion100 said:
Thanks for the success story! Well done to both of them. It will help me keep positive on the 'trying days'!

Did specifically arrange for a bombproof companion horse and without it being there think my horse would have been much more difficult with everything kicking off around him! But there was no point setting him up to fail, particularly as so many positives and progress in such a short time.

He's just going to chill in field until w'end now (work commitments and not leading him down track in the dark!!) Then in at night out in day over w'end and see how he goes.

He is highly intelligent and sensitive, gets himself stressed and wound up at sights/sound and most difficult thing is to keep his focus and bring him to a calm state of mind but do so without reinforcing the unwanted behaviour. He has to have 'specialised' leading, just leading him like any other horse does not cut the mustard as you have to be two steps ahead at all times!

Yard is very busy (his field is furthest away, therefore quiet with little action going on) and considered moving him to somewhere quieter. Decided that busy yard best to constantly be able to work on de-sensitising although it will be a more difficult route.

Thanks again for support!
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Twelve days 24/7 stabling followed by five days 24/7 turnout (in relative isolation), and then a return to stabling overnight is not likely to make sense to a horse. And aside from boxrest for medical reasons, it makes no sense to me either.

Either let the animal live out, or stable it every night to a routine. Surely a busy yard would have someone working there that could manage to bring in and turn out a calm horse? Or is this horse still a nervous mess? Which is it? Has this "method" worked or not?

However, it is true that a horse being led out for the first time after a period cooped up is more likely to behave if it has a calm, confident companion to lead the way. This companion does not always need to be equine, I have used a dog several times. And once a rooster. He was a very striking bird, who considered the yard to be his. Splendid fellow. Although this did result in the horse developing a habit of chasing birds in the field...
 
I have similar youngster very brave, people person chap- went to be castrated at 31/2 as retained testicle had op followed by a week of box rest with penicillin injections. He was ruined! I'd done all the groundwork by the end of the week we couldn't really get near him. Sent him away for 2 weeks to have monty Roberts type work done to re introduce rugs etc as couldn't do this alone and neede a round pen/ smaller area to work in. Came home slightly better but not 100% backed him to see if this would help and it massively helped he was surprisingly vey easy to back and willing. He is still spooky/jumpy on the ground an think everything you do will e painful and scary. BUT since being ridden full time he is getting better he bites a lot is as if he doesn't no what else to do it's not nasty he goes to them makes himself jump but the more time passes the better he gets. He is very way to handle in general just a bit jumpy on the ground now. I spen a lot of time playing with him. I won't just lunge ill lunge then do some ground work backing up, moving over both sides, teaching to how. Patience is the key. Routine and consistency ! Also as much turnout as poss to allow he's mind to stay active and keep him as calm as possible :) good luck and stick with it it is so much more frustrating than is they have alway been that way I feel x
 
Hi there I have read through most of the posts and from what I can see there is a huge range of responses and progress has been made I believe?
Anyway I thought I would put my two cents in, largely due to the success that I've had with highly sensitive, problematic and (more often than not) traumatized youngsters. As a horse trainer using mostly NH methods, applying parts of many different methods to solve issues is key. Firstly look at management, living out 24/7 or a consistent routine of grazing and stabling nightly with friends and adlib forage is ideal. Next step, is handling, can you touch every part of him, catch, lead, load and trim him? If not 100% then work on it becoming 100%, eventually without a chain or any other tool. Only after all of these things have been done should you start any exercises with the aim of him being backed. This sort of unique horse personality needs consistency, and a trusting relationship is paramount. You need to do something with him everyday and one day after all the hard work has been done you will have an incredible and talented partnership. You have everything to look forward to.
If anything has already been mentioned beforehand then apologies for any repetition.
Amy
 
I cannot understand why some people are giving the OP such a hard time. She has been fairly open and has explained the theories behind her decisions regarding her young horse. I don't understand why it is so unbelievable to some that stabling a horse can not only alter its behaviour, but can bring about great improvement in its attitude and trainability.

I PMd the OP telling her about one particular horse with whom I worked, for a past employer, who within three weeks was brought from a horse which had had no handling and wouldn't be caught, and who may have been deemed dangerous by some, to a horse which wore rugs, travel boots, lifted all his feet, led out, tied up, wore tack and was bitted, lunged, loaded into a trailer on several occasions, and sold.

This particular horse was brought in, loose, to the stables and effectively isolated from his herd from day three. His behaviour was a bit frantic to begin with, and he had little regard for me or anything else for a few days, but soon began to look for me coming to see him, feed him and muck out. After a couple of days his box-walking had ceased, he was safe to share a loose box with, and he settled down gradually over the next few days. He started to call to me when I entered the yard, and quickly became calm and trainable.

I have worked with lots of horses for various people, and used similar tactics to 'focus' them.

It was common practice at one time to stable horses for short periods so that they grew less reliant on the herd and more reliant on their human companions/handlers. I still do it here at home with my own. Each of them will come into a stable on their own, away from the others, and quickly adapt to the new regime without much fuss. They may call out for an hour or two the very first time they come in, might barge about a bit and even sweat a little, but very quickly settle. They learn the routine and come to expect visits and interaction with me at certain times of day; the rest of the time they eat or sleep. What is wrong with that?
 
AengusOg said:
I cannot understand why some people are giving the OP such a hard time. She has been fairly open and has explained the theories behind her decisions regarding her young horse. I don't understand why it is so unbelievable to some that stabling a horse can not only alter its behaviour, but can bring about great improvement in its attitude and trainability.

I PMd the OP telling her about one particular horse with whom I worked, for a past employer, who within three weeks was brought from a horse which had had no handling and wouldn't be caught, and who may have been deemed dangerous by some, to a horse which wore rugs, travel boots, lifted all his feet, led out, tied up, wore tack and was bitted, lunged, loaded into a trailer on several occasions, and sold.

This particular horse was brought in, loose, to the stables and effectively isolated from his herd from day three. His behaviour was a bit frantic to begin with, and he had little regard for me or anything else for a few days, but soon began to look for me coming to see him, feed him and muck out. After a couple of days his box-walking had ceased, he was safe to share a loose box with, and he settled down gradually over the next few days. He started to call to me when I entered the yard, and quickly became calm and trainable.

I have worked with lots of horses for various people, and used similar tactics to 'focus' them.

It was common practice at one time to stable horses for short periods so that they grew less reliant on the herd and more reliant on their human companions/handlers. I still do it here at home with my own. Each of them will come into a stable on their own, away from the others, and quickly adapt to the new regime without much fuss. They may call out for an hour or two the very first time they come in, might barge about a bit and even sweat a little, but very quickly settle. They learn the routine and come to expect visits and interaction with me at certain times of day; the rest of the time they eat or sleep. What is wrong with that?
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Routine works...

Stabling a horse for 12 days, that is highly stressed is cruel IMO. We are living in an enlightened equine society and I cannot understand why outdated and quite barbaric practices are still being practice and even recommended...
 
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