Getting horse more electric to the leg...maybe

Caol Ila

Caol Ila

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I tried this in competition riders but having not ridden in any competition in over a decade, it quickly disappeared to page 3, so I'll see if I gain any ground here. ;)

What I more or less wrote was that my horse has always warmed up a flatwork schooling session slumming along behind the leg. After 20 or so minutes, she kicks into gear and will be forward and impulsive. This seems to be the way she does things no matter what you do. I have had big rows with her about it and also gone along with it and it doesn't really matter. I have, however, developed the unfortunate bad habit of nagging her with my leg, which doesn't help things and has doubtlessly exaggerated the problem over the years. In order to kick this habit, I've been getting on her case when she blows off a leg aid and trying to make it clear that when I apply a light aid, she needs to GO, and then I sit quietly and focus on keeping my leg still (as an aside, I don't nag other horses I ride; it seems fairly limited to my horse; we are like an old married couple). The problem is that I am finding that each ride where I do this has no effect on the next ride. We have to go through the same routine. And after 20 minutes, the horse is forward anyway.

The questions I have are (a) what could I be doing differently or better to make these lessons stick and (b) should I bother, as the horse is 20 and can warm up however she likes.
 
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I supose there are different options you have
1. at 20yrs old is it really worth trying to change now?
2. Do you really need to change? are you going to start competing again? If so whats wrong with you warming up the way you do if at the end you get the desired result anyway?
3. Use spurs (correctly) untill she's no longer dead to your leg.
4. (Probably should be no1) get a lesson and see what the instructor thinks.
 
I go through phases where I want to fix it.

The last lesson I had resulted in a bigger row (a wee while ago now), as instructor had her way of doing things which involved warming horse up in an outline. My horse thinks it's her inalienable right to warm up on a loose rein and pick up an outline 15 or 20 minutes later. And I have always allowed her to do that, so she didn't appreciate the change. Obviously not all instructors will have the same theories, but that was that one anyway.
 
I don't know if I'd worry too much. As a partnership you sound like you have your own little routine that has been 14 years in the making, and you say she does go forwards after 20mins, so I suppose it's not the end of the world. I'm not sure quite what you are doing with off the leg training, so I couldn't possibly say whether it is something you are doing or whether it's just not really sticking with her because she is set in her ways.
 
Personally at 20 yrs old, sounds like your pottering about with her, i'd leave her be and just enjoy your time together.
 
TBH if this is only a problem during the first 20 minutes of the ride while she warms up, I would just leave her to it. Some horses take longer to warm up than others and seeing as your horse is older she will need more time to loosen up and start swinging along. You may cause her discomfort if you push her to march along when her muscles and joints aren't yet warm and ready to work. My horse, although only 7 takes a while to warm up. I just hold the reins at the buckle and let him dictate the pace in walk, making lots of changes of direction to supple him up, steering with my feet to test how much he's listening. It takes a good fifteen minutes of this before I pick up the reins and ask him to work and move forward at my pace. I've found if I don't stick to this routine he's very tense and spooky. Listen to your mare, if she's happy with her little routine and goes forward fine the rest of the session I would leave her be.
 
I give her a very light squeeze and if she ignores it, I give her a sharp tap with the whip and praise her for going forward. Then I might do a downward transition or slow down the gait so I can offer her the opportunity to go forward off a light squeeze again, which she will take at that moment, but we then end up doing the same routine each day.

Cross-posted with sprinkles: she has been like this since she was 7! No changes at all.
 
Maybe she can't be more forwards in the early stage? If she is 20 I'm imagine she has some stiffness that she needs to work through first.

I'd say go with the flow and don't rattle her cage too much if the end result is what you want. I'd be inclined to go for a short hack around the block before schooling, or to spend the first 20 minutes doing lots of lateral exercises in walk.
 
Some horses need time to actually warm up, this can be physical or mental, if she takes 20 mins and is then happy to go in front of the leg working properly I would accept that she needs that 20 mins to get going, trying to change now may have a detrimental effect on her attitude after the 20 mins, I would use the time to work on lateral bend, moving laterally away from the leg rather than expecting more forwardness, I often use a long rein, not loose and spend 20 mins moving around, picking up at times to see if they are ready, some are much more speedy than others.
I have one that if started on a long rein will stay down and be so lazy never getting his mind into work mode, if started on a shorter rein he can do 10 mins then stretch and is then easier to pick up next time.
I think at her age she knows what she needs and I would work with her rather than pick a fight for the sake of shortening the warm up time.
 
As she is 20 she may well be stiff and just needs to loosen up, or maybe she just is clever enough to know when to perform.

However, as she is 20 and presumably is with you until the end of her days you could have a bit of fun with some positive reinformcement training. I tried this with my horse ( who couldnt get the whole point of doing stupid circles) and found that she really does have an acceleration button when she wants too!!

In my case I clicker trainer her on the ground to show that a click means a reward is coming ( that didn't take very long at all) the took it under saddle. I clicked at the exact moment of acceleration from a light aid. You quickly have to move through the.click, result stop and treat or they think click means stop - extend the amount of good trot until she gets a treat but still click at the moment of acceleration.

Taking a bit of random clicking under saddle has completely changed my horses attitude to schooling. She is now quite happy to spend her time in the school rather than sulking if it was a school day rather than a hack, which works for us both!

There are other ways of introducing the positive reward into schooling but this way seems clear to my horse what she is being rewarded for.
 
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On thinking about it, I suppose there is some kind of sense to her methods. Like I said, she's been like this ever since she was a young horse and she is still sound at 20 (knock on wood). Perhaps she knows better than eejit humans what she should be doing.

I do like the idea of warming her up with easy lateral movement and playing about with clicker training. I suppose if I make an utter arse of it, we can always go back to good old pressure and release.
 
Can you explain in as much detail as possible what you do for the first 5 minutes after getting on her please? May sound daft, but it would be really helpful to know your initial routine :)
 
There's not a lot to it. I usually spend the first five minutes walking around the arena on the buckle. I do some circles, some diagonals, change directions. Just amble about, really. After five to ten minutes, I pick up a trot, but still on a pretty long rein, letting her put her nose wherever she wants it. This is where we may start discussing the "forwards" issue as I will ask her to get in front of the leg while on her long rein.
 
Caol Ila said:
There's not a lot to it. I usually spend the first five minutes walking around the arena on the buckle. I do some circles, some diagonals, change directions. Just amble about, really. After five to ten minutes, I pick up a trot, but still on a pretty long rein, letting her put her nose wherever she wants it. This is where we may start discussing the "forwards" issue as I will ask her to get in front of the leg while on her long rein.
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Thank you for that. :)

Every time I get on any horse, my own that I ride all the time or a new horse I have never sat on before, I do the same thing. The same first very simple exercise to ask them to be light off my leg and let them know that I will be light in return.

The exercise couldn't be simpler.

Get on. Wait at a halt and the number one most important thing is to assess your own position as you stand there. I tend to always lift my knees away from the saddle, up and then let them hang back down again. This opens my hip and makes sure my leg is a/ positioned correctly and b/ the correct part of my calf is in contact with the horse. If I am tipped slightly forward or back, I will realise it as soon as I open my hips, so that's the seat taken care of. Then I do a shoulder roll or two, and make sure I am sitting tall and light in my seat.

So, before you even ask the horse to walk, you have set yourself up for better success by making it easier for the horse to carry and listen to you.

The actual exercise that I use to get the horse off the leg is lots and lots of walk-halt-walk transitions. They are not simple though. You need to see this exercise as being one of the most important of the entire session. What you do in these first few minutes can dictate the whole session, so take it seriously and concentrate.

When you have your position sorted and are happy, take a long and relaxed contact on the reins and ask the horse to walk on by doing no more than flexing the calf muscle. Don't be fooled into thinking the horse won't feel this. They can feel a fly land on them, they can feel your muscle contract!. If you get any forward movement at all....even a really half hearted transition into walk, allow forward with the hand and have a neutral seat that just moves with the motion and give the horse a rub on the wither with your fingers. Walk just three or four strides, take a deep breath in and as you breathe out, tighten your core muscles and think halt. If the horse doesn't halt, just back it up with the reins just enough to get the halt. As soon as you get the halt, relax the rein and your core muscles and give another little rub on the withers and a "good girl". Count to three and ask for a walk again. Same thing, begin by asking with nothing more than flexing the calf muscle. Again, any forward movement should be rewarded instantly with a little rub on the wither.

Now...if you ask for a walk with a flex of the calf muscle and the horse doesn't move, don't bother nagging with the leg, but back it up with a quick sharp tap with a schooling whip. I prefer to use a schooling whip effectively a handful of times in a session than nag with the leg constantly.

So, if the horse doesn't go off a flexion of your calf muscle, immediately back it up and when the horse moves forward, immediately reward with a giving hand a a rub on the wither and even a "good girl". Even if the horse goes off in trot or canter...let them do it, still reward them and bring them back after 6-8 strides. We don't want to pull them straight back. This is very basic stuff. We are teaching the horse to go off light aids, so anything forward that they give should be rewarded. If they give us forward and we pull them straight back because we want walk and they gave trot, we are, in effect, punishing the forward movement that we want from them. You'll have a confused horse and be back at square one.

So...we make it black and white for them. They go forward off a light aid and if they decide they can't be bothered, you back it up in no uncertain terms. Get the walk, reward it. Get the halt, reward it. Keep the leg on the horses side throughout the walk, but keep it quiet.
I find with many horses that if you give a leg aid and then take the leg away when they move forward, you can create a horse that is overly sensitive to the leg. That can be just as difficult to ride as a horse that is numb to the leg.

What we want to do is create a harmonious balance. I get everyone I teach to do this and as I said, I do it myself every time I ride.
I will do all the normal warm up exercises of circles, serpentines, figure of eights, lateral work on circles and straight lines. I just do it all taking no more than 9 strides at a time. I also mix that up. So I'll do a couple of walks that are 9 strides, then a couple of walks that are 3 or 4 strides. Same with the halts. I'll do a couple of halts that are 2 seconds and a couple that are 5 or 8 seconds and keep mixing it up.

If you do this lightly and back up your leg effectively, you should have a horse that is light, responsive and waiting for your next command. You should be able to set up for a leg yield, give the aid once and the horse remain in the movement until you ask it to go straight again.

After 3-4 minutes of this in walk, which is usually all it takes, you can do the same in trot, doing to start with trot-walk-trot transitions, then trot-halt-trot transitions. Keep rewarding, keep the contact kind and I don't put any emphasis on where the head is in this work. This is about setting up for what is to come, not expecting to have it straight away.

When you feel the horse is responsive and listening to you, listen back....let the horse tell you when it is ready to do more work. All horses are different, so if your horse takes 20 minutes to be ready for real work, so be it. If it is ready after 10 minutes, so be it.

I always like to have a break in a session. So, if I do 20 minutes warm up which is what my TB likes, I'll then do 10 minutes work, 3 minutes of repeating the initial walk-halt-walk exercise, but with much longer walks and then 10-15 minutes of work again before colling down.

I hope all of that made sense. I am of the opinion that I like to have a horse decide for itself to work with me, not be forced into working for me. That doesn't mean they should get an easy ride...unless it is a baby, they know what the aids are so you can be demanding that they listen properly...but when they do, reward pays dividends later in the session.
 
OMG _GG_ - thanks so much for taking the time to type that all out! it makes so much sense!!! And I for one is going to learn it and use it......

What a kind soul you are!
 
pipper said:
OMG _GG_ - thanks so much for taking the time to type that all out! it makes so much sense!!! And I for one is going to learn it and use it......

What a kind soul you are!
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Totally agree, fab post GG! Will definately be trying that on Captain Slow :)
 
Lets start a thread for all of us that are going to take _GG_'s advise! See how many of us have success with that technique.....
 
We definitely need a like button... GG that post is brilliant and so useful, to lots of people I'm sure. Thanks so much for taking the time to write that!
 
pipper said:
OMG _GG_ - thanks so much for taking the time to type that all out! it makes so much sense!!! And I for one is going to learn it and use it......

What a kind soul you are!
Click to expand...

Where in Wilts are you? I am in Melksham...I'd be more than happy to come and take you through it in person / show you if you want x
 
_GG_ it's all good advise and I don't fundementally disagree at all.
For those trying that method the only thing I would flag is that there is the potential to train a horse to respond to the flick of a dressage whip rather than a leg aid ... I know because it's a trap I have previously fallen into!
 
Wow GG, what a great post! This is an issue I tried to tackle with my mare yesterday (report in my blog), I was using the same sort of method as you described but was asking too much rather the just flexing my calf muscle so next time I will follow what you have suggested and hope to see a difference.

Thanks :D
 
I'll report back after my ride.

The other issue I have which contributes to this problem is that, like many of us, I fall into habits of mindless schooling. Especially in the warm up. Going round on the rail, some circles, some changes of direction, but nothing very interesting. I think my horse is very bright and when her mind isn't engaged in the work, she drifts off and is more prone to ignore light aids. "Huh? You wanted me canter? You stopped riding so I decided to go off and get a cup of tea. I'll get back to you on that canter thing."
 
ihatework said:
_GG_ it's all good advise and I don't fundementally disagree at all.
For those trying that method the only thing I would flag is that there is the potential to train a horse to respond to the flick of a dressage whip rather than a leg aid ... I know because it's a trap I have previously fallen into!
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Oh...I know many that this has happened to. The thing that I try to remember with the whip and why I mentioned only using it a handful of times is that if you start to use it more than say 1 time for every 100 transitions, you'll have the issue of the horse going off the whip not the leg.

I hope I was clear enough in my post that the whip is not an aid, it is a back up but it has to be an effective one. Not a tickle...a quick, sharp use that puts the horse in no doubt that if the leg isn't listened to...there is a consequence.

Also as said, the whip is not something I use with young horses that are just getting established in the aids.

Pipper....perhaps if you are willing to let me come and do this with you and your horse, you could have someone video it for the benefit of others?
 
Ok....because I don't agree with offering advice without showing myself doing it in action if I can...this is me riding Fly.

She was I think 4 sessions in after two months off with ongoing SI issues. The was first time in a new dressage saddle and new bit...so I was being extremely light in the contact, just letting her put herself where she wanted to go.

However...if you look only at my lower leg in the first 10 seconds of the video...you will see that it doesn't appear to give an aid for trot. It is just a flex of the calf muscle. I have ariat stiff leather gaitors...really quite rigid and she can feel my calf muscle flex through that...so it is absolutely possible to ride off really light aids.

No, I'm not the best rider....I am better at teaching others than I am riding but then I just love to see what is happening so maybe that is why. Watching this, I am so glad I decided to get back to my old weight again, lol...almost there too :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TST_beCSPBU
 
Caol Ila said:
I'll report back after my ride.

The other issue I have which contributes to this problem is that, like many of us, I fall into habits of mindless schooling. Especially in the warm up. Going round on the rail, some circles, some changes of direction, but nothing very interesting. I think my horse is very bright and when her mind isn't engaged in the work, she drifts off and is more prone to ignore light aids. "Huh? You wanted me canter? You stopped riding so I decided to go off and get a cup of tea. I'll get back to you on that canter thing."
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Very easy to get stuck in a rut doing the same things. An exercise I like to do to keep sharp is more of a method I suppose that can be transferred to many exercises in the school. Bear with me through some of my explanations, I am no writer and used to showing clients, not actually talking through and explaining in detail :)

Anyway...what I like to do on a horse with a busy, active mind is keep it busy by giving it constant challenges.
An excellent way to do this to really get a feel for how subtle you need to be as a rider and also learn how light an aid your horse can respond to is to start with the following exercise.

Come down the centre line at A in walk. Get three straight strides, then ask for two strides of leg yield right, then two strides straight, then three strides leg yield and repeat until you reach the track. If your horse is new to lateral work or or not able to move sideways without backing off the leg, keep the leg yield steps very shallow...keeping the emphasis on the horse staying in front of the leg and forward minded. When doing this, you may not get to the track before you reach the C end of the school and that is fine. When doing new things, we should work within the parameters of the individual horses abilities, not within the inflexible parameters of the arena.

So, the key to the exercise is that we are not simply asking the horse to give us leg yield. We are asking the horse to alternate between straight and lateral, straight and lateral. We don't need to only do it on straight lines either. We can do this by spiralling down onto a small circle and leg yield out onto a large circle. But...you ask for two yielding strides and two forward on the circle strides, then three yielding, three straight. When the horse gets use to it, mix it up to keep them sharp and attentive. So 1 stride yield, three strides, straight, two strides yield, one stride straight...then three strides yield, one stride straight and so on. This will have your horse focussed on nothing but your aids in no time. A horse with an active mind will be kept guessing what is coming next and not get bored or stale.

With super busy minded horses, I will aim to work this kind of thing into 40-50% of the session, spending the remaining time working on the rhythm and correctness in whatever else I ask of them.

It doesn't just have to be lateral work either, it is just a good way to start as the aids are clearly different and it is good to begin new things by making it as easy for the horse to understand as possible. When you are happy that they are really listening, you can do it in all gaits. You can ask for three strides medium walk, two strides extended (or at least bigger) walk, then two strides medium, four strides collected (or at least, smaller).

You can do it in all gaits as and when the horse is ready. You can carry on doing your circles and serpentines and so on...but if you work into them the principal of keeping your horse guessing, you can keep that busy mind active and listening to you.

Hope that makes sense.

I would as said earlier be more than happy to show all of this and have lessons filmed if anyone is local to me in Wiltshire or the South West as these things are much easier shown than typed.
 
I tried the exercise GG suggested in her first long post. Result! My horse thought this was a great idea and worked beautifully for the whole ride. I think it made it clearer to her what I wanted re: leg aid and gave her a job to do in the warm-up.

I sometimes do the leg yield thing above. She also likes going shoulder-in, half-pass, shoulder-in. She enjoys her lateral work and wakes up when you make it interesting and combine it with transitions. I must get more disciplined about being motivated myself when schooling and thinking of interesting stuff for her to do and on days when I really can't be bothered, go on a hack!
 
Caol Ila said:
I tried the exercise GG suggested in her first long post. Result! My horse thought this was a great idea and worked beautifully for the whole ride. I think it made it clearer to her what I wanted re: leg aid and gave her a job to do in the warm-up.

I sometimes do the leg yield thing above. She also likes going shoulder-in, half-pass, shoulder-in. She enjoys her lateral work and wakes up when you make it interesting and combine it with transitions. I must get more disciplined about being motivated myself when schooling and thinking of interesting stuff for her to do and on days when I really can't be bothered, go on a hack!
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Glad it helped....to be honest, I have never known it fail to get some kind of improvement. :)

LOVE that last comment. If I've had a stressful day, I realise it as soon as I tack up if it has affected me....I don't get my normal cuddles. It's like the girls tell me I am not in the right frame of mind, so I either abandon schooling and go for a hack or just loose school them and let them have some fun. Riding when your mind is not invested is completely pointless IMO.
 
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