Going to see some GSD puppies tonight....

[minmax]

Found some farm bred pups, not ready for a couple of weeks but going to see them and maybe choose one. Have emailed alsorts of people but some want a million pounds and some havn't any pups atm. I wondered if anyone had any questions they think I should ask??? ( this will be my 5th GSD)

 

[MurphysMinder]

Most importantly, check parents hip and elbow scores ,ask to actually see score sheets not take their word for it, and that the sire has been haemophaelia tested. Meet the mum and make sure you are happy with her temperament, she should be happy to meet you away from her pups, greet you calmly etc. Its quite likely they won't have the sire there, but ask to see pictures and ideally details of his owners to give you the opportunity to visit him and assess his temperament. Pups should be friendly, and of a generally even size. No pot bellies, clean eyes and ears obviously no sign of parasites. Breeders should ask you as many questions as you ask them, they should also provide you with a diet sheet and if the pups are kc reg their registration documents. The excuse they aren't back from the kc is usually not valid nowadays as it is one thing they do seem to be getting right most of the time.

 

[minmax]

They have both parents, sire KC, dam isn't but they have the 5 gen pedigree. The owners live on a farm I think, they are still with mum and thats where they will be tonight. The owner is going back to work in 2 weeks so thats when she will let them go. Born end of may.

 

[Jake10]

Ditto MurphysMinder. Not sure if this is relevant to you but could you ask what they are currently feeding them. One of my dogs breeders fed him a variety of different brands/types from weaning 'to stop him being fussy' he now has a sensitive stomach (probably isn't related to his diet but you never know). He was also taken up the fields to meet other dogs before he had any vaccinations (something else I don't believe in )

 

[CorvusCorax]

I wouldn't personally, stick at it and see if you can get health-tested puppies.
They won't all charge the earth.

Maybe I am cynical but if they bitch isn't KC reg, I doubt they'll have hip and elbow scores.

I can make up a five-gen pedigree tomorrow that would look good, doesn't mean it's real or means anything, in the nicest possible way.

If you really want a dog ASAP, MM's advice is good but like I say, tread carefully
Please don't accept individual puppies being brought out to see you.

 

[soloabe]

I would run a mile.
Doesn't sound like they would be decent health tested pups at all.

You have to expect to pay a fair amount for dogs that have been bred resposibly.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Also - ridebumble (on Pix's thread) breeds, maybe drop them a PM?

 

[Pix]

I'm not an expert, but having recently been through the long search for the right pup I'd ditto what everyone else has said to be honest. It might be worth calling up and asking a few questions over the phone? Some of the litters I called about sounded great on paper, but after a quick convo I wouldn't have even visited. For example one lot gave one word answers to questions on parents temperament ("good". Oh, ta, how bl**dy informative!) as well as everything else, others wanted shut because they had two litters at the same time and another on the way with no room, some ask you no questions at all because frankly they couldn't care less.... the list of muppets goes on and on

As well as hip/elbow scores ask about worming, vacs, any flea treatments used, how often they're weighed etc, will their vet provide written confirmation that they've been checked over before they leave? Are they used to household goings on or are they in kennels? They should be able to provide written records of most of this, as well as be happy to provide on going support.

Just my rather long 2 pence worth

 

[MurphysMinder]

Just to add, whilst agree with everything else said here, I never actually had pups vet checked before I sold them, unless I was concerned they had a health problem. I hope I am experienced enough to know whether a pup is healthy or not. Another important thing I would look for when buying a pup is if the breeder gives a contract with the pup, covering things as health tests before breeding (lifting any KC endorsements applied), training the pup, and offering ongoing support throughout the life of the dog, including help if the purchaser is unable to keep the dog.

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

If they were born at the end of May why are they being given away in 2 weeks? that would be before the middle of July! They should stay with their mum for 8 weeks, this is really important.

 

[Pix]

What Murphysminder said vet check is more of a bonus really. We had a note stating pup was looked over when he had his first vac. Wasn't expected but nice to see anyway. The contract also stated he must be checked out by my own vet within a week. Common sense really but good to see that kind of thing on paper

 

[Vizslak]

My contracts state within 3 days they must be seen by the new owners vet. I do have mine vet checked but more because I have their vax done so they are done anyway. I have let a couple of pups leave at 7 ish weeks before, so before vax are done and have had them vet cheked for my own piece of mind rather than anything else. I don't think 7 weeks is an uncommon age for a pup to leave the litter (especially breeder to breeder, we got F at 7 weeks because we were deemed responsible and knowledgable enough to do so by her breeder). However I have only let pups go early to people I know and trust and am 100% with, and if I thought the individual pup would benefit from it rather than it have an adverse effect. I've refused even to very knowledgable people that I know simply because the pup wasnt ready to leave. I had one bitch pup I kept until 16 weeks because quite frankly it was an a*hole and I wanted to teach it mannars before it went anywhere!! The owners were friends and knowledgable and were getting most agitated but I wouldn't let her out of this house until she was resembling 'well rounded'! She was top bitch of a fairly large litter and really was the most obnoxious little thing I have ever known before or since! (She is lovely and very well rounded now and often comes to visit!) Anyway I digress.... I would be concerned that someone is planning to have the whole litter out to new homes early so they can go back to work. That just rings alarm bells to me. And I really do think un health checked parents in any breed is a very very grave error when considering a pup.

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

If they are given away mid-July they will be 6 weeks not even 7!

Maybe it's different there, but in Italy no breeder would ever give puppies away before the 8th week.

 

[minmax]

All pups were with the bitch, who was a lovely dog. I took my GSD and they looked him over too. The dad is KC reg, the bitch is by KC's but not registered herself. Hip scores only, no elbow? Puppies clean, all the same size, males a bit bigger. Eating solids and on the bitch.
The people asked what I did, about my horses and where the pup would be etc. We had already spoken on the phone twice yesterday, they seemed happy with my experience and with me having the pup early. 7 wks. The reason they are happy for some to go early is that the lady is going off to work and leaving hubby to care for puppies and mum, dad and another dog, chickens and 3 kids. She doesn't fancy his chances!

 

[Vizslak]

Yea sorry just realised that, my maths is appauling! 6 weeks is way to early. 7 ish ie. a few days over the 7 week mark is my absolute minimum, and as I said it is rare for me to do that, but I have and feel justified in doing so the occasions when I have and certainly no harm has come to those few pups. No harm came to Flora either and we picked her up a few days after she hit 7 weeks. The rest of her litter stayed until 10 weeks with no exceptions but they were all to pet homes, not that Flora isn't a pet but, well I don't know what I'm trying to say really I know what I mean!

 

[MurphysMinder]

Re vet checks, yes I also ask people to get pups checked over by their vet, rarely do first vaccs when they are with me as they usually went at 8 weeks and my vets did first vacc at 10. I had Evie at 7 weeks, and have let some pups go at that age, as long as I was confident the new owners were capable.

Minmax, I wouldn't be so concerned about elbow scores because that is new for GSDs, Evie is the first one I have had done. Are the hip scores of the parents low, ideally below 10 but definitely below mid teens, also the scores of ancestors?

ETS. Quite surprised that they let you take your lad, I wouldn't let anyone near my place with their own dog when my pups were 5 weeks old, maybe I am just neurotic.

 

[s4sugar]

How do you get hips scored without a KC registration number?

Porkies perhaps?

I would look further.

 

[ridebumble]

Out of interest how much are they charging for non KC puppies? I only ask as obviously there is no way of checking back at the dam's pegigree hip scores they could all be hip score of 70 or Noch Zugelassen (not for breeding on german scoring system). Did they have a really good reason for breeding non KC stock? Obviously not to further the breed so why do it ? Cash ? Has the bitch had too many litters hence why pups are not registered?

How old is the Dam ? how many litters ? Has dad been shown or worked? Did they explain dad's pedigree and the health scores for parents grandparents etc.. Also why no elbow scores? If the bitch & Dog are under 4-5 then its pretty standard nowadays ... I have 7 year olds elbowed. Are they keeping a puppy ? if not why not ? Is it because they are not KC ?

Sorry if I sound a little arsey but I have seen people pay way to much for what is basically a mongrel (nothing wrong with mongrels I hasten to add), for dogs with bad health in their pedigrees.

 

[minmax]

I had told them my very good friend is a vet nurse, who checked Paddy over the night I collected him, so told them the pup will be checked as soon as I get her home. I've had dogs or worked with dogs and horses all my life so would like to think I'm not a novice. They wanted to see Paddy as he had come with us, I had been to the yard to turn my boys out before we went. I had no intention of him coming out but they wanted to see him. Yes, low scores, I get a copy of the pedigree when I collect pup, I had a look at it but they had such obscure names I can't remem them.
The sire had a KC num, hip score etc, the bitch isn't KC.

 

[ridebumble]

I still don't see why they would spend a couple of hundred of £ on hip scoring non kc dog ... This sounds really dodgy to me ... I'd be interested in the answers to my questions above

 

[Ranyhyn]

I am definitely not the right person to pontificate on getting a puppy, however one thing I absolutely consoled myself to, is if you are buying a pedigree dog, to enjoy 10+ years with, don't scrimp on money anywhere. Go for the best dog, with the best breeding you can find for the purpose you want, be prepared to spend a lot of money to ensure your friend is healthy, happy and from a responsible breeder.
I know places kicking out GSD's for £250, I paid closer to three times that and even though I wasn't right for pup, I wouldn't hesitate to do so again and again. My money, research and time spent may not have paid off totally however, being careful meant I bought from great breeders who took the dog back without a blink. Aftercare like that doesn't come cheap.

Best of luck whatever you decide, and I hope your friend is everything you wish for. x

 

[ridebumble]

Well said Jen

 

[minmax]

Does that mean rescue GSD's are out of the question then? I had one, Max, who was a fantastic dog, but had been kicked out of first home fore not being nasty enough, then to big for highrise flats! He was a ****** when I got him, after about a year he was a very well behaved nice dog. Anyone could do anything with him. When I got him he would wet himself in fear! Should I have elbow and hip tested an 11 mth rescue, then tossed him back if he ws no good? I agree if you are breeding KC reg dogs to test them, if you intend to breed test them, I am not going to breed, I want a nice dog as a playmate for the NON KC I already have. I am not paying £700 for a dog that just may get kicked by a horse. A friend of mine has paid £600 for a labradoodle, that is a mongrel. It is not a pedigree yet people will pay that much for them.
BTW, Max the rescue was KC hip scored and tattoo'd but I didn't find that out till I chased up the tattoo.

 

[ridebumble]

If you get a rescue you are rescuing a dog (and should be applauded for doing so)... you are NOT encouraging breeding un KC'd german shepherds from people who are obviously out to make a few quid and they need people like you to buy them so they can continue to churn out pups. And "I'm not spending money on a kc dog in case it gets kicked to death" is hardly a valid reason for encouraging unethical breeders.. go to a rescue then.



So why don't you get in touch with one of the german shepherd resues? Why pay for a pup from these people when you could get one from a rescue ?

By the way I have probably 6-7 pups in equestrian homes over the last 10 years ... none have yet been booted

 

[Ranyhyn]

Does that mean rescue GSD's are out of the question then?

Definitely not, as that wouldn't be part of my "if you are buying a pedigree dog" scenario. I mean - if you are buying a dog and seem interested in scores etc why not go the whole hog, or not at all?

I don't think the GSD enthusiasts here can help you pick a GSD from a litter like the one you are seeing because its a bit of an unknown quantity. Its like asking what a foal will turn out like from two heinz 57 parents, there are very few experts on cross bred horses as you are in a lottery. That's just me trying to be helpful. I never asked for any help picking my two JRTs as they are pets, I paid a pittance for them and I took my chances - who could advise me on getting a puppy who had no traceable history etc?

The people here are just trying to help you using the knowledge they have, which really does teach you to buy quality OR rescue, not feed the middle road **** breeders!

 

[minmax]

I have been on all the rescue sites, looking for puppies. None as far as I can see, I do not want to rescue an older dog anymore as the yard I keep my horses at is a livery and lots of other dogs and kids. I do no of dogs that have had back legs shattered, been stamped on, kicked in the head. Today a labdoodle got stepped on as someone led a horse out to ride. As I said, I don't want to pay £700 for a dog, when I don't want to show it or breed from it. I want a PET.
I bred my Jack Russel bitch, she had no papers, was I irresponsible? I had 2 people wanting pups,so she had a litter and was spayed. The one pup went to Dubai with a vet.
If you read my original post, it was for ideas of questions, not to start a cat fight of who is right or wrong. I want a pet, if I find a nice bitch and she has nice pups, the dog is nice too, whats wrong with that.
You will never stop people breeding what they want with whoever, pedigree dogs have been interbred and line bred. The same with horses. Thats why pedigrees have breed specific problems.

 

[Ranyhyn]

You will never stop people breeding what they want with whoever

You could, if no-one bought them.

As for your JRT if you had papers for her you'd be a very special breeder, as there's no such thing as a papered JRT, so no - nothing wrong with that so long as you had homes for them all.

And as for what you asked for, a lot of the time the best help, isn't exactly what you asked for.

 

[bonny]

For what it's worth I am with you on this. If you've had 5 before and like these pups and their mum and dad then I would say just go for it. My neighbours have bought a very expensive GSD that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. From show lines and supposedly a very good family but it looks awful and is now collasping with what the vet says is growing pains ! He's only 6 months old.

 

[ridebumble]

Ok ... don't want a fight with you ... I strongly disagree with the ethics of buying a pup from a dubious breeder ... you want a puppy and aren't prepared to pay so you will buy from them and I hope all works out well for you and the puppy. If it doesn't and you see another litter for sale from the same bitch in 5 months then you are obviously supporting back to back breeding.

 

[minmax]

I too have seen (expensive show) GSD's that are an awful shape, with dodgy temps.
I would like to think I can tell if a dog is nasty or not, or its hips are knackered or not. I worked at a rescue(where I got 2 of my GSD's from) so I know all the horror stories of most breeds of dogs. I also know that if they can't sell something they will chuck it out, or it ends up in a rescue. They will then breed again, then again. If we could spay/ castrate all pets that would stop it but how would you police it? The same with all animals to an extent.
As I said, I was asking for questions to ask the breeder.
Thanks to all those with constructive advice.