Gingerwitch
Well-Known Member
That is an uncomfortable justification to me, maybe if he has severe consequences some others may sit up and take it a bit more seriously.
Gordon Elliott
- Thread starter Clodagh
- Start date
lar
Well-Known Member
Just be careful on this - as far as I can tell from the reports he was only "convicted" of leaving the horse unattended. There was no evidence that he sedated the horse nor could they prove a third party had done it as there was no CCTV in the stables. There was also no link proved between Byrnes and the betting account.
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
There was a great interview on the radio - possibly Brough Scott? - can't remember
Anyway, the gist was that the public (as a whole, not just racing fans) accept racing on the understanding that racehorses are treated well
It was a sort of contract, he said; the public will forgive the occasional awful accident if they think horses are looked after as well as possible
Sure, awful things can happen to any horse, but it's probably only in racing that fatalities happen in front of crowds of many thousands or on live TV
There's always an outcry from the animal rights people after particularly grim meetings anyway. We didn't think hunting would be banned until it was
Anyway, the gist was that the public (as a whole, not just racing fans) accept racing on the understanding that racehorses are treated well
It was a sort of contract, he said; the public will forgive the occasional awful accident if they think horses are looked after as well as possible
Sure, awful things can happen to any horse, but it's probably only in racing that fatalities happen in front of crowds of many thousands or on live TV
There's always an outcry from the animal rights people after particularly grim meetings anyway. We didn't think hunting would be banned until it was
YorkshireLady
Well-Known Member
That is it - its the contract with the public that is broken by this.
tristar
Well-Known Member
no this is since the charles byrnes thing when a horse was sedated in the stables whilst left unattended for a short while at tramore racecourse in waterford, it was announced on feb 21st 2021
Mule
Well-Known Member
Do you mean that their hearts are too big for their bodies? Or that their bodies are too big for their hearts?
doodle
Well-Known Member
I just hate the sort of acceptance that horses dropping dead when their heart gives out, be that in training or a race, is ok and “it just happens”. I do understand the huge numbers of horses in training makes it more common but if the same rate happened in other sports it would not be allowed. Of course there are leisure horses dying every day too but it just dosnt sit right that some horses literally give their all for us humans and it is just accepted.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
heart attacks happen in leisure horses but there are many more racehorses than leisure horses. i have been around horses for over 50 years but wouldnt have been in contact with thousands of horses. in the small number of horses i know of personally through friends, there have been 4 who had heart attacks. all were in regular work either hacking or low level/riding club competing with no known problems , one had just got back from a quiet hack and collapsed, one was the lead horse for the riding school and was on a walk/trot hack, one was mid canter across the field and another was found dead in his field. these were all at different yards so no link apart from the fact that the owners were friends of mine....then there are the broken legs from playing in the field so these things happen in leisure horses but the general public dont know about these.. GE has done a lot of harm to the racing industry
reynold
Well-Known Member
Whatever the motive for publishing the picture and video were the result is that there is intense public scrutiny of racing for the immediate future which means that Cheltenham is going to be watched, closely.
ITV will be showing 6 races per day on their main channel.
Racing does not need images of exhausted horses being continued with or crawling over the last 2 fences. Nor does it need the images of hurdlers falling at speed due to bunching and excessive speed, particularly at the start of races with large fields.
Trainers at this moment for the good of the sport should be considering whether some of their horses are REALLY good enough to be running at Cheltenham and if not, should be withdrawing them to fight another day, perhaps at a lower grade track. I know dreams are made at Cheltenham but also potential disaster looms.
Similarly jockeys should really make sure that they pull up as soon as possible and not be seen 20 lengths behind on a horse with no chance continuing until it's exhausted.
If owners truely love the sport they are involved with then they should understand that this is not the moment to 'take a chance' as public image is important.
I speak as someone who spent a decade working for a NH permit holder with lower grade horses running at Fontwell, Folkestone and Plumpton. We did have a dream one year and had a runner in the Whitbread but in hindsight we should really have left him in his own grade. The same applies to some of the runners due to compete at the festival.
Look after the sport by being realistic.
Personally I hope that GE gets a 10 year ban, but as Elf stated it is more likely to be a fine.
ITV will be showing 6 races per day on their main channel.
Racing does not need images of exhausted horses being continued with or crawling over the last 2 fences. Nor does it need the images of hurdlers falling at speed due to bunching and excessive speed, particularly at the start of races with large fields.
Trainers at this moment for the good of the sport should be considering whether some of their horses are REALLY good enough to be running at Cheltenham and if not, should be withdrawing them to fight another day, perhaps at a lower grade track. I know dreams are made at Cheltenham but also potential disaster looms.
Similarly jockeys should really make sure that they pull up as soon as possible and not be seen 20 lengths behind on a horse with no chance continuing until it's exhausted.
If owners truely love the sport they are involved with then they should understand that this is not the moment to 'take a chance' as public image is important.
I speak as someone who spent a decade working for a NH permit holder with lower grade horses running at Fontwell, Folkestone and Plumpton. We did have a dream one year and had a runner in the Whitbread but in hindsight we should really have left him in his own grade. The same applies to some of the runners due to compete at the festival.
Look after the sport by being realistic.
Personally I hope that GE gets a 10 year ban, but as Elf stated it is more likely to be a fine.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Are jockeys still expected to ride out to the finish even when their horse has no chance and has maybe tired? I hate seeing exhausted horses being made to run on when their chance is gone.
*I’m clearly no racing expert, but I do watch the big meetings*
*I’m clearly no racing expert, but I do watch the big meetings*
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Did you miss an "in" out of that sentence SG? More heart attacks in race horses? Because I don't think it can be true that there are many more racehorses than leisure horses?
I've seen two heart attack fatalities out hunting, possibly 3 but one was imo avoidable. I had a 6 year old of my own drop dead out on a hack from a ruptured aorta. It happens, unfortunately.
bonny
Well-Known Member
No, they have to pull the horse up if it’s got no chance and is getting tired, lots of horses don’t finish the race and jockeys don’t want to fall at the end of the race if they are out of contention.
Elf On A Shelf
...
Hearts too big for their bodies. Thoroughbreds have huge hearts because the work they do increases the muscle volume a great deal. The bigger the heart the greater risk of it going wrong. Take Big River for example - his heart is larger than your average TB's and so it flips into Atrial Fibrillation on occassion - it has done this 3x when racing. Twice it has reset itself with 24 hours, once we was dosed with Quinine but the process had to stop as his body couldn't cope with it so he was electric shocked back into rhythm a few weeks later. Tb's hearts work very, very hard. They are pumping so much blood round the body every single second and obviously even more so when working hard. Same for any animal really though many are not asked to work as hard nor as fast as a racehorse. Studies have shown the bigger the heart the better the racehose. One For Arthur's heart is bigger than Big River's.
So yes heart attacks are more prevalent in racehorses because of how they are bred and how they are trained.
As to horses running til they are exhausted - yes under idiot jockeys who don't know when to quit. BUT this will not be happening at Cheltenham. I can see all the lads being given strict instructions by the stewards to pull up the moment they know they have no hope. Racing quite simply can not afford for anything to go wrong right now. Jockeys can be banned and fined for failing to pull up a tired horse and I expect the Cheltenham stewards will use this to full effect for the meeting.
I also expect there will be fewer runners at Cheltenham because owners can't go. Yes everyone wants a runner at Cheltenham but they would rather be there to see it run than watch it on a tv screen. A lot of horses go just because they can to give the owners a day out. No day out, no point in wasting a run when the horse could win elsewhere the following week.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Sadly though in any situation where we keep animals that is inevitably what happens; domestic animals don't have choices really (or very few) and farm animals are literally produced to give their all.
doodle
Well-Known Member
I agree and that’s why I don’t eat them (but don’t want to get in to the whole veggie argument)
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, I wasn't trying to derail the thread lol but I do think that it is difficult sometimes for us (collective us!) to remember that any domestic animal gives their all through no real choice, even where there are very strong bonds of empathy and partnership there. I think that is certainly one reason why any animal which has died in a situation related to human activity should be treated with respect.
Quigleyandme
Well-Known Member
An Irish owner with horses at Elliott’s yard and another trainer have appealed to the public to back off Elliott now before he is completely destroyed mentally and harms himself. He has been “stripped bare and publicly flogged”, his reputation and business irreparably damaged and enough is enough. Both men comment on the first class facilities at his yard but seem to miss the point that 5* facilities to woo owners do not necessarily equate to 5* care beyond the care afforded a valuable unit of production as directed by the man in charge. Although I’m sure the vast majority of staff have a genuine and deep-seated love and respect for their charges how much autonomy do they have in a huge yard like this? I really don’t know as I have no experience whatsoever but I bet they are kept really busy. Oh and you Brits have issued the ban because you are sick of Irish trained horses winning everything and you are generally anti-Irish as evidenced by Pontins. That contribution is from some rando on talk back radio.
bonny
Well-Known Member
Plenty of truth in all that
Elf On A Shelf
...
I agree. But I would hate to see the Irish banned from Cheltenham - all Irish not just certain ones.
It has been an interesting season over here without the Irish to contend with. Obviously we have won all the big races but without them to challenge us and us them do we all honestly know the quality of everyone's horses? Cheltenham will be interesting for sure when they do all clash! It may even be the most interesting Fesstival for a good few years!
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I feel that things are a bit blurred: the stupid thing he got caught doing does not equal cruelty. It is much more than likely that the staff at the yard take very good care of the horses (I doubt that they would win as regularly as they do if they were badly treated). I know people who have had horses at this yard and they had no complaints at the time. The baying social media mob aspect is to be expected I suppose, as ever it's not an edifying sight.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I think the BHA said today they hope he can run at Cheltenham. It will be a hollow victory for the Brits if the best aren’t there.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
There's a shortage of good staff in racing AFIAK. Good staff will find jobs elsewhere. I won't be heartbroken if Gordon Elliot was out of a job after all this, no. I would hope more owners will vote with their feet and move their horses elsewhere.
Do you think owners should be forced to keep their horses with him?
bonny
Well-Known Member
How can anyone be forced to have horses with him ?
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Yes. Also young, apparently healthy youngsters dying in the field. And healthy horses being sent to slaughter because they haven't made the grade.
This isn't the only reality for racehorses, but there is, IME a dark side to the sport.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
Well that's what I mean- people are saying the staff shouldn't lose their jobs, and I have huge sympathy for his staff, but also if owners leave that's what will inevitably happen. And owners obviously should be allowed to leave.
MissMay
Well-Known Member
The entire thing sits funny with me.
AFAIK at no point has there ever been a suggestion of GE cruelty or mistreatment so whilst what he did was distasteful and disrespectful he was not cruel, the horse had no awareness.
So whilst of course there should be a consequence to actions, claiming to want life time ban, loose his business etc etc is all a bit much he is being tried by social media which is wrong. He made a bad decision which will impact his career forever but people have done much much much worse and got away with a lighter sentence he is unlucky in 2 aspects
1- timing, when the focus was already on racing
2- the social aspect of it is bringing people who are already against the racing industry to want him thing drawn and quartered.
whilst i will never ever support his choice he does not deserve this level of public hate wanting him to loose everything and become destroyed. Every one has made a decision you regret 99% of us are lucky those decisions dont get used to destroy our entire professional and personal lives
AFAIK at no point has there ever been a suggestion of GE cruelty or mistreatment so whilst what he did was distasteful and disrespectful he was not cruel, the horse had no awareness.
So whilst of course there should be a consequence to actions, claiming to want life time ban, loose his business etc etc is all a bit much he is being tried by social media which is wrong. He made a bad decision which will impact his career forever but people have done much much much worse and got away with a lighter sentence he is unlucky in 2 aspects
1- timing, when the focus was already on racing
2- the social aspect of it is bringing people who are already against the racing industry to want him thing drawn and quartered.
whilst i will never ever support his choice he does not deserve this level of public hate wanting him to loose everything and become destroyed. Every one has made a decision you regret 99% of us are lucky those decisions dont get used to destroy our entire professional and personal lives
Velcrobum
Well-Known Member
Hi Elf I know Irish horses have not been racing here and vice versa why is there an exception for Cheltenham and Aintree???
bonny
Well-Known Member
They have been racing here
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
It is just more expensive and harder to bring them over, and staff with them have to isolate on return.
Flame_
Well-Known Member
Regarding the appropriate punishment for damage to the overall reputation of racing, I hope that the establishment are gunning as hard for whoever leaked the photo. Given the timing and everything it's clearly a personal vendetta/ revenge thing.
Yes perhaps, there should be consequences for GE (though I personally consider all this hoo-hah punishment enough for getting caught doing a stupid, crass thing), but whoever has put out that photo has an equal hand in the damage to racing's reputation and they've chosen to do it for a personal agenda, they haven't just acted like a prick in front of their mates.
ETA Even if they aren't punishable in racing conduct terms, they're going to face some serious comeuppance one way or another, I'd say.
Yes perhaps, there should be consequences for GE (though I personally consider all this hoo-hah punishment enough for getting caught doing a stupid, crass thing), but whoever has put out that photo has an equal hand in the damage to racing's reputation and they've chosen to do it for a personal agenda, they haven't just acted like a prick in front of their mates.
ETA Even if they aren't punishable in racing conduct terms, they're going to face some serious comeuppance one way or another, I'd say.
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