Gordon Elliott

bonny

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I don’t know what he thinks privately. I’m basing my judgement off the public statement he has issued, and actions he has taken. Which I think is reasonable, as that’s presumably the whole point of giving the statement. All I know, is that if one of my horses was treated like that by the trainer, I wouldn’t be standing by them. And so, my opinion of him, which was already pretty low, again based on public actions and statements, continues to sink lower.

I’ve always been fairly ambivalent about racing, but there’s no doubt this nasty episode will haunt the sport for a time to come, and it validates what a lot of the public already thought.
Maybe the difference is that they actually know each other whereas you are basing your opinion on one press release. Most of the public won’t have even heard of Gordon Elliot let alone given him any thought and we won’t know the official outcome till Friday so all this speculation is just that.
 

tristar

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For the general public, horse racing walks a tight rope where horses and riders put themselves at risk of injury or death to entertain. Injury and death often played out publicly. The conflict is rationalised to a great extent by a belief that injury or death is deeply felt by the industry insiders - owners, trainers, jockeys and yard staff. They do this for the love of the animal right - this majestic creature that gives its all for us, demanding nothing in return. What GE did exposes very clearly to the public that this is not the case - this is a business and the horses are an expendable commodity. The conflict becomes too real, the injury and deaths can’t be rationalised. Its incredibly damaging for the industry full of people who do care and can show how they care - but a picture is worth a thousand words.
this is how i see a lot of horse sport, but racing has its own dirty linen, the observer investigation showed up that thousands of tb are are slaughtered every year simply because they don`t make the grade.

they are a commercial commodity in the main like it or not,, i find it harder and harder to watch jump racing, being so acutely aware of ground conditions, the inexperience of some of the jockeys, the pressure to get out of the horse whatever they can, its no picnic sometimes, the sheer weight of a horse when it falls at top speed and the unavoidable injury to such a delicately constructed frame

recently i have detected a sensitivity from commentators inc ex jockeys, a sort of uncomfortable -ness when there is an accident as if they are increasingly aware of when it goes right its great, but when it does`nt its very upsetting for all concerned especially the viewing public, and how can you justify it, i feel exactly the same
 

Pearlsasinger

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I don’t know what he thinks privately. I’m basing my judgement off the public statement he has issued, and actions he has taken. Which I think is reasonable, as that’s presumably the whole point of giving the statement. All I know, is that if one of my horses was treated like that by the trainer, I wouldn’t be standing by them. And so, my opinion of him, which was already pretty low, again based on public actions and statements, continues to sink lower.

I’ve always been fairly ambivalent about racing, but there’s no doubt this nasty episode will haunt the sport for a time to come, and it validates what a lot of the public already thought.

I think this is exactly what everyone should do. I really wish people would not post speculating what figures in the public eye, for any reason, would do in various circumstances, when they/we can't possibly know. Quite apart from anything else it weakens the argument for anyone to respect that poster's judgement. There is an awful lot of it going on on the H& thread, too.
 

sportsmansB

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He was really stupid
He knows the public perception of racing is through the floor and he should be mindful of that
He should also be mindful that most people who love and work with horses like them too much to treat a body like that, even if it is just a carcass. It is disrespectful to the horse, and would be to the owner if the owner wasn't O'Leary who probably doesn't give a toot

I didn't like seeing the photo (never like seeing deceased horses tbh) but I would be much, much more upset to see evidence of him mistreating a live horse. He personally didn't actually cause this one harm (outside of the whole whether racing is right or wrong debate) and continuing the witch hunt only damages horse sport even more. A hefty fine, a short but painful ban (missing cheltenham for eg) and lets move on and try and rebuild some respect for horse sport in general. The longer this drags on the worse it is.
 

tristar

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He was really stupid
He knows the public perception of racing is through the floor and he should be mindful of that
He should also be mindful that most people who love and work with horses like them too much to treat a body like that, even if it is just a carcass. It is disrespectful to the horse, and would be to the owner if the owner wasn't O'Leary who probably doesn't give a toot

I didn't like seeing the photo (never like seeing deceased horses tbh) but I would be much, much more upset to see evidence of him mistreating a live horse. He personally didn't actually cause this one harm (outside of the whole whether racing is right or wrong debate) and continuing the witch hunt only damages horse sport even more. A hefty fine, a short but painful ban (missing cheltenham for eg) and lets move on and try and rebuild some respect for horse sport in general. The longer this drags on the worse it is.
do you think it maybe a catalyst that brings about changes though, ? or lets move on, but it all gets a little swept under the carpet sort of a thing?
 

meleeka

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do you think it maybe a catalyst that brings about changes though, ? or lets move on, but it all gets a little swept under the carpet sort of a thing?
What changes would you expect? I imagine people that deal with dead bodies would already be making sure they didn’t let a camera anywhere near and were sensitive in their handling. I don’t think that photo has made racing anymore controversial than it was before. I’m not comfortable with the continued witch hunt either. I think he should be punished, of course, but to go from that photo to accusing him of being cruel to the horses in his care is a big jump. People aren’t going to change their views on racing, you either accept its a downside that horses die, or you don’t.
 

Wishfilly

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What changes would you expect? I imagine people that deal with dead bodies would already be making sure they didn’t let a camera anywhere near and were sensitive in their handling. I don’t think that photo has made racing anymore controversial than it was before. I’m not comfortable with the continued witch hunt either. I think he should be punished, of course, but to go from that photo to accusing him of being cruel to the horses in his care is a big jump. People aren’t going to change their views on racing, you either accept its a downside that horses die, or you don’t.
It's not just that photo- it's the fact that another video showing similar has come out showing someone also involved in his set up. I think this suggests a culture towards the horses that makes me feel uncomfortable.

I also think it's made people aware of the fact that horses do die during training, which I think is something some people weren't aware of/didn't consider.
 

Fellewell

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Our local fallen stock man obviously needs to deal with bodies on a daily basis. He’s respectful of every animal. Showing something respect isn’t the same as caring for it in order for it to perform to its best.
And it's the caring for them while they're alive that counts.
The standards at Mr Elliott's yard have never been in question. Owners have described conditions there as top class and his results speak for themselves. Horses, as we know, can be surprisingly uncooperative if they're not happy and settled.
He has lost some top horses now, this will be hurting him, unsettling these horses, and affecting their chances of success. This alone would be punishment enough for any trainer.
There will always be someone with an agenda, just waiting for a photo opportunity to destroy someone. They have released this at a crucial time in the knowledge that social media would do the rest for them.
We should leave it to the authorities now and hope that the penalty is in proportion to the alleged offence.
 

Tiddlypom

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People aren’t going to change their views on racing, you either accept its a downside that horses die, or you don’t.
Hmm, I think it will change some people’s views. Seeing horses die on the course is bad enough, but becoming aware that they can also die in training is another.

I’m ambivalent about racing. I love seeing finely tuned equine athletes at the top of their game, but I hate the deaths and seeing exhausted horses stumbling on.

I also like to think that they are treated like kings when in training. That photo has certainly made me revise my view.
 

Ellibelli

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People aren’t going to change their views on racing said:
I'm not sure about this. I used to love watching NH racing but I can't nowadays as the falls make me cringe. I do believe it's only a matter of time before racing, especially NH, is banned and in 50 years time people will look back in horror at the practice of sending 40 horses around a course of massive fences, knowing at least one of them will probably die, just for entertainment purposes. Unfortunately I think the recent photo's and videos will bring that ban forward - and then eventing will probably be next.......
 

Rowreach

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you are so right, but over and over again in the horse world the use of horses in extreme sport throws up unsolvable moral dilemmas
Actually it's not just "extreme" horse sport, in fact most of those horses are far better off than the ones I see owned by the average horse owner who may have extremely limited knowledge (and funds). I mean, if we're getting into what is morally justifiable to do to a horse, then riding it at all is arguably not in it's best interests.
 

Mrs Jingle

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Very off topic but a little light hearted observation seeing Michael O'Leary's name mentioned. Back in the day I went to a very well known dealer's yard over here in Ireland, to try a horse they had for sale.

After trying it I decided not to buy for reasons I won't go into on here. The dealer tried to change my mind with these words that he obviously thought would seal the deal. But you must want it...... do you know that Michael O'leary owned it.....this is some horse???? He was absolutely incredulous when I said I don't care who owns it I am not buying it lol!

Sorry off topic but I often chuckle when I remember that day and still wonder did someone eventually buy it purely because Michael O'Leary owned it! :D:D
 
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AdorableAlice

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Very off topic but a little light heated observation seeing Michael O'Leary's name mentioned. Back in the day I went to a very well known dealer's yard over here in Ireland, to try a horse they had for sale.

After trying it I decided not to buy for reasons I won't go into on here. The dealer tried to change my mind with these words that he obviously thought would seal the deal. But you must want it...... do you know that Michael O'leary owned it.....this is some horse???? He was absolutely incredulous when I said I don't care who owns it I am not buying it lol!

Sorry off topic but I often chuckle when I remember that day and still wonder did someone eventually buy it purely because Michael O'Leary owned it! :D:D
I have a similar story, but I did buy the horse. Mine was owned and trained by a British Olympic dressage rider and honestly described as not going to go beyond AM level so for sale as a pleasure horse back in 2004. The name did not faze me at all and they certainly had good taste in horse quality ! The only thing that got to me was the lesson offered to me before I made my mind up. I was incredibly nervous to be riding in front of such greatness and it soon became apparent such greatness realised I was pretty useless !

Such greatness was and still is stick thin, all legs and boots elegantly wrapped around the horse who floated around the arena with invisible buttons being pressed. I get on and all the flabby bits press all the buttons at the same time and achieve every dressage movement forwards, backwards and sideways all at the same time.
 

tristar

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Actually it's not just "extreme" horse sport, in fact most of those horses are far better off than the ones I see owned by the average horse owner who may have extremely limited knowledge (and funds). I mean, if we're getting into what is morally justifiable to do to a horse, then riding it at all is arguably not in it's best interests.[/QUOTE




opposite polarities throw up different moral considerations, yes don`t ride a horse, if you think its wrong, i don`t care what you do, then maybe it won`t exist at all, actually



daily on here you can see the lengths people go to when their horses need care and the dedication the average person puts in when their horses are ill is amazing

the life of a racehorse is like living with russian roulette, the glory or the slaughterhouse, and sometimes a happy ending in a rehome or if you drop down dead someone sits on you
 

tristar

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I have a similar story, but I did buy the horse. Mine was owned and trained by a British Olympic dressage rider and honestly described as not going to go beyond AM level so for sale as a pleasure horse back in 2004. The name did not faze me at all and they certainly had good taste in horse quality ! The only thing that got to me was the lesson offered to me before I made my mind up. I was incredibly nervous to be riding in front of such greatness and it soon became apparent such greatness realised I was pretty useless !

Such greatness was and still is stick thin, all legs and boots elegantly wrapped around the horse who floated around the arena with invisible buttons being pressed. I get on and all the flabby bits press all the buttons at the same time and achieve every dressage movement forwards, backwards and sideways all at the same time.
now now, more than hint of sarcasm in there!

yes how do get to be so thin?
 

Orangehorse

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Racehorses do get looked after very well in 99% of cases. I don't think the non racing public knows quite how many checks and regulations there are.

Everything is done to get that small improvement to fitness and well being, as that can mean the difference between winning and being second.

Having said that, the racehorse is an athlete and sent out to race which means having to make maximum effort which is seldom required of most other horses. Even hunters on a hard day get a breather every so often.
 

HorsesRule2009

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I am really hating the trial by social media atm.
Yes he's done wrong, but he hasn't physically hard the horse in the photo, and as previous poster has said racehorses are well cared for and looked after as they will preform better.

Also (not directed at anyone here just in general) I'm sure nearly everyone at some point in their life has made a really silly decision on one with out thinking and nearly instantly regretted it? I know that doesn't excuse what is happening here but it's literally a snap shot in time, and the people wanting him to loose everything seems slightly wrong, there's far worse abuse to horses/animals that definitely do deserve the highest penaltys but don't think this is one. Yes probably deserves a small ban and a fine.
Just my thoughts
 

Teaboy

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I’m always torn on racing, part of me loves it (I have worked in it) another part of me hates the throw away nature of it for some yards. I’ve heard of yards shooting their failed ones without a second thought, not just one or two but lots! Not even bothering to attempt to find them new homes. This kind of thinking has to change. Gordon Elliot deserves a temporary ban IMO but certainly we don’t need the trial by social media.
 

Rowreach

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There is making silly mistakes and there is making silly mistakes.

If instead of a horse it had been a human, would your thoughts be different? If so why or why not?

If it had been a rare species would your opinion be the same too?
No, because those things are not remotely comparable and I would have a different view on each.

I cannot get my head around people being so vitriolic over a picture of a horse that died in training (sadly all sorts of horses drop dead sometimes) and less worked up about the blatant cruelty to living breathing ones (like showjumpers beating the sh1t out of a horse in the ring, or showing producers leaving horses standing in tight draw reins, or rollkur or people who starve their animals.

This thread just reads like a personal vendetta against someone probably no more than a couple of us have ever met, if that.
 

HorsesRule2009

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There is making silly mistakes and there is making silly mistakes.

If instead of a horse it had been a human, would your thoughts be different? If so why or why not?

If it had been a rare species would your opinion be the same too?
I possibly would have a similar view as long as they hadn't actually killed the animal. (can't really compare to a human as that's weird)
To me as others have said up post, the deadbody is no longer the being, its doesn't fell or no what was happening. As I've said before I don't agree or condone it but a silly mistake probably from a rash or impulsive thought.
 

Archangel

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There is making silly mistakes and there is making silly mistakes.

If instead of a horse it had been a human, would your thoughts be different? If so why or why not?

If it had been a rare species would your opinion be the same too?
I was thinking the other day in a moment of off piste randomness... if Gordon Elliot had put one of his cars (presuming not an old banger) in for servicing and he went in to find one of the mechanics lounging on the roof or lying in the back with his feet up on the headrest, yapping on the phone - I wonder what his response would have been.
 

Rowreach

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I was thinking the other day in a moment of off piste randomness... if Gordon Elliot had put one of his cars (presuming not an old banger) in for servicing and he went in to find one of the mechanics lounging on the roof or lying in the back with his feet up on the headrest, yapping on the phone - I wonder what his response would have been.
I doubt he would have set about destroying his life, his business, and putting multiple people out of work somehow.
 

shortstuff99

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No, because those things are not remotely comparable and I would have a different view on each.

I cannot get my head around people being so vitriolic over a picture of a horse that died in training (sadly all sorts of horses drop dead sometimes) and less worked up about the blatant cruelty to living breathing ones (like showjumpers beating the sh1t out of a horse in the ring, or showing producers leaving horses standing in tight draw reins, or rollkur or people who starve their animals.

This thread just reads like a personal vendetta against someone probably no more than a couple of us have ever met, if that.
Well that's the thing isn't it? Some people don't really see the difference between a human or a horse as they were each a living, thinking being that deserved respect after their death. I am not as worked up about the death then I am about the mocking of it (and that is what it was). Why is the horse deemed less worthy then a human in death?

I am also worked upon about cruelty to living horses, I have room enough to be bothered by both.
 

Pearlsasinger

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There is making silly mistakes and there is making silly mistakes.

If instead of a horse it had been a human, would your thoughts be different? If so why or why not?

If it had been a rare species would your opinion be the same too?


If someone had been photo'd sitting on a dead person, there would very likely been all sorts of unsavoury, sexual connotations, so that isn't comparable.
If it had been a rare species that had died of natural causes, as this horse did, I would have thought pretty much the same as I do about the horse pic, it's a silly thing to do but not the end of the world.
I have wondered if the reason GE sat on the horse was because it was the only time he could do so without being chucked off.
 

tristar

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No, because those things are not remotely comparable and I would have a different view on each.

I cannot get my head around people being so vitriolic over a picture of a horse that died in training (sadly all sorts of horses drop dead sometimes) and less worked up about the blatant cruelty to living breathing ones (like showjumpers beating the sh1t out of a horse in the ring, or showing producers leaving horses standing in tight draw reins, or rollkur or people who starve their animals.

This thread just reads like a personal vendetta against someone probably no more than a couple of us have ever met, if that.

the thing is he is supposed to be at the top of his game and his public exposure means he needs to consider the sports image in every small thing he does, he is the top irish trainer single handedly in charge of the image, the power is in his hand at this moment in time to raise or crash down the sports image in the eyes of the world

i have been to so many international sj competitions all over and i have never seen a rider beat a horse in the ring or before and after, at lower levels maybe
 
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