Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Raw is just too expensive prepared. Mine look good on MWH and I will stick with it I think. Other info is always interesting though.
Grain free food discussion on current concerns
- Thread starter Aru
- Start date
Raw is just too expensive prepared. Mine look good on MWH and I will stick with it I think. Other info is always interesting though.
planete
Well-Known Member
I am going to stick to MWH's Riverside for now. It seems to avoid the suspected triggers apart from some pea fibre at between 2 and 4% which is lower than most other GF foods and has no exotic meats.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Interesting regards the peas. I changed Daisy from Fish4Dogs because of the increase in pea content. Purely coincidentally because she seemed allergic suddenly.
Aru
Well-Known Member
BlackadderUK I suggest you join that facebook site and say the same to the people whose dogs are dead or affected and see how well it goes down...the owners there will have more sympathy than me though...most would have felt similarly to you before their dogs were affected.
Not everything is a conspiracy of the big brand foods. I don't work for them shockingly enough! hilariously I work within a pet shop that sells all types of food..including grain-free and raw so I don't personally have a bias over what I need to recommend at work. My sharing on here is 100 percent my own opinions and concerns.
I do agree this is about profit for the record....but I suspect my idea of whos profiting from these deaths is dramatically different to yours.
How many dogs would you accept as diagnosed with an issue that's potentially linked to a food before a brand should be recalled out of curiosity?
Dermacare in Australia, an Advance brand, was linked to megaoesophagus and the company recalled the entire range while they tried to find out why it was happening...Hills just fecked up royally and recalled multiple prescription foods because of a Vitamin contamination issue that was causing deaths... recalling is part of the cost of business if you are a reputable food brand. Recalling is about damage control and not killing off your client base....
Yet none of these wonderful little niche companies, or indeed larger brands selling grain-free who are all about health and well being and natural food.... seem to be doing the same out of the goodness if their hearts are they?
Because it will affect profits....and ALL pet foods are about profit. Companies and Business exist to make profits.
In my opinon, they are waiting it out and hoping it can't be proven to be their fault...and when the research eventually does comes out and may well implicate them...
some will still scream about how it's a conspiracy to put them under by the big brands...
or they will just modify their foods accordingly and try and say it's not their fault as it wasn't directly proven immediately and the vets should have told them earlier and proven the link better quicker....
I mean how could they possibly have known their foods would kill some dogs? or that feeding unusual things to animals can have dramatic consequences
(BSE anyone? where nutritionists decided cows could be cannibals because it was cheap protein)
By spending money on clinical trials is the answer to avoiding this situation btw..but again it cuts profits considerably...soo....
I was expecting more replies like this though.
Surprised it took this long.
I would seriously recommend joining the facebook group though. The stories are generally from very dedicated owners like yourself who love their dogs and thought they were doing the best thing for them.
These are the owners who are reporting the issue..the ones who have brought their dogs to have heart scans with cardiologists who reported the sudden change in presentations to the FDA etc...
The question is how many dogs out there are being affected and it just hasn't become apparent yet? or who have died but no one realised it was because potentially because of the food.
Hopefully, it will all blow over and just be another blip in the nutrition evolution of animal food and a specific exact reason can be found...but why take that chance?
Not everything is a conspiracy of the big brand foods. I don't work for them shockingly enough! hilariously I work within a pet shop that sells all types of food..including grain-free and raw so I don't personally have a bias over what I need to recommend at work. My sharing on here is 100 percent my own opinions and concerns.
I do agree this is about profit for the record....but I suspect my idea of whos profiting from these deaths is dramatically different to yours.
How many dogs would you accept as diagnosed with an issue that's potentially linked to a food before a brand should be recalled out of curiosity?
Dermacare in Australia, an Advance brand, was linked to megaoesophagus and the company recalled the entire range while they tried to find out why it was happening...Hills just fecked up royally and recalled multiple prescription foods because of a Vitamin contamination issue that was causing deaths... recalling is part of the cost of business if you are a reputable food brand. Recalling is about damage control and not killing off your client base....
Yet none of these wonderful little niche companies, or indeed larger brands selling grain-free who are all about health and well being and natural food.... seem to be doing the same out of the goodness if their hearts are they?
Because it will affect profits....and ALL pet foods are about profit. Companies and Business exist to make profits.
In my opinon, they are waiting it out and hoping it can't be proven to be their fault...and when the research eventually does comes out and may well implicate them...
some will still scream about how it's a conspiracy to put them under by the big brands...
or they will just modify their foods accordingly and try and say it's not their fault as it wasn't directly proven immediately and the vets should have told them earlier and proven the link better quicker....
I mean how could they possibly have known their foods would kill some dogs? or that feeding unusual things to animals can have dramatic consequences
(BSE anyone? where nutritionists decided cows could be cannibals because it was cheap protein)
By spending money on clinical trials is the answer to avoiding this situation btw..but again it cuts profits considerably...soo....
I was expecting more replies like this though.
Surprised it took this long.
I would seriously recommend joining the facebook group though. The stories are generally from very dedicated owners like yourself who love their dogs and thought they were doing the best thing for them.
These are the owners who are reporting the issue..the ones who have brought their dogs to have heart scans with cardiologists who reported the sudden change in presentations to the FDA etc...
The question is how many dogs out there are being affected and it just hasn't become apparent yet? or who have died but no one realised it was because potentially because of the food.
Hopefully, it will all blow over and just be another blip in the nutrition evolution of animal food and a specific exact reason can be found...but why take that chance?
TGM
Well-Known Member
It does seem odd that all the headlines about about the dangers of 'grain-free' food but actually when you read more deeply into the subject, it seems more likely the danger is coming from 'high legume' feeds instead. I see from the FB group that although there are many suppliers of grain-free food, it seems that over 50% of reported cases are linked to just three brands, which all seem to have a very high legume content.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Which brands TGM?
TGM
Well-Known Member
See the following links:
http://lakeharrietvet.com/faqs/LHV_Taurine_110218_web.pdf
https://truthaboutpetfood.com/dcm-study-misses-the-big-picture/
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Aru
Well-Known Member
TGM its because there's such a massive host of foods listed that I stuck grain-free in the original heading as it was the easiest. Happy to modify it if needed though. May have went with that because its the easiest to recognise and writing BEG in a heading I thought would be confusing...all the links I've posted mention a lot more detail than my ramblings....
I just stuck down a heading to start the discussion
I wouldn't post the brands on here unless you want the fat controller to delete the entire discussion. Until it's published officially that sort of thing invites litigation.
I just stuck down a heading to start the discussion
I wouldn't post the brands on here unless you want the fat controller to delete the entire discussion. Until it's published officially that sort of thing invites litigation.
TGM
Well-Known Member
I wasn't just referring to your heading, just in general when it is discussed it seems to be about 'grain-free foods' when in fact it seems nothing to do with the lack of grain in the diet.
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Aru
Well-Known Member
https://truthaboutpetfood.com/no-grain-free-dog-food-heart-disease-in-europe-why/
This also looks very interesting....and means I need to apologise if I worried anyone on here about their dogfood...because if this is true then the eu regulations for pet food may be already preventing this from being an issue in the uk!
Fingers crossed anyway...will go look into it in the morning.
This also looks very interesting....and means I need to apologise if I worried anyone on here about their dogfood...because if this is true then the eu regulations for pet food may be already preventing this from being an issue in the uk!
Fingers crossed anyway...will go look into it in the morning.
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
the comments after that article make me want to punch myself.
BlackadderUK
Well-Known Member
@Aru
I accept your comments RE: profit, no-one works for nothing but....
"How many dogs would you accept as diagnosed with an issue that's potentially linked to a food before a brand should be recalled out of curiosity?"
The word potentially is the key, there is no evidence! A few suppositions, coincidences but from who? This has not been studied & there is no evidence at all that grain free or BEG foods are responsible, if there is I'd like a link.
Is there anything from UK based bodies issuing the same warning?
Remember the joker (Dr Andrew Wakefield) who published a paper declaring a link between the MMR vaccine & autism? This caused thousands of parents to deny their children the vaccine based on nothing but one mans "understanding" for want of a better word. He was subsequently totally discredited & struck off......
It takes nothing to cause a storm on facebook, twitter et al just light the fire, chuck a couple of unproven articles in & sit back... that's how social media is, someone will always jump on a current bandwagon.
I respect your views but until there is actual evidence to the contrary I'll continue to feed mine the same grain free they've had for years
I accept your comments RE: profit, no-one works for nothing but....
"How many dogs would you accept as diagnosed with an issue that's potentially linked to a food before a brand should be recalled out of curiosity?"
The word potentially is the key, there is no evidence! A few suppositions, coincidences but from who? This has not been studied & there is no evidence at all that grain free or BEG foods are responsible, if there is I'd like a link.
Is there anything from UK based bodies issuing the same warning?
Remember the joker (Dr Andrew Wakefield) who published a paper declaring a link between the MMR vaccine & autism? This caused thousands of parents to deny their children the vaccine based on nothing but one mans "understanding" for want of a better word. He was subsequently totally discredited & struck off......
It takes nothing to cause a storm on facebook, twitter et al just light the fire, chuck a couple of unproven articles in & sit back... that's how social media is, someone will always jump on a current bandwagon.
I respect your views but until there is actual evidence to the contrary I'll continue to feed mine the same grain free they've had for years
TGM
Well-Known Member
I think it is a very difficult situation- if people feel that is a real link between a product and a health issue, should it be kept quiet until it is proven absolutely one way or the other? Waiting for conclusive proof takes time and potentially other animals could suffer in the meantime. Or should it be flagged up that there 'may' be an issue so pet owners can make up their own mind whether it is a concern. Also by flagging up a potential issue it allows other cases to be identified and reported where the link with diet may not have otherwise been made.
For the FDA to be investigating does make it sound like there is some real cause for concern.
For the FDA to be investigating does make it sound like there is some real cause for concern.
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TheOldTrout
Completely Unknown Member
So our dogs are safe until Brexit then ;-)
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I do wonder whether we are becoming over analytical about what we feed ourselves, our dogs and our horses. As with human research, it seems that what is heralded as being ‘healthy’ one minute will be being decried as awful a few years down the line....
Of course I want to do the best for my dogs, as we all do, but I’m not wholly convinced my dogs are more healthy now than they were 30 years ago when I fed other sorts of food (genuinely can’t actually remember what I fed the whippets!)
Not wanting to be negative about the thread at all, research is always interesting and useful, but I do despair of the constant changes in what ‘the right thing to do’ is
Of course I want to do the best for my dogs, as we all do, but I’m not wholly convinced my dogs are more healthy now than they were 30 years ago when I fed other sorts of food (genuinely can’t actually remember what I fed the whippets!)
Not wanting to be negative about the thread at all, research is always interesting and useful, but I do despair of the constant changes in what ‘the right thing to do’ is
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I totally agree with you. As long as our dogs are bright, alert and happy (and their poos are OK) stick with it!
druid
Well-Known Member
It's hard to decide what to feed currently - there's another paper due out in the next few weeks with confirmed TB cases in dogs and cats related to a specific brand of raw food apparently.
I've also seen reversible Fanconi syndrome which can be attributed to jerky type treats. More research showed dogs at other clinics where the treats were chicken, beef and even vegetable based - not entirely clear what the exact toxin is but those types of treats link all the cases.
Maybe a varied diet is best - I've considered feeding half of my current Grain Free and half standard "premium" kibble with a little canned morning and a little raw mince in the evening to hopefully balance it all out! Seems an awful faff
I've also seen reversible Fanconi syndrome which can be attributed to jerky type treats. More research showed dogs at other clinics where the treats were chicken, beef and even vegetable based - not entirely clear what the exact toxin is but those types of treats link all the cases.
Maybe a varied diet is best - I've considered feeding half of my current Grain Free and half standard "premium" kibble with a little canned morning and a little raw mince in the evening to hopefully balance it all out! Seems an awful faff
{97702}
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Poo is definitely better with Arden Grange than Skinners....
Things only dog and horse owners monitor (and probably parents with young children too, I've just never had any)
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I believe the jerky treats are from China. I became a label reader when my dog developed multiple allergies and IBD. Many dog treats come from there.
I found many of them also contain glycerin which I don't like to give him.
"However, some pet food manufacturers are using glycerin that is derived from biofuel processing. Glycerin produced in this matter contains significant amounts of residual methanol (wood alcohol) and sodium. Methanol is a colorless, volatile, flammable, and poisonous liquid chemical. Its principal uses are as a fuel, solvent, and antifreeze. It is also used in the manufacturing of explosives. There is no research published on the use and safety of crude glycerin from biofuels in pet foods."
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Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Poo is definitely better with Arden Grange than Skinners....
Well I could tell you a story or two about baby poo, but let's move on!
Aru
Well-Known Member
https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm630991
Most recent update I could find and explains the FDA's current findings and ongoing steps.
I'm still hunting the european side of things..there have been occasional cases in goldens in Europe on grainfree diets but the issue isn't as well reported this side of the world.
Most recent update I could find and explains the FDA's current findings and ongoing steps.
I'm still hunting the european side of things..there have been occasional cases in goldens in Europe on grainfree diets but the issue isn't as well reported this side of the world.
GSD Woman
Well-Known Member
I know the grain free/high in legumes is a very issue for dog owners in the USA. I have a working lines GSD and almost 2 years ago a grade 2 murmur was found on a routine physical. I took him to the cardiologist and had it worked up. Then the news broke about the grain free and I switched him off of grain free even though he didn't have DCM. At his last cardiologist work up the doctor almost couldn't find his murmur and lifted his anesthesia restrictions. It might just be coincidence but I won't feed grain free now.
planete
Well-Known Member
I have just done a search on Allaboutdogfood for kibble excluding peas as an ingredient. No lentils either in the results I have looked at.
Aru
Well-Known Member
Brief update.
Yes this is an issue in the UK and Europe.
Theres no one agency collecting data from this side of the world but cases of possible nutritional DCM have been reported in multiple countries in Europe.
Time will tell the longterm level of disease but some of the earlier golden reports linked with a commercial grain free food and with a case study preformed are from 2010 .. so its going to take some time for the research play out.
Belows another link thats condensed some of the imformation known so far...the most recent update from the fda is in the earlier post but I like the way this ones written out as well.
https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2018/02/08/grain-free-diets-and-dcm/amp/
Also below one of the papers from the U.S vet cardiologists showing worldwide multiple breed affected link.
Diet-associated dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs: what do know. Pdf of the file linked in below.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw3TfqNKZ9yhL42El8l2hH36&cshid=1551994055474
Yes this is an issue in the UK and Europe.
Theres no one agency collecting data from this side of the world but cases of possible nutritional DCM have been reported in multiple countries in Europe.
Time will tell the longterm level of disease but some of the earlier golden reports linked with a commercial grain free food and with a case study preformed are from 2010 .. so its going to take some time for the research play out.
Belows another link thats condensed some of the imformation known so far...the most recent update from the fda is in the earlier post but I like the way this ones written out as well.
https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2018/02/08/grain-free-diets-and-dcm/amp/
Also below one of the papers from the U.S vet cardiologists showing worldwide multiple breed affected link.
Diet-associated dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs: what do know. Pdf of the file linked in below.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw3TfqNKZ9yhL42El8l2hH36&cshid=1551994055474
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KittenInTheTree
Well-Known Member
Might be worth mentioning that alfalfa is also a legume.
MotherOfChickens
MotherDucker
does anyone know of a decent kibble that doesnt have oodles of peas/potato/alfalfa in it? I had a quick look last night and couldnt find one, even those not grain free that contain rice and/oats have lots of peas in them.
Aru
Well-Known Member
https://www.wsava.org/WSAVA/media/Arpita-and-Emma-editorial/Selecting-the-Best-Food-for-your-Pet.pdf
How select a food company according to the World small animal veterinary association.
I can cheat and tell who which companies have put the time, money and expense in and managed to follow those guidelines....
But then I suspect then people will be upset at me for recommending some of the biggest food companies in the world... and will say hows its all a conspiracy to ruin the little guys...again.
Have a read of the Units file on the facebook page. Then reevaluate what you consider good quality food and why.
Marketing is a funny thing...and it amazing how much we can manipulate people with advertising.
How select a food company according to the World small animal veterinary association.
I can cheat and tell who which companies have put the time, money and expense in and managed to follow those guidelines....
But then I suspect then people will be upset at me for recommending some of the biggest food companies in the world... and will say hows its all a conspiracy to ruin the little guys...again.
Have a read of the Units file on the facebook page. Then reevaluate what you consider good quality food and why.
Marketing is a funny thing...and it amazing how much we can manipulate people with advertising.
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Aru
Well-Known Member
Oh and another point. Voluntary recalls are not a bad thing to have on a foods record...it means the company has identified and issues and withdrawn all stock and take a financial hit rather than risk damaging their customer base with inferior or dangerous food.
It means they are performing quality control measures to check for safety and follow through when they identify an issue. We want companies to perform food safety testing and react to issues when they are identified.
If your working in the food industry you have to be looking for hazards all the time and mitigating risk. HACCAP systems are there for a reason.
There are occasional issues with the contamination -biological and chemical in a supply of food relatively regularly....and also often issues with storage etc in both human and animals food types. Testing helps catch issues..preferably before multiple deaths occur.
An enforced recalls by the likes of the FDA recall is somewhat different.
That means they have been ordered to remove the food from the market as the regulatory authority have successfully identified and proven the issue making it unsafe to be sold.
https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm049070.htm
That links sort of help explains why and when the FDA investigate and issue recalls ....and the FDA stance on releasing information to the public, this is one of the reasons why so much media attention is beginning to build now.
https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/RecallsWithdrawals/default.htm
This is the list of the current animal feed recalls and why they have been withdrawn from the market.
There's lots of vit D related recalls on the list at the moment as there was a supplier issue and multiple food lines and companies were affected. High Vit d levels can cause Hypercalcemia and can lead to kidney failure and death in dogs. Thankfully testing was being done and this wasnt ignored but there were still pets affected. The more companies test and recall fewer issues like this should occur.
As you can see....lots of reasons to be testing and constantly striving for quality levels in food.
It means they are performing quality control measures to check for safety and follow through when they identify an issue. We want companies to perform food safety testing and react to issues when they are identified.
If your working in the food industry you have to be looking for hazards all the time and mitigating risk. HACCAP systems are there for a reason.
There are occasional issues with the contamination -biological and chemical in a supply of food relatively regularly....and also often issues with storage etc in both human and animals food types. Testing helps catch issues..preferably before multiple deaths occur.
An enforced recalls by the likes of the FDA recall is somewhat different.
That means they have been ordered to remove the food from the market as the regulatory authority have successfully identified and proven the issue making it unsafe to be sold.
https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm049070.htm
That links sort of help explains why and when the FDA investigate and issue recalls ....and the FDA stance on releasing information to the public, this is one of the reasons why so much media attention is beginning to build now.
https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/RecallsWithdrawals/default.htm
This is the list of the current animal feed recalls and why they have been withdrawn from the market.
There's lots of vit D related recalls on the list at the moment as there was a supplier issue and multiple food lines and companies were affected. High Vit d levels can cause Hypercalcemia and can lead to kidney failure and death in dogs. Thankfully testing was being done and this wasnt ignored but there were still pets affected
. The more companies test and recall fewer issues like this should occur.As you can see....lots of reasons to be testing and constantly striving for quality levels in food.
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AmyMay
Situation normal
Have you looked at Barking Heads?
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
When one of mine got very ill (a digestive problem rather than a heart problem) a year or so ago, I did a trawl looking for one. Found a kibble by a company called 'Gentle', which fit the bill, but haven't fed it as it is too high in protein and energy for my midgets.