criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
Mine get's mistaken for a warmblood all the time, or a cross alot of people don't believe he's a tb because they're not used to seeing a tb with a bit of bone.
Grand National 2012- Carnage! What did everyone think?
- Thread starter ASBO Bob
- Start date
Mine get's mistaken for a warmblood all the time, or a cross alot of people don't believe he's a tb because they're not used to seeing a tb with a bit of bone.
dominobrown
Well-Known Member
My friend's pointer, who was bred to race on the flat and did quite well is huge! He is about 16.3hh with a good bit of bone. However he is still sound and on the go in his early teens. My other friend's horse who raced in the National was a french horse, however was not full TB, but quarter selle francis. He jumped round the National, raced for a few more years and retired sound.
HihoGinger
Well-Known Member
My YO has a TB by Criminal Law, so eventing stock, rather than racing stock, but he is like a brick outhouse.
Several people have taken some convincing that he is full TB. If I wanted to send a horse round the GN, or any chase for that matter, he is the type I would want. Lots of bone and a leg at each corner.
We've had a few ex flat horses on the yard and they are so dainty it's scary.
Several people have taken some convincing that he is full TB. If I wanted to send a horse round the GN, or any chase for that matter, he is the type I would want. Lots of bone and a leg at each corner.
We've had a few ex flat horses on the yard and they are so dainty it's scary.
Doncella
Well-Known Member
Yes Red Rum was flat bred but he was a freak who could jump the big fences literally from fence to fence and not break his stride. He was also supremely well balanced and quick thinking as well as being produced for the GN.
Furthermore, he was born in the 1960s so was nearer to some really good, hard, tough stallions.
Mike007
Well-Known Member
the fundamental problem is that the fences are not big enough to slow the pack down. People talk abot too many runners COBLERS look at how wide the fences are. The fact is that because the fences are lower and softer ,they all take a racing line and crowd up.Google the 1925 grand national and watch and learn. Yes there were some who should have pulled up earlier and some ugly falls as a result.But in general the only ones who took a hammering were the jockeys 
dominobrown
Well-Known Member
THats what I was saying mike. If you look on you tube there is a video of the race in 1937. No horses were killed that year but the fences are huge! However they are going really slowly compared to today's standard, so you dont get the quite the same crunching falls, more bad pecks on landing. The jockeys ride very long and' hunt' their way round.
Elf On A Shelf
...
I've been watching some old Nationals on YouTube and to be honest, the jockeys are far more sensible. They spread out, give themselves room to jump, gallop, fall and get out of the way. Todays jockeys all want to take the Brave Mans Route and they all bunch up too close together. The race is 4m4f so there is plenty of time to bring your horse into contention.
Also in some of the older ones there are clearly horses in the race that were bloomin useless and shouldn't have been therebut they hunted round at the back probably just to say they did it.
Also in some of the older ones there are clearly horses in the race that were bloomin useless and shouldn't have been therebut they hunted round at the back probably just to say they did it.
SpruceRI
Well-Known Member
A friend and I were discussing the other day what could be done to stop so many horse falls, and the main thing that came to mind was that, could the jockeys not ride in a 'proper' saddle and with longer stirrups?
I know that's not racing - but on watching some of the horse falls in slow motion, I think that riders tipping off, other horse swerving to avoid them brought others down.
If we could stop a) riders falling off so easily and b) them then being able to help the horse a little if it pecked on landing, then maybe there wouldn't be so many falls?
Can they learn anything from Team Chasers?
I know that's not racing - but on watching some of the horse falls in slow motion, I think that riders tipping off, other horse swerving to avoid them brought others down.
If we could stop a) riders falling off so easily and b) them then being able to help the horse a little if it pecked on landing, then maybe there wouldn't be so many falls?
Can they learn anything from Team Chasers?
Zerotolerance
Well-Known Member
Haven't read the entire thread and have given it a few days before posting to gather my thoughts.
I've always been a fan of the GN, since going to Aintree as a pony mad 9 year old in 1967 and falling in love with a handsome bay horse who dead heated in a flat race - that horse was Red Rum. By some strange coincidence I used to go to school in Southport in a taxi driven by one Ginger McCain.
I've watched the race every year since then, cheered the wonderful Red Rum on to all his victories and breathed a sigh of relief when he was withdrawn on the eve of the 1978 race and retired. I had other favourites - The Pilgarlic, who always plugged on round safely, getting into minor placings, Greasepaint, Hedgehunter etc.
As other people have said, the NH horses back then were a totally different build from today.
I don't think modifying the GN course will make any difference - horses are breaking down, suffering fractures and having fatal falls at racecourses all over the country, and not just when jumping.
This problem isn't just restricted to racing, either, although the speed of racing exacerbates the problem.
Showjumping, now with it's ultra light poles and shallow cups, requires lighter, ultra careful horses. Top horses don't seem to be around as long, often retiring relatively early with problems such as suspensory ligaments. I remember John Whitaker winning the Hickstead Derby on the 21 year old Gammon. I'm not so into Eventing, but can also remember Lucinda Green winning Badminton, Burghley and the Europeans on George, who was really a hunter! I doubt either of these feats would be repeated nowadays.
A few years back there was a real welfare issue with the breed standards in
dogs - They were being bred for a certain look, to the detriment of their welfare. It seems to me we could be heading the same way with top competition horses. Ordinary all round horses (I guess the equivalent of mixed breed dogs!) are living & staying in work longer now, whereas competition horses seem to have gone the other way. I can't remember the last time I saw a horse advertised with "10 ins of bone" - but do see lots of ads with pictures of foals loose jumping.
Back to the GN - I certainly wouldn't want the fences reducing further. They never should have pandered to the RSPCA in the first place. I'm with the
trainer of According to Pete, who says make the fences bigger again. I'd also reduce the prize money, so it's more about the kudos of winning and might stop people entering the wrong "type" of horse just for the money. I'd like to get back to the mix of horses it used to have, with some lower rated, slower ones hoping to plug on round for a minor place, so they're more spread out and not so evenly matched. Also perhaps water more, again to slow it down a little. It shouldn't be about beating the course record, tactics should play a part. This years oh so close finish was said to be one of the best, but for me, watching Red catching the fabulous Crisp (a great big proper chaser) in 1973 was better and 1977 when he did the hat trick winning by 25 lengths, the best of all, as you knew it would never be repeated.
I've always been a fan of the GN, since going to Aintree as a pony mad 9 year old in 1967 and falling in love with a handsome bay horse who dead heated in a flat race - that horse was Red Rum. By some strange coincidence I used to go to school in Southport in a taxi driven by one Ginger McCain.
I've watched the race every year since then, cheered the wonderful Red Rum on to all his victories and breathed a sigh of relief when he was withdrawn on the eve of the 1978 race and retired. I had other favourites - The Pilgarlic, who always plugged on round safely, getting into minor placings, Greasepaint, Hedgehunter etc.
As other people have said, the NH horses back then were a totally different build from today.
I don't think modifying the GN course will make any difference - horses are breaking down, suffering fractures and having fatal falls at racecourses all over the country, and not just when jumping.
This problem isn't just restricted to racing, either, although the speed of racing exacerbates the problem.
Showjumping, now with it's ultra light poles and shallow cups, requires lighter, ultra careful horses. Top horses don't seem to be around as long, often retiring relatively early with problems such as suspensory ligaments. I remember John Whitaker winning the Hickstead Derby on the 21 year old Gammon. I'm not so into Eventing, but can also remember Lucinda Green winning Badminton, Burghley and the Europeans on George, who was really a hunter! I doubt either of these feats would be repeated nowadays.
A few years back there was a real welfare issue with the breed standards in
dogs - They were being bred for a certain look, to the detriment of their welfare. It seems to me we could be heading the same way with top competition horses. Ordinary all round horses (I guess the equivalent of mixed breed dogs!) are living & staying in work longer now, whereas competition horses seem to have gone the other way. I can't remember the last time I saw a horse advertised with "10 ins of bone" - but do see lots of ads with pictures of foals loose jumping.
Back to the GN - I certainly wouldn't want the fences reducing further. They never should have pandered to the RSPCA in the first place. I'm with the
trainer of According to Pete, who says make the fences bigger again. I'd also reduce the prize money, so it's more about the kudos of winning and might stop people entering the wrong "type" of horse just for the money. I'd like to get back to the mix of horses it used to have, with some lower rated, slower ones hoping to plug on round for a minor place, so they're more spread out and not so evenly matched. Also perhaps water more, again to slow it down a little. It shouldn't be about beating the course record, tactics should play a part. This years oh so close finish was said to be one of the best, but for me, watching Red catching the fabulous Crisp (a great big proper chaser) in 1973 was better and 1977 when he did the hat trick winning by 25 lengths, the best of all, as you knew it would never be repeated.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
So, we've criticised the course design, and it's quite beyond me how anyone in their right minds would ever give any credence to the opinions of the RSPCA, on equine matters, we've discussed the type of horse which now seems fashionable, but I wonder if anyone feels that the jockeys were responsible, in any way.
I spoke yesterday with a race course official, a highly knowledgable and experienced man, who lays the responsibility for the frantic and often chaotic starts squarely at the door of the riders, not the starter, as so often seems to happen.
The starts in Formula 1 seem to be a little more restrained (and successful), these days, so is it time for the riders in the GN to accept that they may be of some influence?
Alec.
I spoke yesterday with a race course official, a highly knowledgable and experienced man, who lays the responsibility for the frantic and often chaotic starts squarely at the door of the riders, not the starter, as so often seems to happen.
The starts in Formula 1 seem to be a little more restrained (and successful), these days, so is it time for the riders in the GN to accept that they may be of some influence?
Alec.
scarymare
Well-Known Member
Sorry I haven't read all the posts. IMO the starter was a muppet and the jockeys rode far too fast. The fences, in a very worthy effort to make them safer allow this as much smaller. I'm not sure how to fix it, cutting to 30 may help but I doubt it. One thing is for sure though, if this horse death carries on then Joe Public will put a stop to it. Personally I accept the fact that with any risk sport there will be horse injuries (which often lead to PTS even at my level).
Wagtail
Horse servant
Hopefully this thread will make it to the most talked about in H&H this week. There are some really considered and knowledgable posts on this thread from both sides, and for once, no nastiness. Just a constructive and hopefully fruitful discussion.
PercyMum
Well-Known Member
I don't know much about racing at all and I have found this thread very infomative so thank you all. Just such a very sad shame that it had to come about from such tragedy.
I was particularly interested about the breeding comments. In my idiocy I thought a TB was a TB and had always wondered how some of these little things would be able to get round the GN. I now am un-confused! Coincidentally, I have just taken on the daintiest wee TB I ever saw! She is flatbred and a very very fine 16.1hh. Apparently her old owners were thinking about making her NH because although she isnt massively quick, she has a fantastic jump and is a 'stayer'. Luckily her trainer is said no! When I read those comments I rushed up the yard and gave her a big hug and am very relieved she will just have a rather more sedate life as a Dressage/SJ-er!!!
I was particularly interested about the breeding comments. In my idiocy I thought a TB was a TB and had always wondered how some of these little things would be able to get round the GN. I now am un-confused! Coincidentally, I have just taken on the daintiest wee TB I ever saw! She is flatbred and a very very fine 16.1hh. Apparently her old owners were thinking about making her NH because although she isnt massively quick, she has a fantastic jump and is a 'stayer'. Luckily her trainer is said no! When I read those comments I rushed up the yard and gave her a big hug and am very relieved she will just have a rather more sedate life as a Dressage/SJ-er!!!
Elf On A Shelf
...
I agree Alec. The jockeys are partly to blame for eveything gong skewiff. There is no need to be faffing around so much at the start, there is no need to go haring into the first, no need to be in such a tigtly packed group et al.
BUT
The jockeys are under a lot of pressure. The start of the National is always controversial and all they want to do is get away quickly and smartly. There is a vast amount of pressure getting the start right which is totally ridiculous considering the race is 4.5miles. To ease this I would suggest a flag start where so long as all the horses are facing in the right direction and are no more than 7-8lenghts from front to back then I would let them go. But then if your horse doesn't get off to the best start the jockeys will get a rollicking from the owner and/or trainer. It's a no win situation for them.
The frantic pace to the first is usually due to nerves and to everyone wanting to get into a good position relatively near to where their trainers instructed them to be. Again if that doesn't happen a rollicking will ensue.
As for the tightly packed groups - the way the handicap works is so that in theory every horse should cross the line at the same time. They reckon for every pound of weight it is worth a length on the racecourse. The horses are too evenly matched but with only having the higher rated, proven horses you are getting the ones most likley to get round. No one these days seems to believe that you can win the National from either the outside or from 5-10lengths off the pace where you can steer your mount safely around downed horses and jockeys. Also again they have to be where the owner and trainer want them to be to avoid a rollicking.
There is far too much pressure on these jockeys to be where the owner and trainer want them to be and that results in a tin of sardines. The trouble is is that if an owner or trainer disagrees with the ride a jokey gave the horse then they can go into the stewards room, say the jockey failed to carry out their instructions and then potentially get them banned from riding for a few days.
Back in days gone by jockeys, owners and trainers were happy for their horses to hunt round at the back of the field, stay up and pick off any that couldn't keep the pace to pick up some placed prize money. These days it's all too gloried about winning. It doesn't happen now due to too much pressure from every camp and it's a shame as it is ruining the race.
I do wonder what would happen if you took away all of the prize money and the only thing to play for is the glory of winning the National. Would owners, trainers and jockey's be much more relaxed and the race strung out, realise when they are beaten and things don't work out and thus just canter home merrily. There is just too much pressure on the whole thing these days. TV crews in yards filming the favourites - that's a total pain in the backside in itself! Jockeys being interviewed, owners being interviewed, 70,000 people at the track itself to watch the race and then the goodness knows how many million watching on tv. The public, especially with a few drinks in them at the races, don't take kindly to their bet being beaten or failing to complete and the jockeys get some amount of booing as they come in. That's not right. The whole thing is now like a boiling kettle that has nowhere to let the steam out until the tape goes up and the race commences.
As to the comment about riding in normal saddles and longer stirrups - it's actually much, much easier to jump at speed in race saddles as your legs aren't forced into position. They allow you complete freedom of movement and so are better able to deal with short strides, long strides, wonky jumps etc as you don't have a cantle smacking you on the back side at every fence or indeed in every stride of the race. Most of the jocks, if not all of them, do indeed drop their stirrups a couple of holes for the National - ride long live long.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
I totally agree with this. While I don't expect much credence being given carte blanche by those in charge to everything that's been said on here, perhaps it's enough to give them some food for thought for how some other horse people are thinking.
The last few posts have been exceptionally good especially Zerotolerance, Mike and EKW.
Mithras
Well-Known Member
I remember I used to ride out a horse called Man on the Run when I worked in racing during the uni holidays which was ante-post favourite for the Grand National. He must have been about 17.2, built more like an Irish Draft and actually had a little bit of feather on his fetlocks. Massive horse but very well balanced. I didn't measure his bone but I'm sure he would have made an excellent middleweight hunter.
The problem in racing is that these types take a long time to mature and don't bring in the money for breeders and pinhookers that sprint and miler bred flat types do. Hence everything seems to be getting crossed with a sprint or miler bred sire from Danzig/Fairy King/Storm Cat lines to introduce some speed and some black type to up the price at the sales.
Not unnaturally, some of these filter through to NH racing. If you think of the tragic Synchronised's breeding, he is inbred to Hail To Reason and while there is some flat stamina in there (maternal great grandsire Derby winner Roberto), its definatley not a typical NH pedigree providing a lot of bone. But Syncronished won the Welsh and Scottish Grand Nationals, so did have stamina. If you see many of the 4 mile plus chases on tv now, there only seems to be a couple of horses who actually finished without being out on their legs. Even in flat racing, the Cup races are no longer fashionable and considered almost a detriment to a horse's breeding career.
Its the way racing is going. Perhaps we need to see some incentives from the breeding and racing industry to promote NH type store horses and stayers. I honestly find watching a good Cup race more interesting than a 5 furlong sprint!
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
I agree with both of you, I, as others, have asked questions and been given well argued responses, for which I'm grateful. If you don't ask, you don't learn.
I'll watch with interest The Morning Line, on Saturday. Francombe tends to speak his mind, and seems to fear no one. I wonder if they'll let him loose?
I for one would welcome his contribution. Is he on Twitter? Could he be steered towards this debate? Probably not! Alec.
Wagtail
Horse servant
This may be a stupid suggestion, but with all this talk about the way NH horses used to be built, more bone etc. Could there be a minimum amount of bone permitted for horses to qualify for races such as the National? I actually have a 16.1hh flatbred ex racer that has 9 inches of bone, (more than two of the warmbloods on the yard). He is a really big solid type. Unfortunately totally knackered though!
Mithras
Well-Known Member
I rather like this idea. In fact, I'd extend it to all steeplechases (not hurdles). Of course bone measurement isn't a pre-cursor for stamina or toughness on its own, but such a requirement would along the way, encourage breeding of the right type of horse. I think its an excellent idea (though sadly probably too visionary to be adopted).
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, "bone" is no guarantee of just how tough a horse is, though it may be an indication. The other point is, just how would you quantify the amount of bone available between 2 horses, one of 15.2 and one a full hand and a half taller?
A nice idea, but I can't see it working, to be honest. It'd be good if it did, though!
Alec.
A nice idea, but I can't see it working, to be honest. It'd be good if it did, though!
Alec.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I would be very interested to find out if there is any sort of correlation between those horses that sustain fractures racing and the amount of bone they have or how they are bred. It would be a useful study, I think.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Unfortunately, "bone" is no guarantee of just how tough a horse is, though it may be an indication. The other point is, just how would you quantify the amount of bone available between 2 horses, one of 15.2 and one a full hand and a half taller?
A nice idea, but I can't see it working, to be honest. It'd be good if it did, though!
Alec.
True. You would have to devise a formula of some sort relating to how much bone as a percentage of the horse's racing weight. Probably far too complicated.
Littlelegs
Well-Known Member
I've had little to do with racing, not because I don't like it but just cos my interests are elsewhere. However even I've noticed the breeding differences with ex race horses. In my teens mid 90's I used to hack an ex national horse who was 17.2 & did well in hunter classes, despite being pure tb. Even without being remotely knowledgeable about tbs, in my teens there was always a huge distinction between a nh horse & a flat one.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
The fences years ago were much scarier, fences were trappier. Just because they are made of fir branches rather than made of birch [as in conventional fences] does not make them as difficult as they were years ago, or more difficult, horses can be schooled over birch fences or fir fences at home, if they don't school well over national type fences at home they are usually not run in the National.
With respect to birch fences, some courses are known to have "stiff" fences, and some are easier, so allow horses to make more mistakes without falling. Therefore trainers with "dodgy " jumpers will select easier courses for their horses.
The trappiest GN fences have been made less trappy, reducing "drops" on the landing side, and making "up slopes" on the landing side less severe, dry ditches are not deep [old pictures show jockeys standing up in them, water is a shallow ditch, intended not to trap any horse. The fences are steadily being made easier for the horse to take off in the right place by front boards, and also most are lower, year on year.
This has not helped to reduce casualties, more horses are running at top fitness, they are better horses [higher handicaps], and will therefore be travelling faster, because they are capable of galloping for four miles at a higher speed than twenty years ago when interval training was the exception rather than the rule, and training was more of an art than the science it is today.
Red Rum won his races in the 1970's, he had a daily outing on Southport Sands, and was trained from stables behind a garage, well this proved to be a winning formula, but Ginger's son has his own training licence, and his horses are now trained on conventional gallops, things have moved on.......................
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
There has been a lot of work done on bone modelling on racehorses, where it is evident that the exercise/training regime has a profound effect on bone density [one strength measurement] also feeding , early life style, dams conformation etc etc, really one has to judge a horse as it stands, there are a few good horses with poor conformation, but any bloodstock agent would soon be out of business if he consistently bought horses with poor conformation.
Lady Rebecca was a super little mare on performance, but to be honest her sales price of £800 guineas reflected her looks, she was small, a box walker, and did not have a lot of bone, the bloodstock agent took a punt, and it paid off, but how many owners asked him to go out and buy a box walking mare for 800gns, not many, thank goodness!
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Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
LOL, team chasers are amateurs, they are not riding at the speed of professional jockeys, who ride fit horses every day of the week, not those selected as "good amateur rides"
Believe me these lads are really fit, a few ride with longer stirrups than others, but the modern trend is to use balance to stay on board, and to be fit enough to assist the horse when he starts to flag.
There are only a few riders able to ride at the top level, they have to be capable [ie exceptional] and intelligent [that may surprise you], capable of reading a race and riding accordingly, able to communicate with the connections, and take the flak when things go wrong.
I used to lead up quite a few horses, thank goodness they all came home, but at no time was I in doubt as to the ability of the rider. The jockey has to look after the horse, otherwise he will be taking the ambulance home, then signing on at the jobcentre.
A few horses require the assistance of a jockey when he pecks on landing, but usually it is imperative that the jockey stays in balance while the horse sorts his legs out.
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Cumulonimbus
New User
Going back a year, was there ever any explanation for Dooney's Gate's fall? He seemed to just plough into the fence? He finished 4th in the Topham Chase the year before so inability to jump Becher's Brook* couldnt have been the problem and from what i remember he had a good sight of the fence.
When i saw that fall i thought that we were all lucky that none of the others involved in the ensuing pile-up ended up dying as well. Did hope back then that the number of horses running and consequent potential for a pile-up might have attracted the attention of the authorities but sadly not. ATP must have been brought down in pretty much the same spot (and that was with much fewer horses left).
*well it was in this case but you know what i mean
When i saw that fall i thought that we were all lucky that none of the others involved in the ensuing pile-up ended up dying as well. Did hope back then that the number of horses running and consequent potential for a pile-up might have attracted the attention of the authorities but sadly not. ATP must have been brought down in pretty much the same spot (and that was with much fewer horses left).
*well it was in this case but you know what i mean
Honeylight
Well-Known Member
I really agree with you.
Back in the late 1940s people were writing about the danger commercialism was having on racehorse breeding, & back then there were other bloodlines to breed out to; now myriads of Northern Dancer, Native Dancer & Mr Prospector & little else. Native Dancer wasn't completely sound & Northern Dancer throws a lot of white legged, washy bays.
Perhaps a financial incentive for using (what minuscule) stallions from other lines might be a solution. What about an incentive to breed some proper sound jumpers? With a stallion soundness & bone scheme like the old HIS scheme, which now has more Germanic warmbloods than the proper solid thoroughbred stallions it used to promote of old.
Honeylight
Well-Known Member
Posted some links to some HIS stallions from 1960s/70s
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=kadir+Cup&x=29&y=12
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=quality+Fair&x=22&y=10
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=hoarwithy&x=19&y=8
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=flying+curtis&x=21&y=11
& some Grand National Winners
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?sh...a.com/d?showpic=10579056&nm=2&time=1313942350
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10170357&time=1312706998
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10556729&nm=3&time=1312708399
A lot more substance all round!
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=kadir+Cup&x=29&y=12
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=quality+Fair&x=22&y=10
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=hoarwithy&x=19&y=8
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=flying+curtis&x=21&y=11
& some Grand National Winners
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?sh...a.com/d?showpic=10579056&nm=2&time=1313942350
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10170357&time=1312706998
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10556729&nm=3&time=1312708399
A lot more substance all round!
Natch
Well-Known Member
My thoughts wander this way too. It wouldn't prevent falls, but it might indicate less broken legs.
Yes, and to include nutrition and training too.
My radical idea that won't get adopted is to turn it into "lanes," like human races but with rails so that the horses cannot cross lanes, and loose horses are kept out of the way. Would have to somehow make sure they all travelled the same distance (alter the course to be a figure of 8..?) and there would either need to be only say 10 runners or for it to be run in heats. result = 0% falls for any reason outside of the horse & jockey's individual control, but of course less drama for the punters to watch. Still, it would give the bookies more opportunities for people to bet and perhaps even boost revenue (£5 each way for the horse to be placed in its heat, then another £5 for it to be placed overall).... just musings.