Grand National 2012- Carnage! What did everyone think?

[Tnavas]

Finally got to see the race via a facebook link and to be honest it wasn't the carnage I had been expecting!

This is the ultimate race! It is there to test the horses ability to jump, its courage and stamina. That it does well. More horses finished than I've seen in a long time which to me means that the horses were up to the course.

I would far rather see horses jump a lower fence than horses refusing, as the refusers often take out other horses immediately beside and behind them.

Horses fall in eventing, showjumping and hunting, it is one of the hazards of jumping at any level. Get the stride wrong and a fall may be a consequence.

I think though that the field definately needs to be reduced in number so that horses aren't compacted in tight groups over the same part of the fence.

http://www.grand-national.net/history.htm

 

[Dab]

Not sure who set it up.It was posted on FB

Looks like it was 'set-up' in 2007? Not really sure if it is just having a 'pop' at racing or calling for a ban of the National. It doesn't make any specific points regarding the National.

 

[ribbons]

If you actually read the petition, especially paragraph headed raced to death, it looks like it's been written by a child, or reminds me of scam emails answering ads that are obviously written by someone who's first language is not English. It's not a petition I would take seriously even if I agreed with it's subject. (which I don't)

 

[Holly Hocks]

I'm still at a loss as to why there has been such an outcry over one race. It's extremely sad that two superb horses were lost, but if people want it banned as they think it is animal cruelty - and by this they mean that it is cruel because horses have died, then yes, there is a comparison to farming. If you think animals dying is cruel, then please ensure you are vegan (vegetarian simply isn't enough - milk production isn't like the TV adverts).

Strangely I don't want to see the GN banned - but I am vegetarian - not because I don't want the animals killed, but because I have seen first hand how these farm animals are kept and I simply don't agree with what I've seen. I don't have a problem with the animals being used for meat, but I do have a problem with the way they live their lives beforehand. I bet that all the animals in yesterdays GN had lived or are still living superbly luxurious lives.

As I said on the other thread, the other equestrian sports have a lot to answer for - only the other day I was talking to someone who's friend had bought a £40k dressage horse as a foal - it was dead by the time it was five - too much too young - totally knackered. But these figures aren't made public.
And I've seen such violent abuse at my local riding club by a pony club instructor that I wished I'd filmed it and shamed her on this forum...

 

[rockysmum]

I personally dont understand the comments about other types of cruelty.

Surely two wrongs dont make a right. If something is cruel, its cruel, regardless of whether there are worse things going on in the world. Should people only take action on the worst cases and leave the rest?

 

[Holly Hocks]

Not at all - that's my point - if someone is going to complain that the death of horses is cruel, then they should take a look at themselves and realise that what they've eaten for their Sunday dinner has also suffered the same fate. I find it hypocritical that's all.
And there are also endless posters on here who always quote that same phrase "there's fates worse than death", yet find these deaths unacceptable.

 

[lannerch]

Just read on compitition forum sharon hunt sadly had to have her horse cavalier Bertie put down on course at Weston today due to a fracture ( rip Bertie and my condolences to piir Sharon)
But now should we not be discussing banning eventing

 

[millikins]

I do wish people would stop saying lower the fences to make it safer. Lowering the fences is, along with increasing the prize money exactly what has made it UNsafe. More modifications with lowering of fences will just make that worse, unless you basically remove everything that makes the GN different than other races, and if you do that, it aint the Grand National

Trying to appease the animals rights people and trying to make it a 'top class' race with high minimum ratings is the road to ruin.

The race should be run a bit earlier so noone is tempted to have a crack at it after Cheltenham and the ground has more chance of being softer, over bigger fences to make the horses slow down and respect them, and with less prize money to deter the greedy contingent. That way, it will be contested by the Ballabriggs of this world and not the general stamp of chaser, however top class. For me that would result in fewer falls.

The thing that is really telling about this years race is there were hardly any refusals apart from Vic Venturi and to me that is a warning sign, it is saying the fences are not clearly big enough for horses to make a decision about whether or not they fancy them, and are also approaching too fast to be able to put any decision about putting on the brakes.

I would also like to see the bypass fence gaps move reversed as I think it is causing more fatalities in the loose horses (eg Synchronised and another a couple of years back) than it is saving in the prevention of horses being 'taken out'.

The only 'softening' change I would support would be the reduction in numbers to 30, to give a better chance of seeing some space at the fence.

Agree with this. Slightly off topic, on another thread which now I can't find, the RSPCA predictably said it was "totally unacceptable" (re the deaths) and that they thought the placings should be reversed due to whip abuse. Does anyone know if the winner earned a whip ban, (nothing in DT) or are the RSPCA perhaps trying to deflect attention from their signal failure to make the race "safer" ?

 

[vikkibeth]

I dislike this race as there are far too many runners and riders and there are far too many deaths, needless deaths for my liking.

I would never put my horses into a race/competition where i knew that there was a very strong chance they would be killed. Thats because i love my horses, some may argue as pets, but these racehorses are business and seen as business commodities. There probably is a fondness, maybe love from the stablehand and a fondness from the trainer, but not a true 'love'.

Thats my opinion, yes there are deaths in many other equine sports, even in field, but to knowingly put your animal in that position is an entirely different matter.

The GN divides people, some love it, some hate it, some want it banned, some want it to remain a british treasure.

What I want is peace for these beautiful animals that have lost their lives fulfilling their masters desire. I hope and pray that something is done with the race so that no more fatalities occur, i fear next time it maybe a jockey who loses his life.

RIP Beautiful ones xx

Said perfectly! With a huge genuine sadness RIP.

 

[touchstone]

Not at all - that's my point - if someone is going to complain that the death of horses is cruel, then they should take a look at themselves and realise that what they've eaten for their Sunday dinner has also suffered the same fate. I find it hypocritical that's all.
And there are also endless posters on here who always quote that same phrase "there's fates worse than death", yet find these deaths unacceptable.

I think that people find unnecessary deaths unacceptable; does it mean that someone should not be allowed an opinion because they eat meat? I eat beef but don't agree with bullfighting and I know what kind of life the animal has had beforehand with the meat I eat.

Apparently the owners of Pete are devastated and have said they wish they had never run him and will never run a horse in it again.

For me I found the number of fallers worrying, I think we are lucky that only two horses died.

 

[Wagtail]

Just read on compitition forum sharon hunt sadly had to have her horse cavalier Bertie put down on course at Weston today due to a fracture ( rip Bertie and my condolences to piir Sharon)
But now should we not be discussing banning eventing

Of course not. How many horses per hundred lose their lives when eventing? Is it more like one in a thousand? In the GN it is around 4 in a hundred. It is approaching one in 20! If one in 20 eventing horses died every time there was an event then of course we would start to think about banning it. As it is, I don't think the statistics are much greater than horses out in the field. Over the years I have competed show jumping dressage and hunter trials. I have only once had an injury sustained by my horse and that was because she stood on her reins when I wasn't paying attention whilst I was watching another competitor. However, over the years, 3 of my horses have sustained injuries in the field that resulted in two being PTS and one being retired early. Now I no longer turnout in the fields in muddy conditions. They stay in the all weather.

 

[aimsymc]

I realise im joining this post a bit late....... But here goes, I love national hunt racing and enjoy following the horses and having the occasional bet. I always put a bet (or 2) on the national and done the same this year and put money on neptune collonges (sp) and according to pete. I always get a buzz from watchin it win or lose.

TBH after watching it this year I felt sick! Was totally gutted about horse deaths and actually had a bubble to myself after. I usually always defend the GN and am not calling for it to be barred, just feel there is to many runners, as already been said according to pete was brought down. Maybe this wouldnt change anything im no expert. Just not to sure how I feel about it anymore.

I know that theese horses are very well cared for and loved and dont think for a minute that the owners/trainers/grooms think "its just a horse".
sorry going on a bit now!!

 

[aimsymc]

Just to be controversial..... Im not sure th rspca would be getting as involved if it hadnt been such a high profile horse that was pts!! *Ducking from missiles*

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

The rspca dont have a bloody clue! They pander to the bunny huggers and dont seek advice from people who have a clue.

 

[Orangehorse]

I am with Jesstickle on this one. Cattle are bred to be eaten, racehorses are bred to race, that is their job and they get a lot of care and attention to make sure that they do the job. Racing is an industry that puts a lot of money into the horse world as a whole and the horse is its raw material.

Of course I was sad that the horses died, I would much prefer to see them all come home safely and I bet the racecourse authorities were horrified, after all their attempts of appeasement. The qualifying conditions have been increased, the jockey's qualifications have been increased, yet still those horses loose their life.

But any horse galloping as fast as it can and jumping fences at speed is in the "at risk" situation. One reason I don't like point to points much is the high level of falls - but it is not on TV.

As for other horse sports - I remember having a similar conversation about eventing, as the attrition rate is huge. If you take the entries from a typical one day event, how many never carry on due to injury sustained in training or competition? But it isn't public, so no-one gets het up about it. There also seem to be an awful lot of dressage horses that retire through injury. Drag hunting used to have the same insurance rating as racing.

I wish people so upset about the deaths of two racehorses would put their energies into protesting against an awful lot of worse horse abuse around the world and in this country - starting with live horse transport for slaughter across Europe.

 

[Wagtail]

Orangehorse, do you think one in twenty horses dying is an acceptable level for one race?

Why does the fact that there is all sorts of cruelty going on against horses have anything to do with the Grand National?

 

[Flame_]

Orangehorse, do you think one in twenty horses dying is an acceptable level for one race?

Why does the fact that there is all sorts of cruelty going on against horses have anything to do with the Grand National?

The comparison of the GN against eventing across the board isn't quite fair. Yes compare racing against eventing stats but its only really fair to compare the GN on its own, the ultimate racing test, against, say Badminton on its own, or maybe Express Eventing which did its own good share of horse damage.

It has to do with it because it puts in perspective the death of two racehorses against the death of shedloads of other horses IYSWIM. I'd go so far as to say most horses die before their time because we use them, so it just seems random to get so upset about two that just happen to have been on the tele.

 

[Natch]

Dear the Indignant and Ill-informed of the world,

(yes, that includes a worryingly high number of contributors to this thread)

1) there is an outcry over the Grand National because it is in the public eye - people KNOW about it. People don't necessarily know about the welfare concerns in other races, eventing, dressage, farm animals etc.

2) I don't think its helpful to say things like "you need to be vegan before you can comment"... it has no logical basis to claim that people are not allowed an opinion on the GN because they eat meat... few things in life are that black and white, and this isn't one of them.

3) The deaths in the GN are tragic because they are without a purpose, traumatic, and benefit nobody. I do not think that the death of a horse as a result of having been put through an enormously huge physical challenge can be compared with an animal dying in a humane manner at an abbatoir.

4) To the people who say these horses live luxurious lives and want for nothing when at home... have you been to the thoroughbred rehabilitation centres? Have you seen the horses who have broken down through training, because they were bred for speed above all else, because few people involved in breeding them really care if the horse stays sound after the age of 3, 5, 10...? Have you seen the horses who simply cannot cope with being turned out to grass because they've never known it, likewise can't have companions, or have you read the papers regarding the high % incidence of stereotypical behaviours and ulcers in racehorses? This "cushy, perfect" life the racehorses are given, where exactly is it? Because all I see is horses kept to high human standards.

5) The RSPCA would be involved if the deaths hadn't been of such high profile horses, (because they are every year, and many animal welfare groups oppose racing in general for the same principals) and they DO work with knowledgeable authorities on the subject of racing (e.g. the amendment of legislation regarding the use of whips, which I would argue is now more ambiguous than before because the BHA are trying to please the bunny huggers rather than stick purely to fact).

Yours,

Disgruntled of disgruntledom.

 

[BeckyD]

So what do you think about going to cross country events if they had the same fatality stats, and whether they should still be run?

This is an easy/glib question to ask, without regard for how it can actually be answered.

I'd like to try to answer, as I can see where Jesstickle is coming from and I share some of her views.

The difference for me, is something that Jesstickle has already alluded to. GN horses are bred for this purpose. They are kept as kings (in many cases) for this very purpose. They exist to run in races. They have been bred/trained by people who are not blind to the risks that these horses take, and the jockeys are also well aware.

Most horses who do XC/hunter trials/dressage do so for our (relatively low-risk) enjoyment. We do not have the history of that many horses dying doing XC or dressage. We cannot extrapolate it because in our minds, the two things do not co-exist. I imagine that if that many horses did die doing XC or dressage etc, it would be a very different selection of horses that did it and different people. I for one wouldn't entertain competing (myself or my horse) in such a dangerous sport.

I'm a big softy and I worship my horse, but not all people feel the same as I do. I have to say that this is the first year for me where I found the GN very very difficult to watch and I *probably* won't watch it next year. I have always loved the challenge, the spectacle and the drama of it all, but I find that I can't cope with watching so many horses fall, any more. I don't wish to ban it.

I just hope that every step possible can be taken to mitigate the risks to horse and human who take part.

 

[Alec Swan]

I've followed this with considerable interest. On the one hand we have those who would argue that "It's only a horse", and on the other, those who hate racing, period. There also seems to be a middle road group, which I suspect holds the greatest number, and who I'd join.

Let's consider the facts, again;

The Grand National used to have a maximum of 64 starters, but because of the number of fatal falls, that was cut to 40 starters. In the view of many, that's still too many.

New safety measures have been put in place, but it seems to me having listened to the arguments of many, on here, that the situation has actually worsened.

Racing, particularly NH cannot continue, taking a careless approach to animal welfare, and that's what's actually under discussion. A poster, someway back said that they thought that 15 finishers out of 40 was quite a good result. Few, I suspect, would agree with that.

There's also some validity in the argument that for Eventing, if 2 horses out of every 40, who ran at Burghley or Badminton, lost its life, then something would be said. There'd be uproar. Racing and Eventing are two separate disciplines, I accept, but when both are run at the pinnacle of excellence, and one provides a disproportionate number of fatalities, then the world is entitled to ask questions, I feel.

On the other side of the argument, it has to be understood that owners, trainers, and jockeys, accept the risks, and do their best to mitigate the risks of death or injury to either horse or rider, and their views should be considered.

If I owned a Gold Cup winner, it certainly wouldn't have been put at such risk, unless of course, it was just a matter of money, with little thought for the animal itself. My heart goes out to the owners of A_t_P. They are, so I understand, devastated.

I'm a stout and determined fan of NH racing, but there are occasions when I find that we really do need to be looking at the way that some races are run. In short, we need to get our act together, before "authority" takes the options away from us.

Alec.

 

[amandap]

but there are occasions when I find that we really do need to be looking at the way that some races are run. In short, we need to get our act together, before "authority" takes the options away from us.

Good post Alec and I, especially, 100% agree with this.

I also strongly agree with Naturally's point about racers being "kept like kings" with lovely fluffy beds etc! This really grates on me personally because it is a human concept and has nothing whatsoever to do with the true needs of horses. The horses are shouting for change with ulcers, cribbing, broken bodies and minds etc. Yes there are some who survive apparently intact but far too many don't and the wastage of non performers is also something that needs addressing urgently imo.

 

[biddy600]

Well! it really took the Grand out of "Grand National". The start was a complete farce and embarrasment and the deaths of two horses a disaster.

It is an achievement for a horse to finish the National but so many starters only make it more dangerous. Reduce the number to a maximum of 20 of the best chasers. Make qualifying for the National an event in itself.

The fact that these horses will then gallop 4.5 miles over 30 fences is what makes it a test of great stamina and skill but we DON'T want this to be life-threatening. This sort of tragedy is not acceptable. Years ago formula 1 drivers lost their lives racing but not anymore. Perhaps horse racing authorities should look at what was done on the motor racing world to make it safer.

 

[tristar]

syncronised was a horse who has proved himself and had as good a chance as any of getting round the national, sadly he is no more, i've often been unexcited by the actual winner of this race because it seems to me that if you are unlucky and get brought down there's nothing you can do to avoid it, as in sycronised's case, therefore it is not a true and fair race merely a barbaric spectacle in which the actual best horse does not very often win.

 

[amandap]

Aintree have set up a complaints line via facebook. Directlink to the cl. http://www.aintree.co.uk/forms/contact/?d=10

 

[Maesfen]

New safety measures have been put in place, but it seems to me having listened to the arguments of many, on here, that the situation has actually worsened.

There's also some validity in the argument that for Eventing, if 2 horses out of every 40, who ran at Burghley or Badminton, lost its life, then something would be said. There'd be uproar. Racing and Eventing are two separate disciplines, I accept, but when both are run at the pinnacle of excellence, and one provides a disproportionate number of fatalities, then the world is entitled to ask questions, I feel.

Many of those safety measures were insisted upon by the RSPCA. Now we know they have always been against the race but is this their back handed way of doing it? Horses jumped the previous larger courses so much better, in a better rhythm and not as fast; all the making smaller fences has compounded the problem, not helped one little bit.
Sorry keep adding to this! Did you notice how many loose horses continued this year, far more than normal as usually a lot, once fallen pull themselves up having had enough enabling them to be caught by course staff; this didn't happen this year, they hardly caught any.

Yes, there would be validity if that happened in eventing because those horses go around one at a time supposedly with an experienced rider who is meant to have walked the course and noted what they think would be the troublesome fences; they are against the course designer, nobody else, they do not have to look out for other riders or being brought down by loose horses so I think that's a pretty poor comparison myself.

 

[kp31]

Well! it really took the Grand out of "Grand National". The start was a complete farce and embarrasment and the deaths of two horses a disaster.

It is an achievement for a horse to finish the National but so many starters only make it more dangerous. Reduce the number to a maximum of 20 of the best chasers. Make qualifying for the National an event in itself.

The fact that these horses will then gallop 4.5 miles over 30 fences is what makes it a test of great stamina and skill but we DON'T want this to be life-threatening. This sort of tragedy is not acceptable. Years ago formula 1 drivers lost their lives racing but not anymore. Perhaps horse racing authorities should look at what was done on the motor racing world to make it safer.

Have to agree with all this and is what i have been saying since this awful event on Saturday, that i am so glad i did not watch.

I haven't read the whole thread just snippets. Having just had the same conversation at work with a non horsey person, he perfectly understood where i was coming from. I explained that not all these horses lived like kings only the top few and the sheer wastage in racing is just massive. He was very shocked and even he said they needed to be fewer runners and that with them reducing the height of the fences the horses seemed to gain more speed incurring more injury.

Saturday was a very sad day for racing and the equine world.

 

[marmalade76]

A long time ago when the National had huge fences, before all the modifications, the horses that ran in the race were National Hunt horses, they were more like middle weights. We had NH stallions to put on our substantial mares, not many "dual pupose" stallions about then, some could have up to 9ins of bone. They were not speed machines they had staminer and the differance between chaser and flat horse was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes. The course was a fair test, the pace was slower and they hacked into the fences got into the bottom of them and jumped. Sadly we have now a Park type course with 40 runners all going flat out. I dont think we will see less carnage all the time we have horses racing in the GN that are flat bred.

Great post, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the grestest National horse ever flat bred??

I do agree, Suny Bay in particular (although he was not a GN winner), sticks in my mind as looking like a proper hunter.

 

[Double_choc_lab]

For those who have questioned the fact that speed seems to of been the major factor and the ground was "good" the older GNs were held earlier in the year when there was more chance of softer or deeper going thus slowing everyone down. The National of 1959 was held on 21st March not mid April. How do I know - I was born as the race was run.

Mick Fitz also made a good point - since the levelling of the landing at Beechers everyone now goes for the inside which is the shorter route. Previously if you spread out the drop was less so only the brave favoured the inside.

WHW very good on the BBC this morning no kneejerk reaction, they said we need time to review and analyse.

 

[fburton]

I'm sick of people slating racing while their horse stands in it's box suffering from laminitis caused it's well meaning owner's ignorance.

Do you have anyone particular in mind? How many of the people posting here would come into that category, do you think?

Excellent post by Alec btw.

 

[Dab]

Did you notice how many loose horses continued this year, far more than normal as usually a lot, once fallen pull themselves up having had enough enabling them to be caught by course staff; this didn't happen this year, they hardly caught any.

Very interesting, and it would be good to see the stats on that one. What is also interesting, is that they were supposed to have narrowed some of the fences to allow 'run-off' areas? If so thats not working!!!!! Just less jumping room and more chance of being bought down!!!

Bring back the 'old-fashion' breed chasers.