Grand National meeting.

reynold said:
His death is now the headline story on the Mail (which whatever you think of it is a very well viewed site).

Headline to the story is 'Raced to Death'

This is not good news for horse racing, particularly NH racing and specifically the GN.
Click to expand...

I was praying that this year would be the second year in a row of having no horses die running the Grand National.

The changes made appeared to have helped based on last years run, but I suppose it does not matter how safe the fences are, if horses are going to be ran past the point of what their bodies are safely capable of.
 
Eventing now has systems of pulling people up who are continuing when the horse is exhausted

F1 flags cars that are continuing when dangerous (e.g body work coming off) to make them pit

Do we need a similar system in racing where jockeys are forced to pull up if it looks like their chance is gone/after a particularly bad error that could have caused horse injury/when the horse is exhausted? Yes we've had a couple of races this season where someone who looks to have no chance has been tailed off then won so it would potentially prevent that, but then if only flagged based on the way the horse is looking/going it should potentially avoid them being flagged? If a jockey has to be stopped, then they get a ban/yellow card and have a system in place for totting up of offences like with the whip?

This is really not good for the optics, especially coupled with the fact he was 13.

Now it's faster (I think the lowering of the jumps has actually made it unsafe because it encourages them to go faster and flatter and take chances) plus April now seems to be hot and dry, should we consider an age limit? I personally don't like seeing these older horses still running, I know a lot do but personally not keen.

The jockey concerned has now bought the sport into disrepute, plus you then have the questions over risking him at that age, especially as its no longer a "plodding" race due to all the changes. It also takes away from those who did responsibly pull up

I'd agree with pp above who said this is probably worse than BB fall

I can only think of the following changes

- move when the race is run to mid season when the ground should be slower and weather cooler. Lets not forget the winner nearly keeled over the stewards did a great job keeping him moving and getting water to him

-age limit - 11?

-flag system to pull up horses which have made a mistake that could have caused injury/be struggling (use in all races this isn't exclusive to the GN)

-Raise the fences so they can't jump fast and flat
 
The idea that a horse was raced to death sickens me. I hope its reviewed deeply and something comes out of it. Jockey's should be the one looking out the for the horse in the moment and making the right decision for the horse.

I've no idea if this is true, but I did hear somewhere that trainers often run older horses in hope that they'll fall/die to ensure an insurance payout rather than have a worthless horse coming to the end of it's career. Which is horrific and I hope to god that it's not true. But who knows when money is involved.

I don't hate racing, and I don't think it's cruel but I do think there is so much surrounding the race itself that it unethical which must be scrutinized. The over-breeding, the ones that don't make the grade, the ones that come out unsound, the horses being started far too young, living in awful conditions (for horses) causing numerous psychological issues. Trainers are getting better and better, but it's still not good enough (same with any high-money stakes horse sport). The National does make national and sometimes international headlines which makes it a useful tool to dicuss horse racing ethics. So many non-horsey people ask me if I watch it and then what I think about racing in general, which gives me the chance to educate a little bit.

I agree with CCL about a flagging system, or even better an ear piece so that Jockey's can't say that they didn't think the flag was for them. There is so much money in racing, the sky is surely the limit when it comes to implementing safety features - fingers crossed the death of this horse causes such an uproar that they have to make changes.
 
ester said:
Definitely, my interpretation of flagging was probably a bit too literal!
Click to expand...

In motocross they literally put a board up with writing on it for the riders. You couldn’t argue it would be too expensive to implement stewards around points on the course with walkie talkie’s that could stick a board up with the number that needs to pull up.
 
I was going to ask if jockeys were routinely mic-ed, obviously some have hat cams, so it shouldn't be that much of an impediment. Only to be used for the purposes of being instructed to pull up, via either a pre-recorded voice or a buzzer or something, so it isn't so distracting and they can't say they didn't see if they were concentrating, which could be an issue with flags or signage.
 
We saw a prominent front runner take a horrible fall at a late fence and lie prone in full view on the live tv footage. He did survive, but he was left very, very sore.

The winner staggered and looked at the point of collapse as he pulled up after the post before they cut away. Did he go down?

Another horse is ridden to death.

This is sport?

Aintree now has fantastic covered post race cool down facilities, but you’ve got to be able to get the horses there in one piece after the race 👀.
 
Tiddlypom said:
We saw a prominent front runner take a horrible fall at a late fence and lie prone in full view on the live tv footage. He did survive, but he was left very, very sore.

The winner staggered and looked at the point of collapse as he pulled up after the post before they cut away. Did he go down?

Another horse is ridden to death.

This is sport?

Aintree now has fantastic covered post race cool down facilities, but you’ve got to be able to get the horses there in one piece after the race 👀.
Click to expand...
I only saw BBs fall live and had only switched on the fence before so may well be wrong but although his fall looked terrible (I thought he was dead on impact) he didn't look to be travelling badly so wouldn't say anyone was to blame for his fall. The winning jockey and the guy who's horse died afterwards certainly have a lot to answer for riding so hard on horses that had nothing left to give. Again just want to give a shout out to meetingofthewaters jockey for not pushing his horse when he was challenging the leading 2 but the horse stopped responding.
 
ester said:
I wondered whether they’d be able to change the numbers on a board quick enough, direct communication def seems like the better option
Click to expand...

Digital would be better but you'd need multiple screens/boards at different points and be reliant on the jockey looking for them at the exact moment of passing.
 
Tiddlypom said:
We saw a prominent front runner take a horrible fall at a late fence and lie prone in full view on the live tv footage. He did survive, but he was left very, very sore.

The winner staggered and looked at the point of collapse as he pulled up after the post before they cut away. Did he go down?

Another horse is ridden to death.

This is sport?

Aintree now has fantastic covered post race cool down facilities, but you’ve got to be able to get the horses there in one piece after the race 👀.
Click to expand...
The winner didn’t go down but I was very annoyed that Mullins didn’t immediately jump off him. Appalling behaviour.

Plus later on they pull the horse out for photos on the course and Mullins jumped back on bareback. He also should be banned. Dreadful.
 
Trot_on said:
The idea that a horse was raced to death sickens me. I hope its reviewed deeply and something comes out of it. Jockey's should be the one looking out the for the horse in the moment and making the right decision for the horse.

I've no idea if this is true, but I did hear somewhere that trainers often run older horses in hope that they'll fall/die to ensure an insurance payout rather than have a worthless horse coming to the end of it's career. Which is horrific and I hope to god that it's not true. But who knows when money is involved.

I don't hate racing, and I don't think it's cruel but I do think there is so much surrounding the race itself that it unethical which must be scrutinized. The over-breeding, the ones that don't make the grade, the ones that come out unsound, the horses being started far too young, living in awful conditions (for horses) causing numerous psychological issues. Trainers are getting better and better, but it's still not good enough (same with any high-money stakes horse sport). The National does make national and sometimes international headlines which makes it a useful tool to dicuss horse racing ethics. So many non-horsey people ask me if I watch it and then what I think about racing in general, which gives me the chance to educate a little bit.

I agree with CCL about a flagging system, or even better an ear piece so that Jockey's can't say that they didn't think the flag was for them. There is so much money in racing, the sky is surely the limit when it comes to implementing safety features - fingers crossed the death of this horse causes such an uproar that they have to make changes.
Click to expand...
I highly doubt these horses are insured.

Also, qualification for the race is strict. You can't just enter anything in it.
 
The reality is, it should have been abundantly clear to that jockey that that horse was done.

He dropped back so sharply and went from being in contention for the lead, to being about twelve places back. All within a matter of maybe six seconds.

He knew the horse was done. He knew he had no chance of winning.

Having watched it back, it really is quite pitiful to see.
 
Tiddlypom said:
We saw a prominent front runner take a horrible fall at a late fence and lie prone in full view on the live tv footage. He did survive, but he was left very, very sore.

The winner staggered and looked at the point of collapse as he pulled up after the post before they cut away. Did he go down?

Another horse is ridden to death.

This is sport?

Aintree now has fantastic covered post race cool down facilities, but you’ve got to be able to get the horses there in one piece after the race 👀.
Click to expand...



These are living, breathing creatures, we dont have the right to do this for entertainment.
.
 
Trot_on said:
I don't hate racing, and I don't think it's cruel but I do think there is so much surrounding the race itself that it unethical which must be scrutinized. The over-breeding, the ones that don't make the grade, the ones that come out unsound, the horses being started far too young, living in awful conditions (for horses) causing numerous psychological issues.
Click to expand...
But that is racing. You can't be ok with the actual racing (as it stands) and but not with the awful background stuff, because that's where the races come from. The overbreeding (and the line breeding) is necessary to get those freak individuals that people get so excited about and to maintain 'standards'. The ones that don't make the grade are an inevitable corollary of that. So are the ones that end up breaking, often, as line breeding concentrates weaknesses as well as strengths - look at ECVM, for example - rife in TBs and horses with TB in them. And, as often pointed out, it costs money to get a horse on the ground and to the age of 3 or 4 and no one wants to spend that money when they could be making it (or at least getting some fun out of it).
 
Only 16 out of 34 finished, that must tell you something, would this be accepted in showjumping dressage etc
4 miles and 40 jumps

What are hurdles about, they ride very badly some horses take off far too soon to make it
Click to expand...

Digital overhead moving signing ahead of the field, when you re numbers up you stop, or ear pieces

On site ex large observation boxes for any horse that falls

Improved jockey training

The race watch thing has logged around 2000 deaths since 2000

I can't see any way around banning it ultimately
 
ycbm said:
These are living, breathing creatures, we dont have the right to do this for entertainment.
.
Click to expand...

I completely agree what has happened to Celebre D’Allen is unacceptable. The jockey should have pulled up.
However do we have the "right" to ride horses at all? Racing has its faults most certainly, as do many many other equestrian sports and practices. Riding horses in general is for our entertainment.
 
Given jockeys occasionally struggle to follow the course, jump the wrong fence etc, you’d have to have to a fool proof system in place if you wanted to start telling individual jocks to pull up from 30mph. Who makes the decision? Who protects that person from owners and trainers?


As an aside re pulling up, for those who don’t know - they had spotters around the entire Badminton course in 2024 who could relay back to the ground jury any concerns. When it was announced at the riders meeting it did not go down well! Needless to say though it worked as the xc was pretty much a success. Probably helped that the spotters were respected named in the sport…
 
Gallop_Away said:
I completely agree what has happened to Celebre D’Allen is unacceptable. The jockey should have pulled up.
However do we have the "right" to ride horses at all? Racing has its faults most certainly, as do many many other equestrian sports and practices. Riding horses in general is for our entertainment.
Click to expand...


Whataboutery, pure and simple.

No other horse sport comes anywhere near killing as many horses in the course of training for or competing at the sport than racing and jump racing doubly so.

Eventing would not survive a month if it killed as many horses on course as jump racing does, there would be at least one dead for every weekend of cross country in any one location, ten dead some weekends. The sport would not survive.
.
 
ycbm said:
Whataboutery, pure and simple.

No other horse sport comes anywhere near killing as many horses in the course of training for or competing at the sport than racing and jump racing doubly so.

Eventing would not survive a month if it killed as many horses on course as jump racing does, there would be at least one dead for every weekend of cross country in any one location, ten dead some weekends. The sport would not survive.
.
Click to expand...

Not whataboutery at all. You talk about our "right" to do this to horses and I asked you the questions as to what "right" we have to ride horses at all. You can bleat whataboutery if you want, but it is a relevant question in my opinion.
Dressage finds itself under high scrutiny since the CD incident. What "right" have we to expect horses to perform unnatural movements for our amusement? What "rights" do we have to expect horses to jump 7ft puissance walls for our entertainment? What right have we to sit on a living breathing creature for our own amusement?
You can choose not to answer the question if you wish but please don't simply try and dodge an uncomfortable topic with the cop out of calling it whataboutery to ask the question 🙄
 
The jockey, Nolan, apparently has had to delete all his social media accounts due to online abuse.

He has been banned for 10 days for 'pushing a tired horse'.

I completely agree with the poster above who suggested that he should now be charged with 'bringing racing into disrepute' which I think carries a much higher penalty.

However you should also consider the penalties imposed on jockeys by the horseracing authorities for not pushing their horses out. See the information in this article also in today's Racing Post....

www.racingpost.com

Jockey loses appeal against seven-day ban despite panel describing rules as 'harsh'

Adam Farragher has lost his appeal against a seven-day ban for not showing sufficient effort in riding out all the way to the line on fourth-placed... Read More
www.racingpost.com www.racingpost.com

But Clement Goldstone KC, chairman of the three-person independent disciplinary panel, said the case highlighted the "harshness" of rule F37, which requires jockeys to make, and be seen to make, substantial effort to obtain the best possible placing.
There has to be a balance struck somehow between the issue of non-triers and associated penalties and the issue of pushing an exhausted horse.

Whilst flagging/microphones seem unlikely to be practical in a race with horses going 30mph and bunched together, I think if the penalties for pushing tired horses were made significantly higher than those for non-triers (10 days instead of 7 doesn't strike me as sufficient difference) to hit ignorant jockeys in the pocket should work better than what we've got now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top