Grand National meeting.

Crazy_cat_lady said:
Surely if he wasn't so exhausted, exhausted to the point he collapsed, he would have been in a stronger position to fight off the infection? He may still have succumbed to it, but it probably reduced his chances of fighting it. Bit like people seem to pick up illness more easily when run down
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I think the collapse was due to heat exhaustion which is a different ball game to exhaustion itself.
 
ycbm said:
I'm sorry but surely that can only by written by someone who's never ridden a galloping thoroughbred, never mind one on a racecourse, never mind a tired one on a racecourse facing a jump on a slightly wrong stride?
.
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you are completely wrong, I think you should apologise


I have bred and broken thoroughbreds

Nowhere did I say was a jockey!

Don't try to take away part of my life that was utterly thrilling
 
ester said:
Watching John Francome in his dealer boots and cords jump on a random hunt horse at barbury a few years ago was an absolute masterclass in sympathetic riding. It’s always stuck with me!
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I used to ride out with John on his pony, when he was very young. A brilliant rider who said that it was ridiculous to use your whip on a horse at the end of a race as they had given everything by then.
 
AdorableAlice said:
www.racingpost.com

'It's been portrayed like I don't care but I'm more heartbroken than anyone can imagine about Celebre D'Allen'

Micheal Nolan responds to criticism following the death of the Grand National runner
www.racingpost.com www.racingpost.com

A comment from the jockey, and it is time to leave the man alone.
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I still don’t give a stuff about the jockey. As a paid professional if he can’t keep his cool in the heat of the moment he needs another career before he takes another one to that end.
 
The jockey was hardly the problem tbh, it's perfectly possible that any other jockey would have ridden in substantially the same way. The problem is with jockeys as a whole, who are happy to push horses to give everything they have for the benefit of a bunch of humans watching (and themselves). For me that has the ick factor.
 
Abuffalosoldier died after the race and Bangers and during the race, both collapsed. It happens more frequently than you might realise. That was in November last year. A third also collapsed and died racing on another course 4 days later aged 3. Another who was 4yrs old collapsed and died in October during a race

You have to ask the question why?
 
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Birker2020 said:
Abuffalosoldier died after the race and Bangers and during the race, both collapsed. It happens more frequently than you might realise. That was in November last year. A third also collapsed and died racing on another course 4 days later aged 3. Another who was 4yrs old collapsed and died in October during a race

You have to ask the question why?
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At least one of them died from cardiac arrest. There is currently ongoing research into the cause - a similar problem happens in fit, healthy young humans playing high level sport. Think Premiership footballers.

Plenty of people asking 'why'.

Even if the horses' connections didn't give two stuffs about the horse as a horse (really unlikely) they will want to know why they have lost their invested money.

How many horses raced in the UK last year?
 
If they're considered unruly, they can be banned. I suppose taking chunks out of your opponent could be classed as unruly behaviour. I'm sure I heard of a horse wearing a muzzle for that reason. Might not have been in the UK though.
 
Fred66 said:
That is your interpretation and not what is written.

You decided this on Monday and despite the report not stating it you re choosing to interpret it to meet your opinion.

It clearly states that the exercise associated episode had concluded and that the infection presented later.
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So just a coincidence then eh?

Rubbish.

The horse would still be alive if he'd never run the race.
 
Pleuropneumonia aka ‘shipping fever’ in horses. Sorry for those who so want Celebre D’Allen’s death to be found to be unconnected to him collapsing in the Grand National, but strenuous exercise, especially in racehorses, is a known stressor that can lead to pleuropneumonia.

www.horseandhound.co.uk

Understanding shipping fever in horses - Horse & Hound

Shipping fever in horses (pleuropneumonia) is a potentially fatal condition that can result from travelling horses long distances
www.horseandhound.co.uk www.horseandhound.co.uk

Other causes of pleuropneumonia​

While the majority of cases are associated with the stress of long-distance transport, pleuropneumonia can also occur:

  • After strenuous exercise, particularly in racehorses
  • After general anaesthesia and surgery
  • After infections such as strangles
  • As a follow on from inhalation pneumonia due to choke or other problems such as an inhaled foreign body
  • After a chest wound such as a broken rib or penetrating injury
 
So ... Bottom line. Put the fences back up to serious height to slow down the race. Move it to mid march and hopefully a cooler date.. An age limit would be counter productive in my opinion.
Any fit healthy horse should be able to handle 4 miles at a hunting pace over big fences and still have a dash for the last half mile. What we have now is practically a four and a half mile hurdle race.
I have loved the national since I was a kid ,dreamed of riding in it. On a pony club mock hunt I was called over by the field master Jack (on trev,...should identify to those that know) Get along side and kick on hard .I did .He veered off line at a bloody great hedge and drop ,we flew ! He leaned over as we galloped on and said "Now you know what Beechers feels like. He had done it and knew.The thrill is still as vivid half a centaury later. What do I feel now about the national now . Its too fast ,its a horse killer now. Ban It . It kills me to say this .The national has been carved up to appease the ignorant ,and in doing so has become the thing that true animal lovers hate. If your horse cant hunt over 5 ft 6 hedges then it has no business being in the grand national

I have studied the national. Watched numerous races ,even back to 1926 . What came across clearly was that no one back then even considered a racing line.It was all about getting a clear run into the fence without being brought down. In fairness there was an awful lot of bad riding by amateurs which now would have seriously involved the stewards but essentially the horses either refused or if they fell it was at a far more gentle pace. There is a whole world of difference between toppling over a big brush fence or hitting the ground at a modern racing pace.
 
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Bob notacob said:
So ... Bottom line. Put the fences back up to serious height to slow down the race. Move it to mid march and hopefully a cooler date.. An age limit would be counter productive in my opinion.
Any fit healthy horse should be able to handle 4 miles at a hunting pace over big fences and still have a dash for the last half mile. What we have now is practically a four and a half mile hurdle race.
I have loved the national since I was a kid ,dreamed of riding in it. On a pony club mock hunt I was called over by the field master Jack (on trev,...should identify to those that know) Get along side and kick on hard .I did .He veered off line at a bloody great hedge and drop ,we flew ! He leaned over as we galloped on and said "Now you know what Beechers feels like. He had done it and knew.The thrill is still as vivid half a centaury later. What do I feel now about the national now . Its too fast ,its a horse killer now. Ban It . It kills me to say this .The national has been carved up to appease the ignorant ,and in doing so has become the thing that true animal lovers hate. If your horse cant hunt over 5 ft 6 hedges then it has no business being in the grand national
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I really hope the fences won't go up again ! I can understand your point of view but i really doubt the fences will go back up, the general public
wouldn't understand it.

Horses have been dying for years in the GN, it's not new, big fences or smaller one, it's just too long, too hard.

The only way forward for me it to stop it, the world is moving on and there are enough other races all years round.

If the GN stop, nobody will suffer from it, people will simply be uspet for a while then concentrat on other races.....
 
Janique said:
I really hope the fences won't go up again ! I can understand your point of view but i really doubt the fences will go back up, the general public
wouldn't understand it.

Horses have been dying for years in the GN, it's not new, big fences or smaller one, it's just too long, too hard.

The only way forward for me it to stop it, the world is moving on and there are enough other races all years round.

If the GN stop, nobody will suffer from it, people will simply be uspet for a while then concentrat on other races.....
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Nobody is.ever going to out the fences up or do anything to make the course harder.
 
Ive resisted until now but Ive got to have my say, Im largely with Bob. In trying to appease those who know nothing about racing but regardless, think its cruel, it has been turned into a 4.5 mile handicap over "borderline" normal fences with better quality horses running too fast, too early in the race. I also tend to think that a lot of modern day racehorses are not as physically tough as they used to be. Im sure in the old days flat bred horses didnt go chasing, if you look at some of the old favourites they had a bit more bone and were likely a bit sturdier, more hunting types. Ive always loved NH racing and wont stop watching it, I know the risks involved and I do firmly believe that the vast majority of the horses are very well looked after and if the worst does happen, the end is quick with minimal suffering, a long way from some of the appalling suffering in "normal" pet horses who may only get checked once a day. I dont like seeing horses fall, but of course I know some will and I know some wont get up again. I hate to say it but I do think the National has had its day, all the regional Nationals are just races over normal fences but a mile longer than the norm so not really Nationals at all. The Grand National either needs to go back to its roots, a longer race over the softer birch, a few odd ones thrown in or bin it. Maybe we could put a minimum time limit on it, you need to get round in over 9 minutes for example, no prizes for finishing quicker and the winner wont be declared until the horse has been checked over and its heart rate back to normal within a certain time. That might deter anyone from entering who suspects their horse will struggle, although again, anyone who would willingly get on a horse that is physically suspect and ride round Aintree or anywhere else for that matter, would be barking mad
As an aside, I have owned an ex racehorse in the past, he was the most wonderful gentle animal and a perfect hack. He failed a vet check when I needed to sell him as he had a grade 3 heart murmur. Vet was of the opinion he'd always had it which is why he was a hopeless racehorse. I didnt have him vetted when I bought him and we only ever hacked gently around the local bridleways and he was fine. He was never going to over exert himself with me!!
 
MyBoyChe I have also not joined in the discussion, mostly because Im usually at work reading it! However I 100% agree with you. Lifelong NH fan here, and I used to love the GN back in its heyday of Rummy, Aldaniti etc. The build up on Grandstand was so exciting, seeing all the horses at home and getting to know them. However, I understand that things had to change, it could not continue in that format.

But 4 mile handicaps just do not interest me. I don't bother watching any of the other nationals and I usually skip the 3 miler if I've recorded the days racing. Give me the Jonbons and Sprinters of this world any day. If the BHA bowed to pressure and abolished it, or if it stopped being televised, I would not miss it, in fact i'd welcome it because the damage it does to the sport could very likely see an across the board ban. It happens. I lived in NSW for a few years and they're horrified we still have jumps racing over here.
 
I don't like seeing horses pushed beyond what they're comfortably capable of full stop regardless which discipline it is. 'Neglect happens in livery yards/horses die in eventing/dressage horses are treated worse constantly pulled BTV' - that's awful too. It's not really a tit for tat situation.

Those saying if racing is banned the horses would be dead or passed around - that happens already. The only difference if it was banned would be after this generation it wouldn't keep happening in a cycle, and an already overpopulated horse market would die down.

The market is flooded with failed racers more than any other type. Probably 50% of those are irrevocably f*cked, 30% end up in homes with numpties who saw a cheap price tag and pass the horse pillar to post and the other 20% are the very lucky few.

Working in a racing yard was the most depressing thing on horse management I ever saw and this was one where we had horses come in from the best trainers in Newmarket. We were frequently told to rug horses up enough to sweat, pump them with as much cereal as they could eat, some horses were with us for 4+ months on the instruction of no turnout at all, the horses would be rearing in their stables going clinically insane. It makes me feel like crying just thinking about it. I truly don't know how anyone can know that and support the industry. This wasn't the exception it was the rule.
 
IrishMilo said:
I don't like seeing horses pushed beyond what they're comfortably capable of full stop regardless which discipline it is. 'Neglect happens in livery yards/horses die in eventing/dressage horses are treated worse constantly pulled BTV' - that's awful too. It's not really a tit for tat situation.

Those saying if racing is banned the horses would be dead or passed around - that happens already. The only difference if it was banned would be after this generation it wouldn't keep happening in a cycle, and an already overpopulated horse market would die down.

The market is flooded with failed racers more than any other type. Probably 50% of those are irrevocably f*cked, 30% end up in homes with numpties who saw a cheap price tag and pass the horse pillar to post and the other 20% are the very lucky few.

Working in a racing yard was the most depressing thing on horse management I ever saw and this was one where we had horses come in from the best trainers in Newmarket. We were frequently told to rug horses up enough to sweat, pump them with as much cereal as they could eat, some horses were with us for 4+ months on the instruction of no turnout at all, the horses would be rearing in their stables going clinically insane. It makes me feel like crying just thinking about it. I truly don't know how anyone can know that and support the industry. This wasn't the exception it was the rule.
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Cue a comment about 'this trainer I know who turns their horses out' :rolleyes: Every racing thread ought to have this comment pinned to the top of it.
 
Burnttoast said:
Cue a comment about 'this trainer I know who turns their horses out' :rolleyes: Every racing thread ought to have this comment pinned to the top of it.
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I've tried many times to work with horses professionally and every time I've had to stop as I hated what I saw and was told to do. I'm not even talking about the overt abuse and cruelty the general public probably imagine, I'm talking horses who live the most boring, unenriched lives possible where their very basic needs aren't met. I could deal with the likes of the GN if I knew the horses lived a fundamentally good life. But for anyone who thinks the trainers care about the horses, I really wish I could believe that but it absolutely does not add up with what I saw.

By the way, a lot of the Newmarket bred horses are shipped to Quatar for desert racing and endurance. There's a good chance that the ones who aren't good are literally untacked and left to die in the desert. And no, I'm not joking. Sorry to upset anyone but that is the dark reality of the industry.
 
IrishMilo said:
I've tried many times to work with horses professionally and every time I've had to stop as I hated what I saw and was told to do. I'm not even talking about the overt abuse and cruelty the general public probably imagine, I'm talking horses who live the most boring, unenriched lives possible where their very basic needs aren't met. I could deal with the likes of the GN if I knew the horses lived a fundamentally good life. But for anyone who thinks the trainers care about the horses, I really wish I could believe that but it absolutely does not add up with what I saw.

By the way, a lot of the Newmarket bred horses are shipped to Quatar for desert racing and endurance. There's a good chance that the ones who aren't good are literally untacked and left to die in the desert. And no, I'm not joking. Sorry to upset anyone but that is the dark reality of the industry.
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I'm not sure it's possible to work in the equine sport/racing industry and love horses without being guilty of either staggering naivety or off the scale cognitive dissonance. Don't suppose that will be a popular comment but I can't see how things can be other than that, given the fact that vast numbers of horses must be bred to keep things going and most of them will not come close to success in competitive terms. 'Wastage' - what a word to describe a huge cohort of sentient beings.
 
The old adage of two wrongs don't make a right seems particularly appropriate here. Yes, some leisure horses and horses competing in disciplines other than racing are kept in highly unnatural ways that compromise their physical and psychological welfare, are trained and ridden in unethical ways and many are cared for by people who lack the basic knowledge to ensure their basic safety or well-being or just dont care about it?
But why can't we just do better and stop the obvious abuse? Stop supporting competitions that have a whiff of the Circus Maximus about them - thirls and spills folks - step up and bet! Racing 2yos. How challenging can we make this xc course to attract a good attendance and entries? Dressage - I believe it was Xenophon who said you can't beat a dancer and expect grace?
I think we all need to be cognisant of the social contract and re-think some of our practices going forward so our equine partners can expect our repect and consideration in their working lives (which they surely deserve) so that we are able to justify continuing to ride, compete and generally keep them for whatever purpose.
 
Alwaysmoretoknow said:
The old adage of two wrongs don't make a right seems particularly appropriate here. Yes, some leisure horses and horses competing in disciplines other than racing are kept in highly unnatural ways that compromise their physical and psychological welfare, are trained and ridden in unethical ways and many are cared for by people who lack the basic knowledge to ensure their basic safety or well-being or just dont care about it?
But why can't we just do better and stop the obvious abuse? Stop supporting competitions that have a whiff of the Circus Maximus about them - thirls and spills folks - step up and bet! Racing 2yos. How challenging can we make this xc course to attract a good attendance and entries? Dressage - I believe it was Xenophon who said you can't beat a dancer and expect grace?
I think we all need to be cognisant of the social contract and re-think some of our practices going forward so our equine partners can expect our repect and consideration in their working lives (which they surely deserve) so that we are able to justify continuing to ride, compete and generally keep them for whatever purpose.
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Don’t disagree with this, I personally think that doing away with tracks and roads and the steeplechase in eventing had a negative effect. But it was all in the name of inclusivity and accessibility.
 
Fred66 said:
Can I enquire as to why you assume it’s bad yards that are the norm rather than good ones?
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What do you mean by 'bad'? I grew up in Newmarket so I have a good idea of what many typical flat yards look like (stables, walkers, possibly a few tiny tiny little paddocks). Lambourn is much the same. Site acreages in low single figures for tens of horses, most of which is walkways, yards, parking. NH yards sometimes have more land, but racing yards that turn horses out are not the norm. They physically can't be.
 
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