Grassroots/Entry level Competitions- Do they exist Affiliated?

[dianchi]

Now this is not a "oh how unfair is life post" and also not a dig at the great inter-counties posts.

However,

Are competitions that were set out as entry grassroots comps no longer? Inter counties BD was meant to be a first step grassroots comp but now people who have ridden at nationals (and won)/professional riders who have ridden at PSG+ are now appearing or being named on teams because if its within the rules.

I rode last year at one and was shocked at the combinations there, especially when one appeared in H&H at a international show a week after!

Equally Team Quest- again seems that now the rules are established so are the ways to get round them!

BS used to have a rule about riders in the top 250 not being able to ride in BN,Disco and Newcomers but i don't think this exists anymore? (couldn't see it in the Rule book)

I don't event- but is the Grassroots champs at Badminton really grassroots?

Just a musing rather than a whinge!

 

[miss_c]

I didn't read it as a dig at all

In the SW Inter-County rules anybody who had ridden at the National or Winter Championships had to compete at a higher level. I initially was a reserve at Novice because I had come top 10 at regionals so could only be a 'last resort' choice at Prelim (and ended up being moved due to horse lameness). The standard last weekend was incredibly high though, it did seem to me like a mini-regionals which made doing well all the more special.

I did TQ last year and haven't bothered this year for that exact reason. G is still fairly green at Novice but I would be up against horses with points at Medium. Last year in the Prelim there was a horse that had evented up to Intermediate/1* but had no BD points so could do it.

I don't SJ or event so can't comment on those but even at the supposedly 'lower level' Petplan Areas and BRC areas the standard is immensely high and many of the horses cost way more than my lorry and horses combined. It is great for dressage, but I agree can be a bit demoralising. However on the other hand it does make it all the more special when you do well.

 

[dianchi]

So you agree?

Inter-counties was supposed to be a grassroots comp and now its not!

 

[Lanky Loll]

BRC are pretty strict on what level you compete at but only affiliated points count.
Our team won the Novice Winter SJ this time - three of us on ex-racehorses and one on a rescue pony so they're not all expensive One of our ex-racers is an extremely experienced eventer but he's also in his 20's and deserves the step down. However because we won this year he's been upgraded again for SJ as well as Eventing (which they've always refused to down grade him for) despite him not having won any affiliated points in either discipline for years.
Can't comment on the RC dressage as it's not something we've attempted but the SJ and Arena Eventing which are the two that I've tried so far were very much grassroots

 

[miss_c]

The thing is that the standard is so incredibly high these days and as a result people who fall under the 'grassroots' umbrella are still riding to a very good standard. I would be interested to know how would you yourself define grassroots? (Not meant as a dig towards yourself in any way whatsoever)

 

[Jo_x]

BS used to have a rule about riders in the top 250 not being able to ride in BN,Disco and Newcomers but i don't think this exists anymore? (couldn't see it in the Rule book)

I don't event- but is the Grassroots champs at Badminton really grassroots?

I think BN/Disc/Newcomers are primarily aimed at novice horses, not novice riders, hence the restriction on horse winnings but not riders. The amateur series aims to cater to amateur riders, although when you see the number of professional (but not top level) riders in these classes you can question whether the restrictions are tight enough, I generally think not.

Badminton grassroots has pretty strict criteria I think? Not being allowed points/more than a few points and the time limit on having ridden at intermediate? So whilst the standard is incredibly high, I do think it's very effective in filtering out higher level riders.

 

[Golden_Match_II]

Know nothing about BD or BS, but I think the rules for BE Grassroots are actually very strictly grassroots, and the same goes for the restricted Novice champs at Gatcombe this year. I'm a one horse amateur, competed to Intermediate before university (in 2013 completed 3 Intermediates) and now haven't got time to compete to that level. I don't think I'd be able to do either of these champs until about 2018 or something! So it is aimed at grassroots riders in eventing, and there are lots of events catered to 80/90/100 riders.

 

[glamourpuss]

Badminton Grassroots does have pretty strict criteria.
- Horses cannot have any points at the regional final.
- No 'downgraded' horses
- Rider must not have ridden at intermediate or above in the last 10 years.
Whilst this is great & does keep things at grassroots as much as possible it does mean that we are seeing 'professional' GR 90/100 riders. No intention of going any higher, just collecting qualifications year after year. There is nothing wrong with this but IMO does mean that it's having an effect on the lower levels.

 

[milliepops]

The thing is that the standard is so incredibly high these days and as a result people who fall under the 'grassroots' umbrella are still riding to a very good standard. I would be interested to know how would you yourself define grassroots? )

Yes, I think we all define grassroots differently. I've trained my own horse, from a rescue centre, to the dizzy (!) heights of medium, with little help until recently and all on a shoestring. I now have a lesson every 6 or 8 weeks. I still don't have a blinking horse box so competition opportunities are limited. I would say I was grassroots, just I've dragged myself up the ladder a bit further than some .

Never considered doing any of the BD teams because I can't get to the training days etc to be eligible. But I had a google and the paperwork was as Miss C outlined - rules to exclude combinations who had been at Champs etc which seems fair.

I would have thought that people who had both the aspiration, horsepower and ability would therefore rule themselves out of competing unfairly? I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that all competitors would rather take a punt at the winter champs, say, than be on the inter-regional team, kudos wise? No digs intended anywhere btw!!

& I do feel that it has to be competitive *even at grassroots* - we all need a bit of stimulus to continue improving, to aspire to get better, to beat our previous performance & strive to be the best we can. Not everyone can be on every team, not everyone can get to every championship - that's the very nature of the beast.

 

[Lanky Loll]

The thing is that the standard is so incredibly high these days and as a result people who fall under the 'grassroots' umbrella are still riding to a very good standard. I would be interested to know how would you yourself define grassroots? (Not meant as a dig towards yourself in any way whatsoever)

Hmmm... well I competed to a high standard personally as a child, but last year was my first year competing for 20 years! I'm also work full time and am a mum to a toddler so definitely one that is at the bottom level 2 of my team members are also working mums who haven't done much for years and the other has only started eventing at 80/90 level in the last couple of years. We're all very much amateurs and fit our horses around the rest of our lives. The sponsors actually commented how nice it was to see a truly amateur team do so well
To me grassroots are people that don't do this for a living, have 1 or 2 horses and are often the one's putting in ungodly hours to take home a rosette of any colour - if I can nick a placing in good company (especially against professionals or semi-professionals) then I'm happy. When we went to Hartpury we were hoping for a decent placing. When it came down to 3 teams against the clock our stated aim was "**** or bust " as we'd never have forgiven ourselves if we hadn't gone for the win and lost out by a small margin.
Just because you're not a professional or are competing at a lower level doesn't mean the standard of riding has to be poor. My goal agreed with my trainer is that I want to be competitive at whatever level I'm doing and I have to be able to do that with the time I have available. So whilst my horse is probably capable of jumping better/higher, I don't have the time to compete every weekend and get her to the competitions that would be required or to do as much work as would be required at home, so we aim to be the best we can be at what we're doing - I think that's probably true of some (most?) grassroots riders.
Sorry if that's a bit rambly - struggling to be properly articulate today!

 

[miss_c]

I would have thought that people who had both the aspiration, horsepower and ability would therefore rule themselves out of competing unfairly? I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that all competitors would rather take a punt at the winter champs, say, than be on the inter-regional team, kudos wise? No digs intended anywhere btw!!

Most definitely! I'm a fat girl on a cob for example, 100% amateur, working to be able to afford my horses (Genie and a welsh cob yearling), etc, as are countless others. However it is my dream to ride at the winter champs as there is such a magical atmosphere there. Whether we ever get there is another matter, but I can have a ruddy good try and in the meantime enjoy competitions like the Inter-Countys and the Inter-Regionals (next week... eep!) if we are lucky enough to be selected. I have no idea if I'll ever have the horse power or the required results again, so why not go for it when I can?

 

[Farma]

I thought for all inter county entries riders were not allowed to have ridden at regionals or on senior international teams?

 

[miss_c]

I thought for all inter county entries riders were not allowed to have ridden at regionals or on senior international teams?

We've just had the SW Inter-Counties and there was nothing in the rules specifically about regionals, inter-regionals or home-internationals that I could see. However it was very clear about National and Winter Championships. That being said, I was told by my County Coordinator that they were supposed to give priority to those who had not come top 10 at regionals, etc, hence I was initially selected as a Novice Individual before moving down to Prelim as a team member when another horse went lame and there was nobody else to fill the space on the team.

 

[texascbs]

Does anyone know what breeds competed at the Grassroots Championships? I was wondering if any British Native breeds like Cleveland Bays, and Ponies competed (pures or crosses).

Thanks
GG

 

[miss_c]

Does anyone know what breeds competed at the Grassroots Championships? I was wondering if any British Native breeds like Cleveland Bays, and Ponies competed (pures or crosses).

Thanks
GG

There was a purebred New Forest at the Badminton Grassroots yesterday in the BE90. There will no doubt have been numerous welsh pb's as well!

 

[milliepops]

I have no idea if I'll ever have the horse power or the required results again, so why not go for it when I can?

Dead right keep on keeping on, I say!

 

[texascbs]

There was a purebred New Forest at the Badminton Grassroots yesterday in the BE90. There will no doubt have been numerous welsh pb's as well!

Great news. Thanks. I have Cleveland Bays, and I am always looking to see if they are in open competition not just breed shows. I love New Forest too.

 

[ester]

BRC are pretty strict on what level you compete at but only affiliated points count.
Our team won the Novice Winter SJ this time - three of us on ex-racehorses and one on a rescue pony so they're not all expensive One of our ex-racers is an extremely experienced eventer but he's also in his 20's and deserves the step down. However because we won this year he's been upgraded again for SJ as well as Eventing (which they've always refused to down grade him for) despite him not having won any affiliated points in either discipline for years.
Can't comment on the RC dressage as it's not something we've attempted but the SJ and Arena Eventing which are the two that I've tried so far were very much grassroots

They seem to have reduced the rider restrictions though I think recently. My YO who teaches a lot and has rides at adv medium and PSG was able to compete at both the novice and intermediate winter dressage champs doing a novice test on a v. smart 9yo who happens to have particularly low mileage since being imported at 5 (ish) competed in Germany as a youngster so not unexposed.

Frank is pretty successful at novice, RC areas and bit of BD at times but I am nowhere near the rider she is and wouldn't expect to be riding against someone like that at RC level.

 

[Lanky Loll]

They seem to have reduced the rider restrictions though I think recently. My YO who teaches a lot and has rides at adv medium and PSG was able to compete at both the novice and intermediate winter dressage champs doing a novice test on a v. smart 9yo who happens to have particularly low mileage since being imported at 5 (ish) competed in Germany as a youngster so not unexposed.

Frank is pretty successful at novice, RC areas and bit of BD at times but I am nowhere near the rider she is and wouldn't expect to be riding against someone like that at RC level.

It's still fairly restrictive:
Novice Winter Championship Senior and Junior Prelim 0 Rider eligibility (not permitted): FBHS, BHSI, BHSII (a), BHSAI (a), BRC Eq 4, BD groups 1-6 (b), PC A Test (a), (c)(i)

http://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/BHS/Files/PDF Documents/BRC/Rulebook/BRC Rulebook.ashx

 

[dianchi]

I thought for all inter county entries riders were not allowed to have ridden at regionals or on senior international teams?

It's the regional team and not at the same level
So you could do inter regionals at novice and them inter county at elem

 

[ester]

It's still fairly restrictive:
Novice Winter Championship Senior and Junior Prelim 0 Rider eligibility (not permitted): FBHS, BHSI, BHSII (a), BHSAI (a), BRC Eq 4, BD groups 1-6 (b), PC A Test (a), (c)(i)

http://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/BHS/Files/PDF Documents/BRC/Rulebook/BRC Rulebook.ashx

yes but they can all do novice, which isn't a lot higher is it!? unless they have competed under FEI rules in the last 5 years. I could be competing against and FBHS if they haven't done that, and frankly I'd be expecting lessons from anyone II and above .

 

[Bernster]

I recently did the training day for Herts inter county teams, for the experience, didn't totally embarrass myself as expected, but as anticipated the standard on the day was pretty high. Glad you alerted me OP as at least I knew we would be seriously outclassed, but he did say nice things about my horse, so I did take some positives away from the day. I'm def sticking to unaff stuff for a while yet as too big a jump and too expensive to go aff.

 

[armchair_rider]

Badminton Grassroots does have pretty strict criteria.
- Horses cannot have any points at the regional final.
- No 'downgraded' horses
- Rider must not have ridden at intermediate or above in the last 10 years.
Whilst this is great & does keep things at grassroots as much as possible it does mean that we are seeing 'professional' GR 90/100 riders. No intention of going any higher, just collecting qualifications year after year. There is nothing wrong with this but IMO does mean that it's having an effect on the lower levels.

I think these people would probably exist anyway, simply because a lot of people can't or don't want to event at a higher level. However perhaps things could be made fairer by limiting how often one may compete in the GR finals at Badminton say no more than 3 years in a rolling 5 year period.

In more general terms, grassroots/amateurism is always a bit of a dodgy area in that it includes a huge variety of people and thus hugely varied expertise and resources (spare time, money for horse/lessons/competing vary enormously). I don't think that instructors etc are necessarily at an advantage since they may do a job which has little relevance to their competitive discipline and have very little time for their own horse. Conversely somebody with an entirely non-horsey job may be able to devote a lot of time to their horse and improving their riding.

 

[Lanky Loll]

yes but they can all do novice, which isn't a lot higher is it!? unless they have competed under FEI rules in the last 5 years. I could be competing against and FBHS if they haven't done that, and frankly I'd be expecting lessons from anyone II and above .

True - but dressage makes little/no sense to me with regard to the stipulations of who can do what! At least with the jump disciplines it's slightly more straightforward and TBH I'm more concerned about what the horses have done than the rider a lot of the time. If someone that has done more sees fit to compete at that level, I'd hope they were on a true novice - or at the very least embarrassed!

 

[ester]

Lol, yup, I do just think with the number of rider groupings BD it wouldn't be dreadful if they could exclude a couple. I don't do it anymore tbf due to lack of transport but was just quite :eek3: when I was told what she was going to do .

 

[kzb]

I think these people would probably exist anyway, simply because a lot of people can't or don't want to event at a higher level. However perhaps things could be made fairer by limiting how often one may compete in the GR finals at Badminton say no more than 3 years in a rolling 5 year period.

I think that's a decent idea. I was reading one of the magazines with an article on GR and there were so many "this is my X year at the GR finals". Its great that people are out there doing well and striving for it, but it does take away a place from other people who might love one chance to gallop around at Badminton. I have pretty much abandoned all hope of getting into GR (or being regularly placed) because my mare is unlikely to finish on a 20's score and I feel that's what you need to do.

Maybe I strive too much - I consider going up a level to be the challenge. I can't just sit at 90 because I find it boring, but maybe I would eventually get qualified if I did that!

 

[popsdosh]

Badminton Grassroots does have pretty strict criteria.
- Horses cannot have any points at the regional final.
- No 'downgraded' horses
- Rider must not have ridden at intermediate or above in the last 10 years.
Whilst this is great & does keep things at grassroots as much as possible it does mean that we are seeing 'professional' GR 90/100 riders. No intention of going any higher, just collecting qualifications year after year. There is nothing wrong with this but IMO does mean that it's having an effect on the lower levels.

I agree with you ,I personally think that any horse and rider combination should be stopped qualifying again once they have done it and I think that riders need restricting to a certain number of qualifications before they are excluded otherwise the whole reason for grassroots is just devalued .As for the 10 year rule it should be at any time as there are riders doing grassroot who have been around the full fat Badminton. I never did like the change in the rules where as a combination could stick at a certain level as it just encourages pot hunters to the exclusion of others. They could very easily do open classes at that level even if they dont wish to move up a level I find it strange they do not allow downgraded horses yet will happily let horses compete that in earlier times would have had to have upgraded. There is something wrong with a system were a BE100 horse is worth more than horses competing at novice.

 

[Henry02]

I think the problem that with whatever "grassroots championships" you have, the same type of people are generally going to win. Those that can afford a talented horse, and the lessons and training to go with it.

I've got a very talented horse, but not the time and money to have enough lessons and all the events I'd need to go to.

I'd also look at something like the be80 champs, and think what's the point in going when a horse that is sucessful in advanced medium dressage is competing in my class...

 

[star]

I think the problem that with whatever "grassroots championships" you have, the same type of people are generally going to win. Those that can afford a talented horse, and the lessons and training to go with it.

I've got a very talented horse, but not the time and money to have enough lessons and all the events I'd need to go to.

I'd also look at something like the be80 champs, and think what's the point in going when a horse that is sucessful in advanced medium dressage is competing in my class...

You shouldn't think like that. My horse is working Advanced Medium, competing Medium. Doesn't mean he's much good at a BE100 test as he proved at Badminton on Tuesday. He also knocked 2 poles down and went steady XC. Plenty of people beat me. I also didn't just go out and buy an expensive talented horse. He wasn't expensive, he had his issues, I have plugged away and put blood, sweat and tears into him and now I am reaping the rewards. The year I qualified for the 90 at Badminton I went to one event to qualify for Regionals and one Regional. He was off the rest of the year with injury. You don't need to go to hundreds of events to qualify if you've done your homework. I keep him on DIY livery with limited facilities. We have 2 poles, 2 planks and that's about it. I have put absolutely everything I have into getting him to Badminton - last year for the 90, this year for the 100. I wasn't good enough when I first got him (got 42 dressage in first Regionals) so I put everything into making us good enough. I'm sorry, but people who complain the rules aren't fair etc etc - I just think stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and try harder to be better than them. My horse is nothing special to look at - 15.2hh, half Welsh, half TB, back legs a foot longer than his front ones, but he has a good heart and tries hard for me and I've put my all into it. It's not meant to be easy to qualify for a Championship. I don't care what the people at the top of my class have done with their horses, who they train with and how often, all I care about is that I went there and did my best and my little horse tried his hardest for me.

 

[miss_c]

I don't care what the people at the top of my class have done with their horses, who they train with and how often, all I care about is that I went there and did my best and my little horse tried his hardest for me.

Ruddy well said! (And well done for completing the 100 at Badders!)