Happy Days For ISH Breeders

GrassHorse said:
Ballygowan clover choice is full sister to a Helvick, he competed at 1.30m. Ballygowan clover is also half sister to SHBGB approved stallion Old Leighlin. He has produced some eventing horses.
I think this colt will have to prove himself under the saddle!
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Sorry, have to correct you there. Old Leighlin is not SHBGB approved, graded whatever, at least, not according to the SHBGB site.
He is on the NTR which entails a seriously strict veterinary exam. http://www.trefeinonhorses.co.uk/studs/oldleighlin.htm
 
rebel mountain said:
i am a fan of foreign breeds but we still need to keep our traditional irish pedigree's ,traditional and free from foreign blood
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I thought that once to. Then I printed off a bunch of results from different shows around the world and looked at the breeding of the top placed horses. I very quickly decided to throw my patriotism in the bin.

French horses do seem to cross very well with Irish mares, see Touchdown!
 
I think it became evident in the late 90s the the traditional cross wasn't working any more for producing showjumpers, except maybe clover hill and cruising. Breeders were getting better results out of the same mares when crossing them with warmbloods.

Cavalier Royale was 50% french!
 
GrassHorse said:
I really like French horse too. ( our pretty mares can handle their roman noses )QUOTE]

Loving the way this is nicely diverting onto French horses :D

I was rooting around through (very) old pictures today and I found those, which sort of illustrate a point that keeps coming to me then going again...

picture.php


Both those horses are French bred and 3 years old (I know, I know, I wouldn't dream of doing half as much with 3 year olds as I did back in the day when I didn't know any better). Don't know their exact breeding as, back then, I rode 'em and didn't worry much about how they came to be on this earth :o

Here goes. The one on the left is 100% French trotter, just off the track. Even through the fuzzy photo, you can tell he has a great big unsightly head, a rather long back for a gelding and a damned good natural jump. Problem is even as a 10 year old he never managed to get his canter together and I can assure you that disingaging the back end 3 strides before a 1.20m oxer and finishing off in trot was, well... interesting. Obviously, he was limited by his inability to canter properly.

The one on the right, SF mare, bred by the French National Stud, decent jump but limited scope (couldn't quite cover the very wide ones and struggled in the tripples) and boy oh boy the biggest heart I've ever had the priviledge to be in a partnership with - this was her very first waterjump ever! :)

It is obvious that the trotter on the left was in no way impaired in his jumping ability by his big ugly head, but his conformation (he was bred to trot very fast!) - which didn't prevent him from jumping high and stylishly - stopped him from performing as he certainly couldn't stay collected long enough in canter to go round a 1.20m course.

The pretty SF on the right, though always up for it and trying her best, with a pretty decent conformation never had enough scope to go up to the top either.

Not sure what point I was trying to make... Anyway, if we are going to argue the merits or abscence thereof of "ugly" horses, I for one want to call for a definition of "ugly".
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I think the horseman's expression "handsome is as handsome does" really sums it up. In show jumping especially the variety of horses with talent and scope is almost endless. Yes there is consistency of breeding "type" with some of the continental stallion stations but then you also get the flukes such as Ryan's Son, Stroller, Dundrum yes going back a few years but still valid for example because horses of their ilk still occasionally come through the ranks and you think WHAT?????

Some horses just have "it". Take racehorses and the amount of research that goes into mating and still there is a considerable amount of wasteage with the also rans.

It is not just about conformation, I agree with Ginnie that some horses are restricted in how far they will go but it is a mixture of attitude, bravery, willingness and sometimes just plain temperament and quirkiness that makes a jumper.

Galoubet (my personal French favourite) could not be described as a looker but he was handsome and had swagger and attitude. As I have said earlier in this post I used to jump French horses and bred a couple form a good Irish mare. They are similar in attitude to Irish horses in that they have a mind of their own.
 
Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that. Playing safe by not mentioning any current horses here is a description of a previous top SJ who became a star :)
" his big head made his eyes seem even smaller than they were, his fleshy buttocks didn’t augur much power and because of his under-developed withers his hindquarter seemed overbuilt. His feet showed flat heels, as many French saddlebreds did in those days. So I don’t remember him as a beauty, rather as quite an ugly horse. Looking in my old catalogue, I had made a supplemental note of his lazy gallop and clumsy technique."
 
The site I lifted that from has got some great quotes. Here is another for Cor De La Bryere
"that is not breeding stock, he’s too much of a sport horse. Better geld him; he’ll make a useful gelding"
 
BTW, as Admin said this thread did not meet the criteria for making it a "Sticky" I did ask them if they could let me know exactly what these criteria are.......!

To date, they have not told me - methinks I might have a long wait!
*Yawns*
 
MFH9 said:
I remember dumbloods being referred to as such when they first started coming over here and I've not met any since that would make me change my mind; pretty? yes, athletic? yes, thick as two short planks? YES!

Bread and Butter breeders, be proud of your heritage, don't throw it away on a quick fix.
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Totally agree!

I am the owner of an Irish 'bread and butter' horse (3/4 ID 1/4 TB) who is now sadly retired, so I will hopefully be looking for another soon. But, I will be steering well clear of anything that is tainted with 'dumblood'. I want a horse can gallop (IME dumbloods can't gallop) and hunt all day and come home sound. I want a horse that thinks for itself and looks after itself, because a horse that looks after itself will look after me.

I read the article about Grange Bouncer and was really impressed. He is still doing the job he was bred to do at the age of eighteen, not wrapped up in cotton wool and never ridden outside of an arena. I do not breed, but if I did, he would be the stallion I would use.

The only continental breeds I would consider giving stable room to are Trakehner and SF, but as someone said before, the French use a lot of TB and Anglo Arab, both breeds I love that I certainly would not describe as dumb!
 
At last, a serious post. Thanks Marmalade.

Here we go!

When people come to Ireland looking for what you have described, they will always, always find them by the lorry load. That's not in question. This entire topic snow balled from me mentioning a few horses that have been approved for use in Ireland to hopefully improve the standard of our showjumpers.
There is not a big enough market for all the breeders in Ireland to focus on breeding happy hackers. In fact, I'd rather become a hermit than breed the bread and butter type year in, year out.

Yes, they're saleable,

Yes, they're important,

Yes, they have a good market,

but no, it's not the only market we should aim for.

Where are the Irish dressage horses? Non-existant because they don't move well enough. Why have our eventers been so successful, by accident I might add!? Because, they didn't jump well enough to be pure jumpers, didn't move well enough to be pure dressage horses but would gallop all day long and would jump anything they met. It's the same reason they make super hunters.

So since things are getting slighty more serious again, please folks, tell me this. What should the ISH aim to be in the future?

You see, we don't rank as a dressage horse, We've fallen to the gutter as a showjumping horse and both the Hannovarians and the Selle Francais are gunning for our accidental eventing crown. So as an international sports horse, the ISH is hanging on by it's finger tips yet we produce the top leisure horses in the world. Is that good enough? We've tried to be successful using our best native lines but have only Cruising and his progeny to show for our efforts. Is that good enough? No, it's not.

So, I'm begging you to tell me, how can we reach the top again? Being second is no good either. When you're second, you're first of the losers. How can we be #1 again as an international sports horse? Or do we walk away from that challenge like a bunch of quitters and be happy to produce happy hackers for ever more?

Please tell me
 
Eothain said:
When people come to Ireland looking for what you have described, they will always, always find them by the lorry load.
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Good point Eothain!
I agree, there is no chance that we will loose are native horses. There are loads of breeders that have not used warmbloods and never will.
 
Eothain said:
Or do we walk away from that challenge like a bunch of quitters and be happy to produce happy hackers for ever more?

Please tell me
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I think that your last sentence sums it up for me, having horses of different breeding being above the ISH in the World rankings should make you want to pull your finger out and try to compete with them without following a trend. Be a trend setter bring back the ISH as it was, put the time, effort, money and PRODUCTION into them like you have the Warmblood crosses and don't be a bunch of quitters giving up at the first hurdle, then and only then will you have something to be proud of!!!

As said in a above post look at how many TB's are bred to get those FEW TOP ones, the same goes for Warmbloods, are there any where near as many traditional ISH's bred and produced to that level? I think not, yet as you say they are still holding on.

What happens to the WB horses that don't make the grade, they go on to be Happy hackers???? Production is the key.............
:D
Simon
 
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Eothain

I feel your passion jumping off the page. It hurts not one bit to divert into a bit of fun and frivolity, had a bit of a chortle and got to know each other a bit more. We have discovered some interesting bits and pieces had pics of big ears and Ginnie's lovely French horses.

I know you most likely had your Offaly tongue in cheek ;) but actually, horses with big radar ears do tend to be more generous, honest and kind. A lot of people won't buy a horse with mean ears and I know a couple of top show producers who look for that particular trait. Maybe you are on to something :)

The leisure market is huge we are talking millions of leisure riders in the UK, Europe and the USA and a significant market share want Irish sport horses and Connemaras we do not throw that away or consider it any less valid than breeding 1.50m horses, in fact it is our foundation stone and if breeding and selling those horses as "bread and butter" income gives us some finance to then go and buy our expensive semen from the continent, then we are luckier than most people breeding today.

Because breeding is a lottery, diversity is the key because your bread and butters underwrite your specialist breeding programme. If you put all of your eggs in one basket you may end up with unsaleable horses. Who is really going to buy an Irish warmblood that cannot jump or do dressage. You have to consider the wastage - every elite horse you breed is not going to be Nations Cup material and you would need serious finance to support that type of bre ding programme as it is not so easy to dispose of the average ones as everybody expects if they buy a warmblood they are buying potential such has been the success of the marketing machine.

The price of getting a foal on the ground is way more expensive and the potential for losing money is enormous.

I also think that national pride is a factor because after all a Hanoverian or Selle Francais can never claim to be truly French or German because of the introduction of other bloodlines to improve the breed. So why is the term “Irish bred” not acceptable? We already do it with foreign bloodlines that have been born and bred here – we call them Irish Sport Horses because they have not been performance tested or born in their native land.

On the subject of Eventers I think it is blasé to say they are not quite good enough at anything so they do eventing. Eventing is a specialised and the most difficult discipline. It says so much for Irish bred horses that they have the temperament to do a dressage test requiring control, calmness and accuracy when they are fit enough to run the Grand National. They have the heart, courage and stamina to jump across country and then show jump. Nobody will say Eventers are particularly talented at show jumping but they don’t have to be, the jumping effort is to test soundness and stamina and discipline after the cross country phase.

It is no surprise the French are doing so well Eventing, they use similar types to us mostly TB with a bit of native cop on. The modern Hanoverians have more blood than ever before so it’s fairly obvious. We are the number one Eventing studbook because we know how to breed those essential ¾, 7/8 TB s that have taken the world by storm.

I think we need to identify potential show jumping horses at an early age so they can be monitored and then selected for appropriate training. If we had more of a performance test environment, I would not mind betting we would find some superstars we are missing that are currently idling their time away in a field.

I do not disagree with you that we should not be trying new approaches but I think we are missing out a lot due to our inspection and performance monitoring. I keep breeding my bread and butters but because I happen to have a TBxWarmblood mare, I have bred a filly from her using a warmblood stallion who is very good who has the best of continental bloodlines and she will be put to a top class continental when she is three.

PS: Irish lovers – my filly I love to death but she is a bit t.h.i.c.k:)
 
Eothain, I'm not saying that breeders should not try to keep up with Europe in the production of show jumpers and dressage horses, I just don't want breeders to give up breeding the proper Irish horses that we love. The demand for leisure horses is far greater than the demand for top sj and dressage horses. Many people look to Ireland for hunters, eventers and show horses, not just happy hackers and cobs.
 
Hmmmmm I found this thread as I've trying to find out some info on my new additions breeding. Then found this. I think I may have struck gold with this little one. He's just about to turn a year old and I have paid a stupid price for him as he was destined for the meat factory! I paid his meat price so I could give him a new home with me. Everyone is ranting about breeding a load of new horses. My new guy is coming straight from the breeder in very poor condition. The breeder couldn't shift him as no one is buying new horses in Ireland. In a way finding this thread has made me quite sad as lots of people just wanna breed the next crop of foals and try and make the next lot while people can't home the foals they have just bred. Their way of shifting them is to send them to the factories. But on the other hand I'm feeling really quite excited about my new guy now. His grandsire is Cruising. Yay to my little Foalio.
 
The thing that worries me about the eventing side of things, I read the KWPN mag a couple of years back that said they were looking at this area next. It opened me up to how commercial and serious business it is. They didn't recommend going out & using UK & Irish eventing stallions. The Irish/UK horse are up against from the start - they don't have strong studbook promoting them like that. Maybe Ireland does? Are the Dutch flocking to use Jumbo whilst he is still alive? Meanwhile we do half their job for them - use their stallions on our TB mares instead of home based stallions and horses are imported here to the best eventer producing system in the world where the best riders are based and before you know it, their horses or horses by their stallions are the top of eventing rankings.

I do think if something isn't done then ISH might be knocked off the rankings. Ireland maybe in a stronger position than the UK as I hope/think Ireland has great links with event riders etc It has been mentioned before but if you breed succesful Irish eventers with just Irish bloodlines then you have a unique "product" to be sold to everywhere else in the world. You also want those buyers to come back to buy the same again in Ireland and to support that studbook by registering foals in it and using the stallions that go through that studbook system so more & more horses worldwide who compete will have that Irish studbook by their name so when they do well in the rankings the studbook gets more money & recogniton for more promotion. I don't think this can ever be done in the UK because we have so many studbooks, so many microchipping companies etc each working individually for their own wee bit of profit unless BEF performs a miracle, but in Ireland it doesn't seem so bad :)


I don't think breeding eventers is just a happy accident. The best German breeder of eventers is I think the gentleman who bred the Butts horses and I believe he set out to breed eventers & he used TB sires & he was very successful. The German bred top eventer Sam by Stan the Man, I read an article about him recently & I think it said he had been turned down at grading in Germany for being to small or something and gelded. Apologies to all if incorrect the translaton wasn't great but maybe over here he would have been kept as an eventing stallion & been successful. A bit of a ramble sorry :)
 
Grasshorse just for you :) Quote about Voltaire
"he was a horse that no-one wanted! He was a bit small (just 162 cms) and had a problem with one hoof, and he was rejected by the Oldenburg licensing commission"
 
Flash_28 said:
Their way of shifting them is to send them to the factories. But on the other hand I'm feeling really quite excited about my new guy now. His grandsire is Cruising. Yay to my little Foalio.
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I think you will find that horses are still selling in Ireland if Goresbridge and Cavan sales figures are correct and they are improving slightly in price. Quality youngstock will always find a home and while the market may be down it certainly is not out.

There are some welfare issues in Ireland at the moment and the factories are busier. The history of overproduction in relation to the Celtic Tiger is another thread on its own.

I do not know of a single breeder who would send a quality foal to a factory especially if it had good breeding, but stranger things have happened.

I think I speak for all responsible breeders in Ireland who take it on the chin when times are hard but ultimately remain responsible and maintain a duty of care to their stock because it is the right thing to do and we are proud of the quality we produce.

I hope your foal is lucky for you but please do not tarnish the reputation of Irish breeders with generalisations.

Eothain may well be banging your door down for a bit of Cruising blood :)
 
FIRM - I insist you reveal the website where these gems are coming from!

Unless of course - you are a secret warm blood inspector and these snippets are your own notes!! Dish the dirt I am going demented;)
 
Ah ha, I heard that one before!
Jan Greve bought him for pennies. He bought him at the sales, where no one would go near him with his cracked/broken hoof. Well done Jan!
 
Irishlife said:
I think you will find that horses are still selling in Ireland if Goresbridge and Cavan sales figures are correct and they are improving slightly in price. Quality youngstock will always find a home and while the market may be down it certainly is not out.

There are some welfare issues in Ireland at the moment and the factories are busier. The history of overproduction in relation to the Celtic Tiger is another thread on its own.

I do not know of a single breeder who would send a quality foal to a factory especially if it had good breeding, but stranger things have happened.

I think I speak for all responsible breeders in Ireland who take it on the chin when times are hard but ultimately remain responsible and maintain a duty of care to their stock because it is the right thing to do and we are proud of the quality we produce.

I hope your foal is lucky for you but please do not tarnish the reputation of Irish breeders with generalisations.

Eothain may well be banging your door down for a bit of Cruising blood :)
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Sorry for the generalisation as I do realise that there will be many breeders who will do right by their horses. Although I think most people would be suprised at the kind of horses that are going to the factories. There are a lot of companion horses yes or light hackers but there have also been many young horses with amazing breeding. I know I was suprised to find out. I put myself forward for my little guy without knowing his breeding, I just saw his really cute little face and was sold. I was then suprised to find out who his grandsire was! I just hope that things do continue to improve so that there will be less horses facing the factory like my little guy was.
 
Flash_28 said:
I just saw his really cute little face and was sold. I was then suprised to find out who his grandsire was! I just hope that things do continue to improve so that there will be less horses facing the factory like my little guy was.
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I can't resist a cute face myself.

I hope things improve too and I hope your little Cruising does his grandad and you proud. Is he grey by any chance?
 
Irishlife said:
I can't resist a cute face myself.

I hope things improve too and I hope your little Cruising does his grandad and you proud. Is he grey by any chance?
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Unfortunately no he's not grey :( Which is a massive shame as I really love greys! This is the 2nd horse I have now who have grey sires or grandsires and they aren't grey! :( My little Cruising is a bay with 3 little white socks and little star on his head. My mare is by Petong a very nice grey TB but she is very dark chocolatey brown/black.

I was looking at saving up for a grey Holstein but found Foaly. I'm really looking forward to him coming over now :) Shouldn't be too long now!
 
Ok, I just have to chime on a section of this discussion regarding the US market for hunters and happy hackers. The so-called 'huge market' for these types of horses in the US is far from what is being implied from a series of posts I'm reading here. There is in fact a very limited market for those types of horses in the US. The US is in no way similar to the UK or Ireland when you are discussing these types of horses.

Jumper market for Irish horses: yes, Eventer market for Irish horses: yes. Hunter market for Irish horses: no.

US hunters are in no way the type of horse that is being implied here. Hunters in the US are unique to the US. They are extremely fancy and extremely refined. I do not mean 'light' I mean 'refined'. That is: they have fancy attractive bodies and heads, they are clean-legged almost to a fault, they have extremely quiet, easy ways-of-going. They do auto flying changes. They move in big long, low loping strides. They trot with flat knees and big floating gaits. In essence, everything is quiet and invisible and they do it all 'on the buckle' -- that means looping long reins. These are not the types of 'happy hacker/hunters' that are being inferred here. And yes I am well aware of the Irish hunters you are talking about. What I am saying is: they are not the same thing. Most of the ones I have seen--and believe me I am always evaluating what I see--are not refined enough for the US. I would be happy to provide YouTube links to anyone who wishes to view what a US hunter really is.

I have seen at most a handful of Irish-bred horses, most of whom were bred for eventing, that come close to this type of horse. If you have one: great there is a market for your horse in the US as a hunter. If it doesn't fit the description above, then you are out of luck: no market. There are millions of those type of horses that people can pay 2-5k for down the road in US vs. twice as much for shipping and then the purchase price on top of that. Don't get me wrong. I am not in any way belittling Irish horses. They are not however US hunters, nothing wrong with that, its just the way it is. By all means to those people that produce those, have at it. Just don't think that they automatically suit the US market and you can sell it for big money there.

There are vastly few people in the US who are going to pay 10k to ship a horse to US if it is strictly a happy hacker. If you think the market you are in now is competitive, look to the US. The US looks for continental-bred horses for a reason: they fit the market. European sellers know the US market and produce horses that fit that market accordingly, which is why they get the big money for them.

Please be aware when you are talking about markets that what is in the US may not be quite what you think it is.
 
DRSsporthorses said:
Ok, I just have to chime on a section of this discussion regarding the US market for hunters and happy hackers. The so-called 'huge market' for these types of horses in the US is far from what is being implied from a series of posts I'm reading here.
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Thanks for the update on the US market. I wasn't suggesting the US was a mass market for Irish horses if that is how it came across, only that it has been a traditional market in the past for certain types. Agreed only for those horses with exceptional talent that you referred to in your post - the jumpers and eventers would it be worthwhile importing.

I have watched a good few hunter/jumper classes and the manners of these animals are unbelievable as are the courses they are jumping in simple snaffles and cavessons. We could do with a few of those classes here.

Please post the You Tube links - would love to have a look.
 
Interesting about the American hunters. A friend of ours is Huntsman to a large pack over there and he would give his eye teeth for a proper Irish hunt horse, says the American ones just don't cut the mustard or take the work that the proper Irish horses do. He says they look pretty but that's about it as far as he is concerned; he would far rather have something that can do the job with a bit of substance.
 
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