Happy Days For ISH Breeders

Ok, the only reason Grange Bouncer even came up is because of an inside joke between myself and tiny trigger.

TinyTrigger said:
I echo this. While I think that new bloodlines/improvement are always welcome I really hope measures are put in place to preserve the type of ISH's that made Ireland famous. I would really hate to see the ISH become "just" (I don't say that lightly) another type of European WB. We have a speciality.. a niche in the market.. a USP, if you want, and it would be a terrible, terrible, shame to loose it.

Eothain.. Stallions/Lines such as Grange Bouncer should not be lost to purely WB breeding.. ;)
Click to expand...

That post is from the very first page. She stopped posting way back at page 2 of this. Basically, I know her off the forum and she is a huge Grange Bouncer fan. Always talking about how easy they are to sell and work with etc. That's why his name came up in the first place and trust me, if I could go back and edit the wording of my original posts, I would.

I may not breed a mare to him, but if I came across a horse by him at the right price that I could school up and sell on, then I would. The real world has to co-exist with aspirations. I wouldn't be one for cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Having said that, when Cian O'Connor is looking for a replacement for Complete and Rancorrado, I doubt the horse he chooses will be sired by an Irish Draught. The money that is spent on whatever that horse may be will be money spent outside of our country, away from our breeders. Spending like that, in turn leads to over production because breeders like seeing the foal on the ground every year, but would be less inclined to use the better stallions if they can't sell them. So what do they do? Annoyed by the price of the covering fee they spent on the Nations Cup winner they used the year before, they bring their mare to some cheap useless stallion that's local. Geldings with balls I call them.

They have a foal, bring it to Ballinasloe or a fair like it, make a few hundred, super! What happens the foal then? It goes from fair to fair being dragged around like a disobidient dog, getting steadily poorer in condition as it matures. Then we have the welfare case of the horse found dead in an abandoned housing estate or something of the sort.

Basically what I'm saying has been covered in my long post 2 pages ago about creating an improved economic Sport Horse breeding sector. Improve the value of the sector, welfare increases with it, overproduction becomes less of a problem.

... Wow. Somebody joined an internet forum to, for lack of a better term, have a go at me. Wow! I guess there's the proof that this topic is thought provoking
 
Right treading delicately into the thread again.

Twiddling wireless knobs to resume normal service.

I am a great admirer of Clew Bay Bouncer who will hopefully gain his full approval this week, he is a credit to his dad.

I have not heard news yet from Cavan but I am hoping that the full results of the inspections and the scoring/comments will be in a PDF somewhere as I am still undecided on one of my mares and might take a gamble on a newly approved boy.

I do think the new inspection process will bring great improvements to both draughts and sporthorses. We have to call them Class1 Gold, Silver and Bronze now instead of RID and assorted grades in between. I do "get" where some draught breeders are coming from regarding the performance aspect but I think the scope and parameters for merits are wide enough that a stallion who may not be jumping 1.30 can still get Gold merit on his progeny whatever the discipline. Also one thing the draughts have always been good at is supplying information that allows you on paper to "test mate" your bloodlines. There is talk of an online module becoming available which would be fab.

The Young Breeder's Competition in Ireland has been doing "the triangle" and linear scoring of conformation since its inception so it is a good learning ground for young people who want to be involved in breeding and judging.

I still refer back to a previous comment I made insofar as some horse just have "IT" and all the linear scoring and performance testing cannot cater fr that, although we hope our new young stallions have got a bit of wow factor.
 
claps hand to forehead

Bound to end in tears before bedtime - I'll be back to deal with you and your co-conspirator (over the Big Fugly Heads/marketing machine comments, Eothain. :D


Was away at Cavan - the stallions that were provisionally passed have a 2-week wait for blood tests to come back so won't jump the gun just yet by naming names. ;)

Didn't see Clew Bay Bouncer listed either online or in the catalogue IL? However, there was one handsome dapple grey Draught who certainly jumped well and 'met the criteria' on the day. Some Draughts were mediocre jumpers but so also it has to be said were some very well-bred sporthorses, which had all the paper credentials.

What's greatly amusing me is the dapple grey was by .. Grange Bouncer. :)
 
Want to know something ironic? The grey ID stallion by Gortlea Ruler out of the Huntingfield Ruler mare that finished with the top marks was taught to loose jump by ... me!!!

Tears? What tears?

As for the marketing machine comments (I prefer to call it economic viability of the sport horse breeding sector), please don't keep me waiting. I'm looking forward to them. I'm guessing we'll be sparring again soon!!!
 
Eothain Just to keep you v happy Oli T is riding a good Irish grey by Cruising and I am sure H&H or somewhere reported he was at Cavan last year buying horses with someone, including a Cruising colt

Looking forward to hearing the stallion report and could someone pls explain the gold, silver etc grades and what the horses had to do thanks :)
 
Last edited:
Hilly - was looking at wrong catalogue - Duh!!!! Clew Bay Bouncer - nice chap.

Spent the evening taking little TB to the "stallion down the road" LOL who happens to be a Class 1 Connemara called Drymills Bridge Boy who is big upstanding and looks like an Andalusian he is so fab. Decided to breed teenagers dream machine/working hunter/SHP instead of a sportster or ID X from her this time.
Back to cover again on Saturday so fingers crossed. As is usual spent ages looking at different stallions/colts youngstock etc yakking and gossiping but also looking at the most fabulous stallion-in-waiting a 2yo Crosstown Dancer who seems to have what it takes, he was very impressive so look forward to seeing him at inspections next time.

A neighbours ID stallion got a Class 2 at Cavan, he told me so they are not too impressed and said they thought the loose jumping was a bit too intense reckoned the horse had to go down the lane nine times but I think they are just so disappointed. Didn't give any clues as to why he did not pass.

Firm

http://www.horsesportireland.ie/hsi-publications.102.html

This link will take you to excerpts from the new inspection process and how the gold silver bronze categories are defined. Also the new breeding policy for the Irish Draught is there too.
 
hilly said:
claps hand to forehead

Bound to end in tears before bedtime - I'll be back to deal with you and your co-conspirator (over the Big Fugly Heads/marketing machine comments, Eothain. :D


Was away at Cavan - the stallions that were provisionally passed have a 2-week wait for blood tests to come back so won't jump the gun just yet by naming names. ;)

Didn't see Clew Bay Bouncer listed either online or in the catalogue IL? However, there was one handsome dapple grey Draught who certainly jumped well and 'met the criteria' on the day. Some Draughts were mediocre jumpers but so also it has to be said were some very well-bred sporthorses, which had all the paper credentials.

What's greatly amusing me is the dapple grey was by .. Grange Bouncer. :)
Click to expand...


Hi hilly - That was Killinick Bouncer that passed. Here he is from the H & H artilcle and I am trying to find pictures of him online at the young eventers....http://webpages.charter.net/stickyback/Killinick%20Bouncer.jpg
 
Hello everybody I have beeen following this thread with great interestand thought I'd finally post my two cents! This is alo my first foray into forum-ness so here goes!
I have to agree with Eothain that the ISH does need some outside blood. The fact of the matter is we are simply not achieving what we need to and we can't live on past glorys anymore.
I do think that we need to be very very selective over what we allow to be let in. There is a glut of uproven, second-rate foreign blood being jumped on by undiscerning Irish breeders for the past few years and I believe we need to be waaay more selective. In my opinion the Selle Francais is the best option for outside blood as they are number 1 in the showjumping studbook rankings, have a brain and similar levels of blood as the Irish horse and seem to suit the Irish mare (see Touchdown and Harlequin Du Carel).
I do, however believe we need to treasure and preserve our 'bread and butter' types. There is still a market for these (just about!) but their quality has dramatically fallen during boom times.
Crossing the country I see far far too many big headed, weak necked, croup high 'fugly' things born out of no fault of their own. The lure of the commercially 'fashionable' stallion has wreacked havoc amongst our treasured asset and instead of taking their mares to a stallion that suits them, these mares are being taken to a name (see huntingfield rebel) that does not suit their type. This has to stop. I would never take one of my mares to a stallion that didn't suit them no matter how 'hot' he was. And you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear either...
On the eventing side, I have to say it is certainly not a happy accident the ISH studbook has topped the rankings for the last 14 years but I think our hold on that title is becoming ever more tenuous with every passing year. Those good, strong TB stallions that founded our success are not being replaced. I find it hard to spot a good old fashioned strong NH Tb stallion available to the sporthorse sector, only a lot of light failed sprinter types, unsuitable in my opinion both tempermentally and physically for eventing.
I would hate to see the Irish horse lose it's brain-it is one of the if not it's greatest asset. My young ones spend part of their lives on rough old scrub and have to cross ditches, drains, wet and rocky land daily. This has to contribute to their surefooted brainyness as mine will cross any country over any going!! The cotton wool wrapping of generations of warmbloods has to have had an effect on their ability to handle ground and life in gereral-although I'm loathe to say it I bred one absolutely brainless ISH-not a drop of foreigh blood in him-but he was the exception not the rule bless him. (He's now eventing in England they constantly surprise you!).
Finally, good luck in your future take over of the IHB Eothain-you have my vote!!
 
Concur with a lot of what you said and won't go into repetition mode as I have said it all from my perspective in earlier posts.

Selle Francais - agree.

Breeding became a hobby during the now deceased tiger for people who did not know much about horses let alone breeding. A lot of stallion owners and dealers took advantage and covered and sold poor stock to a lot of people for inflated prices, charging inflated covering fees producing a lot of the scrubs that are seen around the place. Completely indiscriminate.

Lacking the right type of TB - Agreed, so much more could be done to improve the mare pool with stallions of the old NH stamp. Too many people "buy the dream" and do not realise the mare is the most important pat of the equation.

Hardiness and soundness, both traits inherent in most Irish horses. This will get bred out with the randomness of crosses that have happened of late. Most foreign studbooks have identified inherited unsoundness traits in their studbooks (eg predisposition to navicular). There is not enough data or consistency to do this for the ISH.

So there is Eothain's route, the Warmblood Stud Books route and the Irish horse route - Interesting times.
 
i agree with you the sf is in my opinion the best foreign bred out there however everystudbook can't be filled with superstars not every horse in the irish studbook is cruising so when some of you talk about dum blood's you could only be talk about the dirt the foreign stud books didn't want
 
DKL - yes, that's the one and took his pic to add to my archives. But please, no Photoshopped pics of Draughts allegedly jumping obstacles - Draughts can't jump. ;)

Make my day by telling me that Killinick Rebel is by the other 'maligned' Draught, Huntingfield Rebel?

All jesting aside, Jack Lambert has forgotten more about Irish horses than most will ever learn. He and another very similar gentleman, Sam Barr, should be cloned.

Irishlife - phew, if it wasn't puzzling enough to see pictures of Draughts allegedly jumping then to wonder why CBB would have to return for further auditions after he was fully approved last year under the old system. There's enough bewilderment in this entire thread without you and DKL adding to it. :D

Although the new-look inspections will take time for breeders to become accustomed to, feel they are an improvement. While it might sting to hear your hometown Swan is perhaps more Gander material, between the giant scoreboard and comments read out by the relevant chairperson of either Draught or Sporthorse panel it was made very evident on the day how and where horses failed to meet the required points.

Perhaps the neighbours could ask for a copy of their boy's scores/comments instead?

The stallion down the road? Off to the Tower with you .. :D Or else a night's penance at the EarnestBreedersR'Us convention? As I too have similarly sinned, I shall keep you a seat down the back and bring a couple of HellOk! magazines as back-up entertainment. If I keep the volume down, we can also watch Hickstead Derby - The Kilbaha Years on my DVD thingy.

Firm, that would be the Rolex-bound Ashdale Cruise Master. And Team Oli did indeed buy a number of foals and was interested in buying a certain Irish stallion. Not a Draught. ( :eek: heresy) Not a warmblood. A Thoroughbred.

Eothain. Spar? I'm too bewildered to spar with you :confused: and confess to giving up several pages back trying to follow the latest Cumano/Cougar/Cruising/Puissance preferences. :D And now you're like a 3yo caught up in a lungerein trying to unwind the Irish Draught remarks, least said, soonest mended. ;)

Actually it was Ballyshan who made the Fugly heads/marketing machine comments that I intended to respond to. But it shall have to wait! We are off to the World Cup final shortly with several Swiss Rolls (Centra ones, not Spar) as a bribe, I mean, present, to entice Nelson Pessoa out of retirement with. We in the BBC Syndicate intend to source an Irish Draught stallion for the great Brazilian to campaign but fret not, your masterly training skills have been duly noted and should our Draught also require pre-training prior, we may call on you. :D

(Alec, I do have a more serious reply on the 'future' to post and will do so as soon as the demands of looking at photoshopped jumping Draughts and Googling the location of all Spar shops in Co Offaly for Eothain to entertain himself in, allow. :) )
 
hilly you crack me up. Here is another ID Bouncer stud jumping with Jack's daughter Clare http://webpages.charter.net/stickyback/Clare%20Lambert%20on%204%20yearold%20ID%20colt%20Killinick%20Trump.jpg

Jack is amazing and his daughters are equally talented in the horse industry . His son over here in the states (my husband) used to ride/race (point to points) but now does "leisure riding" as defined by Eothain a couple pages back. We just imported a GB baby over. The yanks eat the Irish horses up if I don't say so myself! The ISH's are very 'in' right now.

Yup Killinick Rebel is by Huntingfield Rebel...I can just see Eothain eye's rolling...;) Just having some fun with you and enjoying reading this thread.
 
Hilly

I will bring the bag of bon bons for us to chew on whilst watching the Hickstead Derby re runs in Earnest Breeders r us purgatory.

And excuse you if there is any luring out of retirement to be done regarding Nelson Pessoa I am coming too. I think I could have an "edge" on account of having gazed adoringly into his eyes backstage at HOYS as a gawky pony rider, while getting his autograph (he has a very Latino flourish!). I have retained a "soft spot" down the years and Rodrigo not bad either if a bit more girly than dad. Yes if anyone can put IDs back on the map it is Nelson. I would say he would be honoured. There again this is the man who thought Baloubet de Rouet was rubbish first time he saw him jump.

The neighbours won't reveal the points so will have to resort to subterfuge!!!!
 
Says quietly Guess what, I'm using the stallion down the road this year too:eek: Going to use Primo Pageant on a couple of good TB mares and try to breed that illusive HIS type colt.

Got all the Billy stallions next door too but can't do the warmblood thing out of principle!!;)

Irishlife I would be interested too hear more on the Crosstown Dancer colt.

Simon:)
 
Whispering not so quietly. The beautiful Primo Pageant used to stand "down the road" from me in Irish mile terms. I have seen some terrific stock by him.
Very good horse.

Will gather more info and a picture of the Crosstown Dancer, He is the most delicious, dark almost smokey liver chestnut, fabulous bone and a very straight mover. His temperament is impeccable. He is in the rough out at grass at the moment but will scrub up well.
 
MFH9 said:
PP and Bea, mmmnnnnnn, that would be nice:D;)
Click to expand...

Irishlife said:
Whispering not so quietly. The beautiful Primo Pageant used to stand "down the road" from me in Irish mile terms. I have seen some terrific stock by him.
Very good horse.

Will gather more info and a picture of the Crosstown Dancer, He is the most delicious, dark almost smokey liver chestnut, fabulous bone and a very straight mover. His temperament is impeccable. He is in the rough out at grass at the moment but will scrub up well.
Click to expand...

Sarah can spot a Crosstown from 100ft!
 
Ok, literally about to run out the door so this'll be quick.

Why have I all of a sudden seemed to have been turned into the "bad guy" of the thread? I'm not trying to unwind any remarks I made. I stand over what I said. I very much doubt that we will see Olympic level showjumpers sired by Irish Draughts in the middle to near future. I see no point in having an opinion and not expressing it where it's relevant. Once again, I am not trying to unwind any comments.

Cumano/Cougar/Cruising/Puissance preferances? All I'm saying, is that I think by crossing a warmblood stallion of merit to a good quality mare, getting a filly and crossing that back to another good warmblood we will get the quality fillies we need to make the best use of the good younger jumping stallions that I keep naming, Cara Touche, Samjemgee, Oldtown KC, Cruisings MF, Ringfort Cruise and the eventual young stallions by the likes of Puissance, Errigal Flight, Coevers Diamond, Clover Brigade. In my honest opinion, for what it's worth, although anything I seem to have said is just being ridiculed, we will create a better gene pool from which our showjumpers will re-emerge as the best in the world.
 
Don't worry. Didn't take it up as being bitchy. ... Who said I was going drinking? That stuff is bad for you!

Samjemgee is an 8 year old stallion by the Belgian warmblood Ramiro B out of Flex. Making him a half brother of Flexible and Flexing. He won the 7 Year Old class in Dublin last year and has placed in the Chippison Spring Grand Prix Tour. Approved in 2009

Oldtown KC is ridden by Trevor Breen and is by Cruising out of the 1.50 Winning Mare, Oldtown Katie by Clover Fields. He's just a 6 year old I think. Also approved in 2009.

Interestingly enough, these are the last 2 ISH stallions approved under the old scheme
 
well with young ish's like them coming up and irish draught's like classic vision and coille mor hill and tb's like watermill swatch do we not have the raw materials to build a good studbook
 
I just wanted to say, like many others I've found this thread fascinating. Even down to learning about american hunters!!

I've just started breeding ( you have to start somewhere I guess!!) and am waiting for my second foal. I've one warmblood mare (german) and my second mare( who was my first ever foal) is out of Irish tb dam and warmblood sire. I did lots of umming and ahhing about stallions. I did think about Oldtown KC and Carmina Z but have opted for warmblood stallions for both my mares.

I'm a Brit living now in Ireland and this thread has certainly got me thinking about irish blood lines! Lots of food for thought when it comes to looking for stallions next year!

Thanks guys! Keep all the info/disscussion coming it makes great reading! :)
 
rebel mountain said:
well with young ish's like them coming up and irish draught's like classic vision and coille mor hill and tb's like watermill swatch do we not have the raw materials to build a good studbook
Click to expand...

In my opinion, we run a big risk of squandering them by having a poorer quality mare population. If they were crossed with a better mare, then they might set the country alight. That's where the Ars Vivendi's, the Cornet Obolensky's, the Luidam's, Heritage Fortunus's, Mermus R's and Condios's come into plan. Quality foreign lines should be used to hopefully make the mare herd superior than what it is.
 
Simsar said:
Says quietly Guess what, I'm using the stallion down the road this year too:eek: Going to use Primo Pageant on a couple of good TB mares and try to breed that illusive HIS type colt.

Got all the Billy stallions next door too but can't do the warmblood thing out of principle!!;)

Irishlife I would be interested too hear more on the Crosstown Dancer colt.

Simon:)
Click to expand...

LOL - nothing wrong with using 'the stallion down the road'....if you happen to live on the right road!
 
Ive been looking at old footage recently of Irish showjumpers. Exciting stuff! But how would they compete today? Answer, they would'nt stand a chance! I was talking to a friend recently and he said when they started raising the height of the fences in the late 80s early 90s, alot of the Irish horses couldn't do it. He said that Rocbarton " wouldn't even look at them" It was then he realized that the Irish Draught had no place in the breeding of showjumpers. A forward thinker!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top