Happy Days For ISH Breeders

[amjo]

Under the new system, stallions approved on the IHR can have their approval taken away if they're not up to the job of producing proper top class horses. Fair play to Alison Corbally, she's put heart and soul in to her job and has moved the whole breeding policy forward. She has met with staunch opposition from those stuck-in-1975-Irish Draught breeders but has stuck to her guns and hopefully we will see positive results. The traffic light system is actually quite good. Simple but good. Don't write it off just yet. There was no bigger critic of it than me at the start but it has since won me over.

As for the 'good irish names', well with the exception of a small few stallions, including the best of all time in Cruising, Ireland hasn't produced any top class stallions, now we have access to better quality stallions, we can be competitive again. No one bats an eeyelid when a French thoroughbred is used, so what's wrong with using a French sport horse? Nothing!

Finally someone talking sense, but I am still not too convinced about new HSI stallion approval system. Same people doing the job up there, things are not going to change a lot. The '1975 crew' still have big say!. Of course we need to use better horses, which happen to not be Irish, we have hardly any decent Irish stallions since Cruising. But the biggest problem in Ireland is the lack of knowledge regarding the other breeds. They think if the stallions stand in another country then it must be good.. lot of ****.. Plenty good stallions now standing in Ireland, and plenty useless stallions standing in all countries, incl ireland. Breeders just need to to know which is which!!

 

[Eothain]

Hello everybody I have beeen following this thread with great interestand thought I'd finally post my two cents! This is alo my first foray into forum-ness so here goes!
I have to agree with Eothain that the ISH does need some outside blood. The fact of the matter is we are simply not achieving what we need to and we can't live on past glorys anymore.
I do think that we need to be very very selective over what we allow to be let in. There is a glut of uproven, second-rate foreign blood being jumped on by undiscerning Irish breeders for the past few years and I believe we need to be waaay more selective. In my opinion the Selle Francais is the best option for outside blood as they are number 1 in the showjumping studbook rankings, have a brain and similar levels of blood as the Irish horse and seem to suit the Irish mare (see Touchdown and Harlequin Du Carel).
I do, however believe we need to treasure and preserve our 'bread and butter' types. There is still a market for these (just about!) but their quality has dramatically fallen during boom times.
Crossing the country I see far far too many big headed, weak necked, croup high 'fugly' things born out of no fault of their own. The lure of the commercially 'fashionable' stallion has wreacked havoc amongst our treasured asset and instead of taking their mares to a stallion that suits them, these mares are being taken to a name (see huntingfield rebel) that does not suit their type. This has to stop. I would never take one of my mares to a stallion that didn't suit them no matter how 'hot' he was. And you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear either...
On the eventing side, I have to say it is certainly not a happy accident the ISH studbook has topped the rankings for the last 14 years but I think our hold on that title is becoming ever more tenuous with every passing year. Those good, strong TB stallions that founded our success are not being replaced. I find it hard to spot a good old fashioned strong NH Tb stallion available to the sporthorse sector, only a lot of light failed sprinter types, unsuitable in my opinion both tempermentally and physically for eventing.
I would hate to see the Irish horse lose it's brain-it is one of the if not it's greatest asset. My young ones spend part of their lives on rough old scrub and have to cross ditches, drains, wet and rocky land daily. This has to contribute to their surefooted brainyness as mine will cross any country over any going!! The cotton wool wrapping of generations of warmbloods has to have had an effect on their ability to handle ground and life in gereral-although I'm loathe to say it I bred one absolutely brainless ISH-not a drop of foreigh blood in him-but he was the exception not the rule bless him. (He's now eventing in England they constantly surprise you!).
Finally, good luck in your future take over of the IHB Eothain-you have my vote!!

Welcome! Good to see a Longford representitive on the forum. Longford, the place that gave us Rincoola Abu, Will Wimble, Cara Touche and the one they call, the Maestro; Eddie Macken! How many Irish bred horses has Mr Macken ridden in recent years? I dare say none since Cruising himself! And he didn't ride too many Irish horses in the years coming up to his acquisition of Cruising either! He had a bunch of Belgian horses with truly awful names!!!
As for taking over the IHB, we'll see about that. Have ran twice. Will go again next year. It's my final chance to be the youngest person elected to the board. Tristan Kingston holds the record at 26. I'll be 24.
I don't think Ireland's hold over the Eventing rankings has altogether been an accident but I do think that it wasn't entirely by design either.

So there is Eothain's route, the Warmblood Stud Books route and the Irish horse route - Interesting times.

Didn't see this. Managed to glance over it somehow!!! Why thank you! I'm like a studbook all on my own. (For the record, what exactly is my route?)
Let's not forget to put the SIES in to the equation too. I can see a decent take up of their studbook. There's so many people who have been annoyed by the HSI/IHB.
I'd say there'll be a bigger take up of them than the WSI because the WSI requires a more disciplined approach. Therein lies the weakness of WSI becoming a massive studbook. Irish people can't do discipline.

Yeah but our road is Billy Stud horses!! Want to live in Ireland or Newmarket!!!!!

Want to swap? I'd love to have Billy Congo down the road!

Ive been looking at old footage recently of Irish showjumpers. Exciting stuff! But how would they compete today? Answer, they would'nt stand a chance! I was talking to a friend recently and he said when they started raising the height of the fences in the late 80s early 90s, alot of the Irish horses couldn't do it. He said that Rocbarton " wouldn't even look at them" It was then he realized that the Irish Draught had no place in the breeding of showjumpers. A forward thinker!

Run! Hide! When people see what you have said, they'll want blood, they'll want to burn you at the stake! Run!

 

[AddyKan]

Hi Eothain,
Does the SIES have a website? I had a search but couldn't come up with anything?

 

[Simsar]

Eothain there at the end of our drive and ride him through quite regularly, nice looking horse but still a WARMBLOOD (or as William told Sarah a High-bred).

Grasshorse run for the hills were all coming for you with our pitch forks!!

 

[GrassHorse]

The Irish draught is backed under the cart! Im ready to hit the road!

 

[firm]

LOL Grasshorse
What about this Irish horse from the 90's? You don't think he could win today?
What was his breeding, was he by Coevers? and did he have any sisters/family go on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JljBBBiMqcw

I even heard people not from Ireland say he was one of the best SJs ever!

 

[GrassHorse]

Wow! thanks for the link. I really enjoyed that!
Thats the kind of horse we should be breeding. He would be able to compete today. But he was by Coevers? Coevers was a great TB stallion!. Tell me about the relations of this horse?

 

[Irishlife]

A typical flukey quirky Irish horse and don't we love them!

He was by Coevers out of an Irish mare with only the sire of the dam known another TB called JAB. Would not mind betting the mare's damline was draught or half bred. Maybe someone else will know.

A difficult ride would pretty much jump you off with that hindquarter action, but then Peppermill has a tendency to jump you off with the power he has too so his connections say.

 

[Irishlife]

Eothain

By your route I meant breeding out to get the right foundation mares first before breeding back to the Irish superstar young stallions. Which is exactly what I have done with one mare (although I will never abandon my Irish horses). I have the filly I want who I hope will breed performers but I am not convinced that breeding back to Irish stallions would improve or reduce the chances of the offspring overall. I have time enough to ponder it anyway and also monitor some of these bright young stallion hopes.

I am a little bit perplexed by all the different stud books emerging. I think it sums it up when you said we do not have the discipline for the rigidity of WSI. Therefore by definition does it not mean we will go to the studbook that will have us? Likely IHR? There is a bit of lemming mentality and the Irish Draught society split as not helped one bit. Rumours are now abounding that if the passport does not have the IHR horseshoe stamp - it isn't a draught. Flipping heck its all gone to hell in a handcart and that is before we touch on the horses themselves! Will the IHR end up as a dumping ground for the stallions that could not pass in SEIS or WSI?

The market potential is greater for stallion owners with SEIS and after all it is within the spirit of the EU to have a Euro studbook.

The new studbooks mean we have more choice when it comes to choosing stallions so will the Irish horse become ever more diluted?

A lot of good work has been done by the IHR and just as they are getting with the programme, there are different options.

I do not know how the panel of inspectors was made up, but I think it would be helpful if it were multi national as sporthorse wise there is quite a bit of difference between "type" depending on warmblood, TB etc so a good TB man or woman may not be so hot on a warmblood. We can all spot a good horse at 100 paces but there are intrinsic differences between "types" so I would say you need subject matter experts with pretty broad knowledge.

I do not know who was on the panel for inspections, but they are every bit as important and influential as the new testing model. How were they appointed to the panel, what are their qualifications to be there.

Only asking...... but have booked a spot on the last Irish Draught and wagon out of town if heretic comment has been made

 

[hilly]

hilly you crack me up. Here is another ID Bouncer stud jumping with Jack's daughter Clare http://webpages.charter.net/stickyback/Clare%20Lambert%20on%204%20yearold%20ID%20colt%20Killinick%20Trump.jpg

Jack is amazing and his daughters are equally talented in the horse industry . His son over here in the states (my husband) used to ride/race (point to points) but now does "leisure riding" as defined by Eothain a couple pages back. We just imported a GB baby over. The yanks eat the Irish horses up if I don't say so myself! The ISH's are very 'in' right now.

Yup Killinick Rebel is by Huntingfield Rebel...I can just see Eothain eye's rolling... Just having some fun with you and enjoying reading this thread.

Another fake photo. Admit it, the chestnut is really just popping an 18" cross-pole on the way back to the end of the ride at the local riding school. NOT that there is anything wrong with such a career - "a job for every horse".

And you've Photoshopped one of the best young event horse producers into the pic too, 10/10. Good to hear more 'on the spot' feedback about Irish horse's popularity in the States, there seems to be some sort of converse law that the further owners are away from this island, the more they think of their Irish 'souvenir'.

Have also dealt with the US show vs field hunter issue in a reply to Alec, which now needs tweaking after the events of the past week.

Hilly

I will bring the bag of bon bons for us to chew on whilst watching the Hickstead Derby re runs in Earnest Breeders r us purgatory.

And excuse you if there is any luring out of retirement to be done regarding Nelson Pessoa I am coming too. I think I could have an "edge" on account of having gazed adoringly into his eyes backstage at HOYS as a gawky pony rider, while getting his autograph (he has a very Latino flourish!). I have retained a "soft spot" down the years and Rodrigo not bad either if a bit more girly than dad. Yes if anyone can put IDs back on the map it is Nelson. I would say he would be honoured. There again this is the man who thought Baloubet de Rouet was rubbish first time he saw him jump.

The neighbours won't reveal the points so will have to resort to subterfuge!!!!

Lemon or strawberry bonbons? If it's going to be one of those all-night 'change the horse world' sessions, best to pack a couple of flasks too - both hip and Thermos.

Alas, plans for the Geneva trip turned to smoke (ashes). Having abandoned Dublin airport, we joined the exodus to Rosslare where we have now left a base camp for the Badminton trip so should be top of the ferry queue in 2 weeks time.

That's the beauty of shop-bought Swiss Rolls, full of longevity like the Irish horse. And Nelson himself. He and 'Rio' - poster boys for the 2016 Olympics in his hometown - priceless publicity.

Was it not his young colt, Rodrigo, though that turned down B de R in the beginning?

Subterfuge? Nay, surely not.

Why have I all of a sudden seemed to have been turned into the "bad guy" of the thread? I'm not trying to unwind any remarks I made. I stand over what I said. I very much doubt that we will see Olympic level showjumpers sired by Irish Draughts in the middle to near future. I see no point in having an opinion and not expressing it where it's relevant. Once again, I am not trying to unwind any comments.

Cumano/Cougar/Cruising/Puissance preferances? All I'm saying, is that I think by crossing a warmblood stallion of merit to a good quality mare, getting a filly and crossing that back to another good warmblood we will get the quality fillies we need to make the best use of the good younger jumping stallions that I keep naming, Cara Touche, Samjemgee, Oldtown KC, Cruisings MF, Ringfort Cruise and the eventual young stallions by the likes of Puissance, Errigal Flight, Coevers Diamond, Clover Brigade. In my honest opinion, for what it's worth, although anything I seem to have said is just being ridiculed, we will create a better gene pool from which our showjumpers will re-emerge as the best in the world.

It's not so much your opinions but the manner in which they're said that can come across a continual put-down of Draughts, non-showjumpers and bread & butter type horses. And that has caused ripples. No-one has seriously suggested that a Draught stallion is going to be the next saviour for breeders whose sole goal is to breed showjumpers and only showjumpers. But they still play a role in the general sport horse market.

Your breeding plan is fine in principle but as it changed from Cumano to Cougar to Watermill Swatch to Puissance etc as possible covering sires from page to page, I lost track of which stallions are on the list. It's going to take years, nay ..decades and several equine generations, to emulate what the Europeans have done so good luck to you, and any other breeders, going down that road.

One of the most telling comments at the Cavan inspections was from a Well-known Breeder, whose equine family have featured heavily in this post. "I wish I could start all over again" "But you've done so much" "Yes, but it took me five generations to do it!".

And in five generations time from now, where will either showjumping or eventing be in approximately 2060? That's for the Alec post.

Sadly, another of the old boys is gone from your list, Eothain, with the death of Errigal Flight.

 

[hilly]

well with young ish's like them coming up and irish draught's like classic vision and coille mor hill and tb's like watermill swatch do we not have the raw materials to build a good studbook

There were two Classic Vision stallions up for inspection last week, neither made the grade. Likewise, with Coille Mor Hill, apart from one of Marion Hughes' horses, hasn't featured in too many pedigrees of recent performers. Watermill Swatch - super young stallion but will be at least 2 years before we see the first of his progeny under saddle. He will definitely add refinement which is badly needed in the Irish mare herd and there will always be a place for such a refining influence to mix n'match with performance and substance. Even the KWPN and Selle Francais still look for the occasional TB but where to find these sires? Only 3 presented at Cavan, of which two were provisionally accepted.

Happy days? More like Confused Days ..

 

[hilly]

Eothain

I am a little bit perplexed by all the different stud books emerging. I think it sums it up when you said we do not have the discipline for the rigidity of WSI. Therefore by definition does it not mean we will go to the studbook that will have us? Likely IHR? There is a bit of lemming mentality and the Irish Draught society split as not helped one bit. Rumours are now abounding that if the passport does not have the IHR horseshoe stamp - it isn't a draught. Flipping heck its all gone to hell in a handcart and that is before we touch on the horses themselves! Will the IHR end up as a dumping ground for the stallions that could not pass in SEIS or WSI?

The market potential is greater for stallion owners with SEIS and after all it is within the spirit of the EU to have a Euro studbook.

The new studbooks mean we have more choice when it comes to choosing stallions so will the Irish horse become ever more diluted?

A lot of good work has been done by the IHR and just as they are getting with the programme, there are different options.

I do not know how the panel of inspectors was made up, but I think it would be helpful if it were multi national as sporthorse wise there is quite a bit of difference between "type" depending on warmblood, TB etc so a good TB man or woman may not be so hot on a warmblood. We can all spot a good horse at 100 paces but there are intrinsic differences between "types" so I would say you need subject matter experts with pretty broad knowledge.

I do not know who was on the panel for inspections, but they are every bit as important and influential as the new testing model. How were they appointed to the panel, what are their qualifications to be there.

Only asking...... but have booked a spot on the last Irish Draught and wagon out of town if heretic comment has been made

The Irish Draught Civil War is a disgrace. Have a good grasp of the split having followed it since 2006 - more bon-bons, please - meetings, AGMs, EGMs and it is such a pity to see the Society come to this. If there had been more pro-active intervention at the very beginning, I wonder would it have?

I don't see the IHB becoming a dumping ground because, while I have the provisional figures and from what I saw at Cavan, the inspectors were strict about what got through. I see another development in the future: that stallion owners simply won't bring their horses out at all and will just 'hang out a shingle', advertise them for cheap fees and foals, by such stallions will get generic white passports. Cost is the big issue at the moment and even before the inspections began, one owner of a beautifully-bred 'designer foal' estimated that from his test-tube days to gaining full approval at 8 years of age will cost six figures.

That is a LOT to win back in stud fees. And that is one very special horse. So I can't quite see the 'average' stallion owner being prepared to go to those lengths for a Joe Soap stallion. Best case scenario, owners of 3yos will present them for inspection and decide from that day's decision whether to continue on with their quest.

Anyhow, regarding the inspectors. Applications for the panel were advertised - anyone who wanted to could have applied.

Here's the panel at this year's inspections:

Sporthorse - Col. Ned Campion, Lt Col. Ronnie McMahon, Maurice Coleman, Jack Doyle, Dr Charlotte Moore, Alastair Pim and Philip Scott.

Irish Draught - George Chapman, Michael Kirwan, Dr Charlotte Moore, Denis Dullea, Gillian Black, Michael Ryan, John Butler and Padraig Fitzpatrick.

Each panel judged 'their' horse from start to finish throughout the day. Someone mentioned about the 1975 era. Surely you would prefer the likes of Ned Campion who has walked the talk and is highly respected, to someone who left college five years ago? There is another on that sporthorse panel whose knowledge of conformation and correct movement is stellar while you also have the likes of Jack Doyle.

I think HSI - and I am the first with constructive criticism at times - are in a no-win situation. If they don't move forward, they're backward and if they do, they're keeping up with the European Joneses!

I also think part of the 'problem' is the Irish anti-establishment psyche. You cannot TELL an Irish breeder what to do, you can coax with grants and premiums but gently does it easing in a new system. I will certainly give the new system the benefit of the doubt for the next couple of years, as with any new studbook or development, but it will have to be seen to deliver.

Maybe it's part of that anti-establishment mode but is there also huge apathy amongst Irish breeders? Apart from the stallion's 'connections' I counted no more than 20/30 interested onlookers at Cavan; superb facilities albeit during one of the nicest spells of recent weather and held in daytime midweek. Hold it at the weekend combined with the annual stallion parade = much better option.

It's the same at the AGM or elections; same handful of reliables. I was genuinely excited by last year's elections as there was some fantastic candidates such as Peter Leonard and Barry O'Connor who both have their finger on the pulse when it comes to buying and selling top horses, from Ringwood Cockatoo to Rivaal. Neither got elected. But I would have loved to have seen what either/both would have brought to the table. Again, was it apathy?

Anyhow, just to sketch in the background to the stallion inspection panel, plus some further thoughts. Sun is shining, even through the ash, time to go check blooming broodies.

P.S: What? you're ALL jumping on the Irish Draught bandwagon now..

 

[Eothain]

Regards me changing stallions here and there, that's the beauty of having 4 mares! I'd use Cumano on my pride and joy Duca Di Busted mare this year but well, am kinda broke so use Puissance this year. Am going to do something commercial this year and sell some of the foals in Goresbridge!!! Even though my Father would have me exorcised for trying to make money in such a way!!!! That way I'll hopefully be able to afford Cumano next year for her Cabdulla Du Tillard for her Classic Vision daughter. She also has a yearling Clover Flush daughter that will never compete due to breaking her leg last year so she'll be getting bred from at 3. That'll be 5 mares then. I should get through my list fairly quickly then!

Errigal Flight is dead? I can't believe it. I actually felt a lump in my throat when I read that. A legend in his own lifetime has passed on and NO stallion sons to continue his Legacy. He had 3 horses in the 100 horse Grand Prix in Coilog yesterday. Ireland is poorer for his loss.

More to say, will be back later. Horses to ride now

 

[Irishlife]

I did not see the panel list before the inspections. Certainly, there are people there who I hold in highest esteem and some of them are thoroughly nice friendly, helpful people too. Ned Campion is fab as is George Chapman and give a lot of time to advancing young people's knowledge too. I am so disappointed I could not go but next year I think it should be a proper festival and I will be booking my camping ticket and seat in the gallery ahead of time.

I think a nice Martini for Pessoa watching and we should retain strawberry bon bons for serious debate and the zesty lemon ones for lighter topics such as sniggering over ID photoshopped pictures.

Terribly sad about Errigal Flight, I have some horses with his breeding.

I am so excited to see the results and will look forward to seeing how it progresses. I am quite unnerved Hilly by what you said about the potential for stallions to become "backyard breeding" if they get knocked out of the process at three and decisions are made not to progress in the process.

 

[Alec Swan]

hilly,

lord above, so much to debate! Your penultimate paragraph, in your last post but one, answered my question, but with another question! You're not actually helping me, at the moment!

In the event that none of the old school can see a way forward, then I would suggest that the instigator of this thread may very well be right.

One question for the traditionalists; that all breeds of horses have evolved, will be obvious, but have they stopped evolving, and if they have, then should they have done so?

I would also, with the greatest respect, point out that the myriad of suggested stallions are entirely valid offerings, though I accept that the sheer volume of them is confusing, at best. The owner of one mare will seek out the ideal stallion. The owner of five, or more mares, will need to expand their search to encompass those horses which will suit each individual mare. That the mare is of vital importance, is not in question, but then so is the horse to whom she's put. That, I would suggest, is the need for such a variety of stallions.

I would also suggest that for Ireland to have, say half a dozen top class stallions, really isn't good enough. Of course Ireland produces some very good horses, but if you consider the number of horses, in your home land, per capita, then you really should be producing more. The equine knowledge which is contained within Ireland, is staggering, but of little use if it becomes bogged down in "tradition", just for the sake of it.

Eothain, others have sat in judgement of you, and all that I would say to you is that, perhaps if you'd been a little more circumspect, then you may not have ruffled quite so many feathers. I am 40 years your elder, and I've been as abrasive as you have been, on occasions, for all the good that it's done me!

I, and I'm sure that I'm not alone, would consider that your search, outside of what is literally before you, would be entirely correct. If the Continental stallions can be used to improve the Irish mare herd, then that must surely be the way to go.

Despite your tender years, your reference library of breeding is quite remarkable, and that is not a patronising remark. I would be more than happy to be proved wrong, but the ID/TB mare, put back to a TB, has had its day, perhaps. It worked 30 years ago, but now? The odd one will come through, it's just that there seems to be no consistency. There needs to be a serious introduction of foreign blood, in my view, but only because there simply aren't enough top class stallions, or importantly the equivalent mares, standing in Ireland.

Debate I've decided, gives me the chance to think and consider my entrenched views. With help, I will continue to do so!

Alec.

 

[hilly]

I did not see the panel list before the inspections. Certainly, there are people there who I hold in highest esteem and some of them are thoroughly nice friendly, helpful people too. Ned Campion is fab as is George Chapman and give a lot of time to advancing young people's knowledge too. I am so disappointed I could not go but next year I think it should be a proper festival and I will be booking my camping ticket and seat in the gallery ahead of time.

I think a nice Martini for Pessoa watching and we should retain strawberry bon bons for serious debate and the zesty lemon ones for lighter topics such as sniggering over ID photoshopped pictures.

Terribly sad about Errigal Flight, I have some horses with his breeding.

I am so excited to see the results and will look forward to seeing how it progresses. I am quite unnerved Hilly by what you said about the potential for stallions to become "backyard breeding" if they get knocked out of the process at three and decisions are made not to progress in the process.

Can I have one of those Martinis now, pretty please? Have just checked mares again. The ginger one is listing to starboard and I am at the size of that bump.

Just to clarify about the 3yos - that is the cheapest option for would-be stallion owners. It will still add up - 198 inspection fee; a couple of week's loose-schooling/jumping at boot camp if it can't be done in-house; a full vetting, including x-rays, down to a day off work for the owner/helper and diesel - but the options for older stallions, then under saddle, will be higher.

Then you will have to factor in having him jumping on the circuit while the meter is ticking. So the ideal, economic scenario for a would-be owner is get a young horse out and find out if he's worth perservering with. And some will rail and rage and go all out to prove their failed horse is the next Cavalier.

Of course, anyone campaigning a stallion knows what it costs to prove him in competition. It's a gamble and will only really pay off when he is producing sons/daughters as good as, if not exceeding, his own track record.

A long and winding road.

Three owners I spoke to planned to geld their 'failed' stallions, I suspect when they went home and cooled off, that two might change their minds but the other horse is probably singing high tenor and walking a tad gingerly by now.

To me, it just opens up the possibility of Ireland becoming a two-tier breeding nation. One set of breeders will do everything by the book while the other slips back into 'sure, whatever you'd like him to be by'.

Anyhow, bring your knitting next year IL, we can sit in the front row of the mob who will holler 'off with his ..leadrein' at the failed candidates.

 

[hilly]

Regards me changing stallions here and there, that's the beauty of having 4 mares! I'd use Cumano on my pride and joy Duca Di Busted mare this year but well, am kinda broke so use Puissance this year. Am going to do something commercial this year and sell some of the foals in Goresbridge!!! Even though my Father would have me exorcised for trying to make money in such a way!!!! That way I'll hopefully be able to afford Cumano next year for her Cabdulla Du Tillard for her Classic Vision daughter. She also has a yearling Clover Flush daughter that will never compete due to breaking her leg last year so she'll be getting bred from at 3. That'll be 5 mares then. I should get through my list fairly quickly then!

A friendly word of advice - do not get out of your depth! I know of someone who, unbeknownst to his intended betrothed, has sequestered some of their Marital Home building fund to buy straws from two European stallions. I really, truly hope the gamble pays off for him otherwise there will be a wedding dress on eBay.

Keep your feet firmly on the ground, the good stallions are out there on ice/liquid nitrogen when you have the funds to comfortably justify spending them.

 

[hilly]

hilly,

lord above, so much to debate! Your penultimate paragraph, in your last post but one, answered my question, but with another question! You're not actually helping me, at the moment!

You did ask and the background and politics of Irish breeding hasn't even been scraped of volcanic ash yet.

I would also, with the greatest respect, point out that the myriad of suggested stallions are entirely valid offerings, though I accept that the sheer volume of them is confusing, at best. The owner of one mare will seek out the ideal stallion. The owner of five, or more mares, will need to expand their search to encompass those horses which will suit each individual mare. That the mare is of vital importance, is not in question, but then so is the horse to whom she's put. That, I would suggest, is the need for such a variety of stallions.

I potentially have four mares to cover this year. I would certainly not consider owning/breeding/running on retained fillies from any more than that amount. I can tell you which stallion is on their dancecard until the year 2015. All depending on factors such as safe foaling, (and there have been some sad tales already from other breeders, plus I have done more than my share of trips to Troytown and the Equine Centre to ever take horse-breeding for granted); if a mare needs a year off; if the stallion is still alive; if not, there's a Plan B partner. Plan, then implement
I would also suggest that for Ireland to have, say half a dozen top class stallions, really isn't good enough. Of course Ireland produces some very good horses, but if you consider the number of horses, in your home land, per capita, then you really should be producing more. The equine knowledge which is contained within Ireland, is staggering, but of little use if it becomes bogged down in "tradition", just for the sake of it.

[I]Actually, there's not a huge amount of top class stallions to pick from within any of the major studbooks. Hence why there's inbreeding, looking for the next flavour of the month and some top stallions producing 400 foals a year. The problem of finding a top, commerical stallion is not unique to Ireland.[/I]

I would be more than happy to be proved wrong, but the ID/TB mare, put back to a TB, has had its day, perhaps. It worked 30 years ago, but now? The odd one will come through, it's just that there seems to be no consistency. There needs to be a serious introduction of foreign blood, in my view, but only because there simply aren't enough top class stallions, or importantly the equivalent mares, standing in Ireland.

This is exactly what I said in an early post. Everything is cyclical. Everything has it's 15 minutes of fame. You don't hang on to it, you learn from it, take the best from it and apply it to the future. Neither should you downplay or denigrate that era either. The topic of 'do we have enough good mares left in the country to breed out of this doldrum' came up at Cavan, it was decided that the odds were at best 50/50.

Can't remember as it was pages past but someone asked, quite charmingly but naively, if the Europeans would help Ireland out, or look kindly on us - words to that effect. Why should they?! We were once their shopping ground, our breeding and competitive rivals, then 'just' competitive rivals and now we are merely another market, there is no loyalty in commerce.

And that is why Irish breeders have to know exactly what they have in their mare herd; what they plan to breed, not a 'one size fits all' hope, how they will sell/market their horses, not just in 18 months time but in 10/20 years time and be prepared to adjust to market forces.



Debate I've decided, gives me the chance to think and consider my entrenched views. With help, I will continue to do so!

Alec.

Or we could just throw you down a rope ladder? Digging yourself in deeper is never a good plan

 

[Eothain]

A friendly word of advice - do not get out of your depth! I know of someone who, unbeknownst to his intended betrothed, has sequestered some of their Marital Home building fund to buy straws from two European stallions. I really, truly hope the gamble pays off for him otherwise there will be a wedding dress on eBay.

Keep your feet firmly on the ground, the good stallions are out there on ice/liquid nitrogen when you have the funds to comfortably justify spending them.

Why thank you! Yeah, I've been warned by several people about the quality of Cumano's semen. Someone has suggested to me that because I'm such a fan of Nabab De Reve, and his stud don't export semen, I should go to Belgium, find a Nabab De Reve mare and buy her on the conditin that she goes in foal to Cumano. The thought has crossed my mind, again and again and again and again.

If I do choose to hedge my bets and not go with Cumano next year, then Cornet Obolensky is high up there in my list but he's relatively young. Luidam lives 20 minutes away from me and is 17 as is Ars Vivendi. So failing Cumano, my Duca Di Busted mare will be booked into both of them provisionally, after I see them of course, am happy about suitability and all that goes with it. Although, I have seen Luidam several times at this stage. I love that horse! Then when the mare adds those two notches to her bed post, Obolensky will be in his late teens and priority for using him will shoot up!

The mare will be 19 then and of course provided she doesn't miss any years in between, her retirement would have to be considered!!! However, Renkum Woudina did give birth to Ringfort Cruise at like 23 or something!!!

Also saw that Heritage Fortunus has come back to Ireland for this breeding season. He was also vital in that famous victory of August 6th 2004 for which I love Luidam so much. Another spanner thrown in the works!!! On top of all this, I must now go and search the country for an Errigal Flight colt that is stallion quality. So much to do, so little time!

Also, may I just say, that I never intended to be abraisive. Blunt, yes. But I was never looking to pick a fight.

 

[rebel mountain]

There were two Classic Vision stallions up for inspection last week, neither made the grade. Likewise, with Coille Mor Hill, apart from one of Marion Hughes' horses, hasn't featured in too many pedigrees of recent performers. Watermill Swatch - super young stallion but will be at least 2 years before we see the first of his progeny under saddle. He will definitely add refinement which is badly needed in the Irish mare herd and there will always be a place for such a refining influence to mix n'match with performance and substance. Even the KWPN and Selle Francais still look for the occasional TB but where to find these sires? Only 3 presented at Cavan, of which two were provisionally accepted.

Happy days? More like Confused Days ..

coille mor hill has 980 sjai points
in 2008 he had only registered 282 in total
in 2008 cruising registered 1211 in total
for a horse to have competed to that level you would think he should have an RID son approved as he is one of the last living sons of clover hill[the yard stick in with all sires have to measure up to]

 

[Eothain]

Just out of brazen curiosity, I would like to ask all of you, in particular Hilly, Rebel Mountain and Simsar to tell me what you think is the way forward for show jumping breeding in Ireland. Where in your minds do you go from here for international success and economic viability and why?

I gave my opinion a number of pages ago in a really long reply. No one has commented on it good, bad or indifferently yet!

Also, can I just make it very clear that I am not denigrating the bread and butter types or eventing or anything else. At least, it's not my intent. I am just concentrating my focus on showjumpers.

 

[hilly]

You're looking for MORE essays? Afraid there's two chances this week, nil and none. Once HighRisk mare, nudging ever closer to due date *touches wood* and her horsepital visit is earned, then I can concentrate on story time.


And no, I didn't think you were looking for a fight, a lively debate and humorous exchange of opinions, yes; posting Big Ear pics, maybe not so welcome, but fight, no.

You obviously care about the future of the Irish horse, as do many of the contributors here; I was merely balancing the debate by pointing out we have bred some brilliant four-legged ambassadors in the past - just because their unique cross no longer works in the current market, makes their achievements no less laudable - and that as 80% of Irish horses are destined for the leisure market, invariably in the UK, that as much as we would ALL like to breed the next champion - Cheltenham, Dublin, Badminton, wherever - that the reality is most of these horses will not reach such heady heights but will still bring years of enjoyment and repeat business from such customers.

There - *dismounts from saddlesoapbox*. Have fun with this one in the meantime.. who controls the future of the sport we're breeding these horses for?

 

[Simsar]

Just out of brazen curiosity, I would like to ask all of you, in particular Hilly, Rebel Mountain and Simsar to tell me what you think is the way forward for show jumping breeding in Ireland. Where in your minds do you go from here for international success and economic viability and why?

I gave my opinion a number of pages ago in a really long reply. No one has commented on it good, bad or indifferently yet!

Also, can I just make it very clear that I am not denigrating the bread and butter types or eventing or anything else. At least, it's not my intent. I am just concentrating my focus on showjumpers.

I have sooooooooo much to say at the minute but it is just all getting jumbled in my head.

For what it is worth I don't feel that anyone on this debate has been looking for a fight, just an exchange of views and opinions that we ALL feel strongly about.

Will try and write down my thoughts and post later.

 

[Eothain]

Super, I'm looking forward to some good reading later!

On the point of who will control our sport in the future; I hope that Showjumping Ireland and the Showjumpers Club continue to work hand in hand. I think it's an absolute disgrace that Millstreet is going ahead this year as an unaffiliated show. I for one, won't be there because if I have nothing else, I'll have my honour. Any riders who go, need to check their morals. How dare Millstreet think they are bigger than Showjumping Ireland!

 

[Simsar]

Eothain can you please re-read my second post on this thread and just answer some of those questions in red for me, you probably have already but I can't find any answers apart from the one about your mares, and it might help me un-jumble the mess that is my head if I have some answers to some questions I have asked previously?

 

[gadetra]

Thank you eothain for such a lovely welcome!!
I'd also like to draw your attention to two rather prolofic Longford mares-Virginia Wolfah and Zonah's Pet. Both with good stallion sons.
Also I can't understand the Collie Mor Hill cunundrum either. Great and good though Cruising undoubtably is, with 1189 foals reg'd in total you can't really fail to have some good performers with those numbers although I'm going out on a limb to say he hasn't really produced himself or better yet has he? (Please don't shoot me Eothain!!)
Collie Mor Hill has proved himself at top level and just doesn't seem to get mares. Any ideas anyone?
Also Sir Rivie is another interesting RID stallion-having competed internaltionally at 1.30m and above and, even more interestingly for an ID, he was a renownd speed specialist. He also shares his sire with Cruising- Sea Crest, out of a Ginger Dick mare.
On the TB side of things French Buffet is another exciting addition to the Irish stallion ranks. An ex-racer, he jumped to 1.50-1.60 internationally but he's gettin on a bit now-25 I think.
There son't seem to be any heirs to Master Imp's eventing throne, but I hear and see good things about Cult Hero's stuff, I think Pippa Funnel is riding one at the mo?
Overheard hereasy at RDS last year-a number of people talking about staying away from Touchdown and Puissance for the sake of Colin Diamond. Why???
I am also a fan of the new 'trafic light system' for the studbook but remain confused and bewildered at the birth of the two new Irish Warmblood studbooks. Why? What's wrong with the good old IHR? The traffic light system and the different sections within suffice for me but maybe I'm alone in that. By refining the one we already have and improving it, a la the KWPN we can build a stronger case for ourselves by unifying it all-'united we stand divided we fall and all that??.'
Sorry for the long and rambling post I haven't quite got the hang of this!

 

[gadetra]

Also just to say this thread rocks-long may it roaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrr!!

 

[Eothain]

htobago, Don't bring bloody politics into it or we will be here forever!!!

Looks like we're here forever anyway!!!

On to the red text:

Without an injection of warmblood we'd be even further behind than we are. The classical Irish horse was a galloping horse that generated jump through speed. With more technical courses, they'd have no room to generate that jump. Warmbloods can generate jump from little or no space. We need that in our horses.

Because we have an awful marketing machine, if we weren't subsidised, we wouldn't be debating this. There'd be nothing to debate. I've already outlined how I'd go about changing that.

I'm ignoring the stuff about Draughts. I think Draught Horse and then think ... Meh!

We're not selling out by using warmbloods. See point 1. Yes, we need thoroughbred blood but where are they? We're not going to get access to the likes of Presenting or Old Vic and even if we could, who's to say they'd be of any use? Where are the thoroughbreds?

I hope Watermill Swatch can help out but I know he has his doubters. I can only live in hope that his doubters can be proved wrong.

One other thing, I agree with Jan Greve when he says that there is no such thing as a freak showjumper. I agree when he says that a mare who produces a grand prix horse is a good mare as is a stallion who sired a grand prix horse though he never competed himself. Who's to say that in different hands, the parents wouldn't have been stars themselves? The family of a grand prix showjumper is always a good family in my view.

And no Gadetra, Cruising will never produce a horse as good as or better than himself. Why? He's the best to have ever lived. He's the best of any breed, any discipline, any type, any race, creed or colour. He's the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be!

 

[rebel mountain]

in answer to eothains early question in id's we have coille mor hill,crosstown dancer,classic vision,sir rivie and eothain's favourite huntingfield rebel
in ish's we have chippison,cara touche,cruisings mickey finn,king's master and puissance
in tbs we have???????????????????????
we might have a tb problem but foreignbreds aren't tb's but if you want a tb horse by master imp golden master is your man he is only s1 unfortunatly

 

[hilly]

Thank you eothain for such a lovely welcome!!
I'd also like to draw your attention to two rather prolofic Longford mares-Virginia Wolfah and Zonah's Pet. Both with good stallion sons.
Also I can't understand the Collie Mor Hill cunundrum either. Great and good though Cruising undoubtably is, with 1189 foals reg'd in total you can't really fail to have some good performers with those numbers although I'm going out on a limb to say he hasn't really produced himself or better yet has he? (Please don't shoot me Eothain!!)
Collie Mor Hill has proved himself at top level and just doesn't seem to get mares. Any ideas anyone?
Also Sir Rivie is another interesting RID stallion-having competed internaltionally at 1.30m and above and, even more interestingly for an ID, he was a renownd speed specialist. He also shares his sire with Cruising- Sea Crest, out of a Ginger Dick mare.
On the TB side of things French Buffet is another exciting addition to the Irish stallion ranks. An ex-racer, he jumped to 1.50-1.60 internationally but he's gettin on a bit now-25 I think.
There son't seem to be any heirs to Master Imp's eventing throne, but I hear and see good things about Cult Hero's stuff, I think Pippa Funnel is riding one at the mo?
Overheard hereasy at RDS last year-a number of people talking about staying away from Touchdown and Puissance for the sake of Colin Diamond. Why???
I am also a fan of the new 'trafic light system' for the studbook but remain confused and bewildered at the birth of the two new Irish Warmblood studbooks. Why? What's wrong with the good old IHR? The traffic light system and the different sections within suffice for me but maybe I'm alone in that. By refining the one we already have and improving it, a la the KWPN we can build a stronger case for ourselves by unifying it all-'united we stand divided we fall and all that??.'
Sorry for the long and rambling post I haven't quite got the hang of this!

Another Paddy on board! Passed through Longford on the way to Cavan last week and stopped at Granard, the shrine of St. Edward. Thought it quite symbolic that half of the Macken family's landmark butcher shop is now
a beauty salon while The Bay Horse bar next door is boarded up and for sale. Everything changes in rural and small-town Ireland.

Virgina Wolfa produced Boherdeel Clover but tell me more about the other mare?

You and Rebel Mountain asked about Coille Mor Hill; I remember him as a foal, not the most handsome boy even then but he made up for it in jump and he and Tom Slattery, one of the most stylish and natural horsemen, were a great success story. I think you would need nothing short of a very quality, athletic TB mare to cross with him - his stock are not the prettiest and possibly that had a knock-on effect?

Less quality mares, less chance to redeem himself.

Sir Rivie? Shush, he's a pure-bred Draught.

For the three C's - Cavalier, Clover & Cruising, it was definitely a numbers game. One example, Cavalier, a deserved well-regarded event sire has foals in four figures; Peacock, the NH sire of Ringwood Cockatoo, produced just 33. Definitely a numbers game.

There are some pretenders to Master Imp's crown; I am baffled and bemused by one claim that a certain TB sire was regarded as second to him? The objective challenger is Power Blade with Cult Hero, who is definitely producing some very promising 'youngsters' including Flying Machine, Ghareeb and possibly Frankfort Boy. French Buffet and Watermill Swatch will be up there in a couple of days, agree it may be too late for FB.

Colin Diamond's progeny have super temperaments, that is one of the reasons he's so popular but at the end of the day, it's the breeders choice, (and pocket) whichever stallion they pick.