Happy Days For ISH Breeders

QF-WEST said:
"There are still some very good mares in Ireland. I estimate there are 10 to 15 mare families in Irealand that are of international standard. Carrigbrahan Lady line, Kilkenny Lady line, Trixie Lady line, Roadstown Gold line etc."

Iv been reading this thread for a while every night for the last week and have found it VERY interesting- Last night though, when I read those few lines quoted above I got A LOT more interested. (Iv only reached page 20 so apologies if this is discussed in detail later- I will try my best to catch up soon!!)

In relation to the Roadstown Gold line I only know of 3 of progeny:
-Hilton Clover (x Clover Hill)
-Mr Cawley (x Furisto)
-Roadstown Diamond (x KOD)

Does anyone know what their main achievements have been to date?

My sister has a mare by Roadstown Diamond (ISH) out of a 'Candys boy (ISH)' mare. We bought her as a 3 yr old a few years ago.

To my knowledge Roadstown Diamond was never inspected as a stallion by the IHB (Correct me if im wrong?) but I think he is registered as a stallion with weatherbys.

Does anyone have more info on the Roadstown Diamond line? Any little bit would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
QF
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i think your dead right i don't think is our mares that are the problem i think its the horses we choose to breed to because if you can get huge money for foals all by the one stallion everyone jumps on the bandwagon
e.g. lux z
did a filly foal of his not make huge money in goresbridge the next year he covered 254 mares
question is could every signal one of those mares suit him i think not
 
rebel mountain said:
i think your dead right i don't think is our mares that are the problem i think its the horses we choose to breed to because if you can get huge money for foals all by the one stallion everyone jumps on the bandwagon
e.g. lux z
did a filly foal of his not make huge money in goresbridge the next year he covered 254 mares
question is could every signal one of those mares suit him i think not
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Couldn't agree more. The Luxz phenomonon is a mystery to me and I personally don't like him but a lot of others do so...
It happened with Huntingfield Rebel as well-over 250 foals this year and whilst it's great for an RID not all of those mares can suit, and i'll bet there'll be very few top lots amongst them...
 
It might be worth mentioning that one is an Olympic level showjumper and Pulsar Crown winner. The other, while being a very very very nice horse, isn't.
One has sired progeny that are competing at 5 star level showjumping, the other hasn't.

If anybody is giving away a nice Lux Z mare, I'll take it!!!
 
the point i am trying to make is not about either stallion but the simply fact is the irish breeders if you like are like sheep they follow the leader so when one horses get popular he get extremely popular
on the brood mare front we have two great prospects coming up in the shape of irish independent echo beach and harristown princess can't wait until they retire to stud fully
 
Thanks for the information regarding the Roadstown Gold line.

The mare is Roadstown Diamond(ISH) X Candys boy(ISH), Liver Chestnut, 15'3hh, and lightly built/bloody?
Pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kellys+diamond+candy

Any suggestions as to a good ISH stallion and/or a good warmblood stallion to cross with her?
170cms +

It would be nice to keep the lines Irish if there was a suitable ISH performance stallion that fitted the bill but its not likely we will find such a stallion unfortunately.
 
I think it is impossible to recommend a stallion from a mare without seeing her or even photos. If you go to the Horse Sport Ireland site, you can look at the stallion books on line. Are you in Ireland? If not an Irish horse standing in Ireland would not be for you because of semen export restrictions.

Good luck anyway.
 
Well I mean how many Olympic showjumpers will there be amongst his 250+ foals? The market will be flooded with Lux z's thus defeating the purpose of using to him in the first place to get a top priced lot in Gorsebridge. How many of those mares suit him?
And Lux Z and Huntingfield Rebel, nice and good though they are, are not soley the answer to our showjumping conumdrum. As Rebel Mountain said, one of their offspring makes top lot and breeders flock to these stallions in the hope of replicating this magically - there is only so mauch a stallion can put on a mare...
How is this to improve the ISH?
 
Fair point. For arguments sake, let's say that the majority of mares that went to Lux are nice mares with no major conformational issues etc. Average mares looking for a little bit of va va voom. Especially if the average mare breeds a filly. The filly should be better than the mother. That's how the ISH moves forward.

Being honest, Lux or any stallion of his quality would generally have more to offer than the majority of Draught horses. No not all of the Lux stock will make the international arenas however if they can jump 1.20/1.30 then they are perfect for the quite large and indeed largely forgotten young rider market. Nothing wrong with a good diesel horse for a professional either.

The showjumping market is much larger than the elite riders and if properly managed, is much more viable in the long run, than the bread and butter market.

QF-WEST said:
Thanks for the information regarding the Roadstown Gold line.

The mare is Roadstown Diamond(ISH) X Candys boy(ISH), Liver Chestnut, 15'3hh, and lightly built/bloody?
Pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kellys+diamond+candy

Any suggestions as to a good ISH stallion and/or a good warmblood stallion to cross with her?
170cms +

It would be nice to keep the lines Irish if there was a suitable ISH performance stallion that fitted the bill but its not likely we will find such a stallion unfortunately.
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Clover Flush is the only ISH stallion I can think of, off the top of my head that's 170cm
 
I am not Looking for the next top lot in Goresbridge I am looking for a horse that as Conor says is capable of jumping 1.40 and higher and is ridable and sound then we have done our job.The stallions we use are picked to suit the mares and vice versa all the while trying to improve the quality of the stock which in turn will give us good foundation mares for the future.Hopefully geldings and colts will be able to compete to the best of their bloodlines and do no harm if they can win for either a professional or young rider.
I am not into jumping on any bandwagon but if a horse is popular then what harm is that!!!???
 
if we are talking about popularity then this is just something i heard that the country lux z was in before he came to ireland he only covered 4 mares in his last season thats a long way off 254
again i don't know if this is true
 
There are still plenty of Lux Z foals being registered every year on the continent. He is very popular in all the european studbooks, as are his approved son's
 
Exactly. Lupicor is just one of his popular stallion sons. Shame he's passed on now!

A large influx of Lux blood is in no way a bad thing for ISH breeding. Again, I'm hoping his daughters will produce the goods for us in the future
 
I agree that Lux z can add some 'va va voom' to an irish mare if used discriminately-not to chase top lots and I understand most do put a HELL of a lot of thought into who our mares go to but not everyone unfortunetely.
On teh foreign sire front, things have improved significantly but there's still a long way to go in terms of quality. There are a lot of second-rate continentals being jumped on because of their perceived superiority but a lot have simply failed to cut the mustard back home. I'm not saying every foreign bred in the country is this there are notable exceptions-Ludiam and Guidam for example among others.
We exported our best thoroughbred lines as foundations stallions for these 'wonder breds' : Furioso, Cottage Son etc. I do not see this happening on the Continent. Perhaps we have literally sold ourselves short?...
 
No, Lux is alive and well. Lupicor is dead. He was a fantastic stallion.

There's plenty of good foreigners in Ireland for us to choose from who all have progeny competing on the International scene. Condios, Limmerick, Arkansas, Peter Pan, Iroko, Mermus R, Vechta and Lancelot to name just a few. Yes all of them stallions descend from Irish or British thoroughbred breeding to be honest, the thoroughbred of yesteryear is an awful lot different to the thoroughbred of today. That's a whole different discussion for a time when I'm not stuck for time.

Fact is, the continentals used our horses to benefit theirs, regardless of if we like it or not. We cannot dare think the policies and breeding patterns of the past will succeed today. The sport has changed and evolved. The time has come for us to use their horses to benefit us.

Turnaround is fair play after all
 
i don't think i will ever convert but i do have a soft spot for cavalier O.B.O.S quality luidam and harlequin du carel but i would take cruisings mickey finn ,captain clover or laughtons flight over all of them
except maybe cavalier that would be a tie:rolleyes:
 
I see what you're saying, that's your choice to make. It takes all sorts afterall!

When traditional Irish breeding gets us back in the top 5 showjumping studbook rankings I'll sell all my stock with foreign breeding and go back to the traditional camp. That won't be anytime soon though will it? Speak with heads, not hearts!

I hate the belief that it's because of foreign horses "polluting" our herd that we've fallen off the radar. That's such a load of manure. You see some stud websites with phrases like "You'll find no warmbloods here" or "Free from foreign stallins" and I think to myself, Do you read the WBFSH rankings? Do you realise we're losing? Have you walked a Premier League GP course in Ireland lately? Do you realise what is expected of a showjumping horse? If the answer to any of them is no, then who are these people to ask us to use their stallions to potentially breed the next Aga Khan winning horse? Who are these people to insult our intelligence like that? That's exactly what they're doing. It's also why there is only the faintest glimmer of possibility that any of my mares will be sent to any of those studs. People might not like me for that but such is life. It takes all sorts to make a world after all.

Now, to be fair, I am in foul mood tonight so I'm not being very careful about what I say but being p-c only gets so much of your point across. Sometimes you have to shoot from the hip.

Luidam was on the Irish team that won the Nations Cup in Aachen. His super calm double clear won us the Aga Khan in 2004. Remarkably, that's the last year we won it. It was the first year no Irish horse was on the Irish team. There was uproar, but the result justified the team. No Irish horse has been on the team for the last 2 years either where we got a 2nd place in 2008, our highest fnish since 2004 and a disappointing 8th place last year.

I'm proud to say that next year, I will be using both stallions from the victorious 2004 team on 2 of my mares. Heritage Fortunus on my Musical Pursuit mare and Luidam on my Duca Di Busted mare. I was going to use Cumano on the Duca mare but enough people have warned me about his poor quality semen to make me think that perhaps it would be cheaper to go to Belgium and buy a mare, preferably by Nabab De Reve, in foal to him!!!

I've yet to see any serious proposals put forward here as to how we can regain international credibility as a showjumping studbook and not use foreign stallions.

The argument about their alleged bad temperament also doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
 
here is my proposeal in no more then 5 years maximum 3 brillant mares will be retiring to stud echo beach,hasrraitown princess and cullenagh lucille and there has to be one or two more now if they are light of bone give them a horse like classic vision,if they are middle ways give them a horse like cruisings mickey finn and if they are heavy and in need of a tb that a mystery but their is a tb horse in this country on the up
 
:)
rebel mountain said:
here is my proposeal in no more then 5 years maximum 3 brillant mares will be retiring to stud echo beach,hasrraitown princess and cullenagh lucille and there has to be one or two more now if they are light of bone give them a horse like classic vision,if they are middle ways give them a horse like cruisings mickey finn and if they are heavy and in need of a tb that a mystery but their is a tb horse in this country on the up
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I am new to this forum but am very entertained by the different views from all breeders... This last one spurred me to respond. Three decent competition mares like those deserve decent stallions. I think the thought of Classic Vision is an insult to those mares, and it is one way of breeding the jump 'out' of the mares! Cruisings Mickey Finn is a good horse for sure, but I think they need more scope from the stallion side - something like Russel II is the job for them! Has to be one of the best horses to ever stand in Ireland, and has pedigree & performance, how many stallions acan boast 14 Nations Cups, World Championships, European Championships, Puissance, Six Bars, Olympics etc.. and Ireland are lucky enough to get 1st proper chance to gain his progeny! And his foals I have seen are smashers... Other option is Iroko, another serious horse from same stud.
 
Welcome to the forum Newlook and thanks for chipping in.I have to say I dont think Russell will do any harm by standing here.We have a colt on the ground by him and I couldn't be happier with him.He was quite chunky when he was born but is now fining down and has taken on a lot more blood in the last week or two.Have you used him yourself?
As regards this thread there will always be the people for and against Irish and Foreign horses that are producing horses for different elements of the sport.If I was looking for a nice allrounder or a nice quite hack then I would use the traditional cross anyday but until someone can convince me otherwise I will stick to what we have been doing for a number of years and with a bit of success so far.
I am sure the Russels come in all shapes and sizes but this is an example of one of his.
A gratuitous pic of our Russell colt:)
LoughViewClassicLassandRusselcolt06.jpg
 
rebel mountain said:
here is my proposeal in no more then 5 years maximum 3 brillant mares will be retiring to stud echo beach,hasrraitown princess and cullenagh lucille and there has to be one or two more now if they are light of bone give them a horse like classic vision,if they are middle ways give them a horse like cruisings mickey finn and if they are heavy and in need of a tb that a mystery but their is a tb horse in this country on the up
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That's not really a proposal though my rebellious mountaineering friend. I like Classic Vision. Hell, I have a broodmare by Classic Vision but reality is, he won't sire a international showjumper that will compete at the highest levels and pull our studbook back up. If Classic Vision only ever bred fillies, who in turn only ever bred fillies that would be a good thing. Like some of the stallions being mentioned here and there are never never never produce the goods. It's not like they're young horses. Stallions in their late teens should have some kind of Grand Prix performer or else be the dam sire of a GP performer. If they don't produce something of merit, they go on to my black list. Which is a pretty big list!!!

Please note, I am not slating Classic Vision. He's a fantastic model of a horse. Far more useful in a breeding program than 99% of Draught stallions. A far better looking Draught stallion than 99% of Draught stallions. Wonderful temperament and presence. He's always great to watch at the Bridge House Stud open days.

I do see what you're saying about using Irish stallions on our high class Irish mares. I think though, it'll be more likely to see part Irish stallions on them. Ringfort Cruise for example. It's going to be very easy to squander the progeny of these mares and the likes of Mo Chroi if the right stallions aren't used.

My own Classic Vision mare is taking a trip to Watermill Swatch this year. Regardless of what's thought of him, his foals are selling quite well. I'm saving up to put her in foal to Cabdula Du Tillard next year. He's by the Trakenher stallion Abdullah out of a Galoubet mare that is a half sister to Jalisco B, probably the most important mare line in France. I swear to God if she has a colt by Cabdula, I'll cry like a baby! Filly please.

newlook said:
:)

I am new to this forum but am very entertained by the different views from all breeders... This last one spurred me to respond. Three decent competition mares like those deserve decent stallions. I think the thought of Classic Vision is an insult to those mares, and it is one way of breeding the jump 'out' of the mares! Cruisings Mickey Finn is a good horse for sure, but I think they need more scope from the stallion side - something like Russel II is the job for them! Has to be one of the best horses to ever stand in Ireland, and has pedigree & performance, how many stallions acan boast 14 Nations Cups, World Championships, European Championships, Puissance, Six Bars, Olympics etc.. and Ireland are lucky enough to get 1st proper chance to gain his progeny! And his foals I have seen are smashers... Other option is Iroko, another serious horse from same stud.
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Welcome to the discussion NewLook. It's good to see new opinions being added to the mix. Especially since some of the earlier stalwarts of this thread have left it.

I hope the folk at Lissava are giving you a discount for flying the flag for them!
I really want to use Ringfort Cruise. I think he's a smashing horse. I was going to use him this year but there's a few stallions older than him that I want to use first. Thankfully he's only 13 and I hopefully have a couple of years to get to him!!!

Iroko is another on my to use list. I know he's pretty old but I hope he sticks around for a bit longer. What a cracking horse. Beautiful beautiful animal.
 
Has Courage (HOLST) been standing in Ireland long? He has pedigree and performance and size (170cms-which should suit a lot of the compact Irish mares).
His dam 'Vamara' is a full sister to Cavalier Royale which is VERY interesting.

Is he producing many noteworthy horses in Ireland? or has anybody used him?
 
Eothain said:
Welcome to the discussion NewLook. It's good to see new opinions being added to the mix. Especially since some of the earlier stalwarts of this thread have left it.

QUOTE]

As an earlier stalwart just checking in to say stalwartdom will be resumed in due course.

Personally, I am waiting for the stallion inspection results to be published to see the shakedown. Some stallion owners are not happy overall with the new process. It is a competitive business and one owner was complaining to me his stallion scored higher than his neighbours stallion on conformation and some other traits yet only got Class 1 and the other horse got Prelim Approved. But this is the whole point of the linear scoring it is an overall assessment covering performance, conformation, movement and jumping ability. Lots of grumbling that RIDs shouldn't be made to jump - I disagree they should jump within the parameters set for horses of that type. What use is there having stallions that for traditional Irish breeding are meant to be the bedrock if we don't know what they are like over a pole? Some RID stallions jump, some don't but I do believe it has to be tested.

Neighbour said his horse was put down the jumping lane 9 times. To me, this indicates a) the horse was not properly prepared, b) the inspectors were trying to give it every chance to perform c) the horse was stopping or knocking poles. I wasn't there but the results will be interesting.

On another point, a stud near me has EVA - bad times 2 stallions affected and 8 or 9 mares. As yet I don't know which stud but there would not be that many to pick from in Co Mayo.

Iroko - Fabulous
Courage - Ditto

Denise
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Denise a friend of mine took a stallion and he was more than happy with what they had said to him.His stallion did not get approved but he said that everything the judges told him good or bad was agreed with wholeheartedly by himself.The stallion has since been gelded which is exactly what should happen if not up to scratch.The Linear scoring will take a bit of getting used to but people have to accept what they have in front of them may not be worth keeping as a stallion and I have to agree that ID stallions should have to show their usefullness over a pole even if it is downgraded in height to prove that they have some technique.What happens then to the people that believe that they can produce a jumper from an ID stallion that has no technique at all and never had to show his usefullness at the gradings.They will be barking up a very big tree and definately the wrong one.
 
Hi Ballyshan - firstly Russell Junior is looking well, nice to see his progress.


I do think also the linear scoring approach will be beneficial in the long run. I know some people who didn't present for inspection this year at 3yo pending what the outcome was from this round of inspections. Some I believe are heading for the SEIS book and by passing IHB. Still, those are the choices we have now. It won't be so easy for some owners to get mares if they are tagged "Not recommended for breeding" it is quite a stigma but is also a truthful assessment based on the process. It is possible therefore that some may well be approved in other "approved" studbooks recognised by Ireland even though they didn't pass the IHB inspection.

I will be watching the next few years with interest. It should result in only the best going forward for inspection and a more selective approach by stallion breeders about what they present. Interesting times.

I think as Hilly said before, lets hope it doesn't result in a lot of backyard and under the radar breeding and we end up with a glut of poor stock going begging by non approved stallions.
 
I also have to laugh when I see people complain about how expensive it's going to be to get horses approved, sorry, Recommended For Breeding. A good stallion should be competing in all the classes the HSI has recommended. Dublin, ISH classes, Cavan, Nationals etc. It's no more expensive to get horses approved now than it has been to get stallions a name in the past. I don't see what all the moaning is about.

I'd love to see the HSI stop issuing passports for stallions who only get preliminary approval and don't do anything other than that. Why would stallion owners protest like that? What gives them the right? They either bite their bottom lip and row in behind the HSI or row somewhere else if they're that opposed to change for the better. I've said it to stallion owners already and I'll surely say it again. When it comes to the new approval system, stop crying and if your horse isn't good enough, start gelding.

It won't be too long before we see who wins in the SIES/ISH battle. The ISH was #11 in the WBFSH rankings in 2009. The AES was #24. Who's to say that the daughter society of the AES will fare any better?
 
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