Happy Days For ISH Breeders

it can not be easy on stallion owners either have to buy /breed the horse get them approved convince breeders to use him advertising him
without the expense of jumping him and what about the lad how paid big money for his horse can he sink another 20grand into him to bring to the top

let me just add clover hill was never jumped maybe eothain you should have a picture of him on your page :cool:
 
Fair point. Clover Hill was never jumped. Errigal Flight hunted as a 4 year old and did no more. Contender jumped only up to 1.20 but as Jan Greve says, there's no such thing as a freak showjumper. If a horse's parents never jumped but produced a world class horse then who's to say that the parents wouldn't have been world class if they had been asked.
That's the great thing about Irish people, they will always always always give you an example of an exception to the rule. If the HSI adopted that policy in today's market, where do you think we'd really be headed. Answer with head, not heart please!

I had another example of a typical Irish trait about horses, but I forget it. I'll post it again some other time.

How many more stallions never competed that got progeny jumping at the highest level? Not too many. I for one, will not take a stallion owner's word or another person's word that some random stallion is a "great horse that gets mighty jumpers". Yeah, mighty horses to jump some poxy tree trunk out hunting maybe! Coloured poles on those god forsaken flat cups are a different story.

It can't be easy on stallion owners but you know, bad break, get over it. If they want to show their horse has merit and has some place in the market then let them do it in the ring. If the horse is any good, he won't be too long about making back the cost of his competition career in covering fees. Stallion owners will get no sympathy from me. Nor do I want sympathy from others when I eventually have a stallion or two at stud and believe me, if they can't do it in the ring, they'll be meeting Mr. Snips.

The fact is, this isn't a hobby industry anymore. Sport horse breeding is pretty big business. Yes, we're heavily subsidised but I guarantee you, if the subsidies were cut and people had to look at what they're doing as a business in itself, then 7/8s of the dirt that's out there would be gone. Stallion owners have to prove their horse's worth. So I don't want to see pictures of stallion's heads or side on views of them in the Farmers Journal or Irish Field. Put in a picture of them over a fence. Let us see them doing what it is we want their progeny to do. If that means some people will never be stallion owners because they can't afford it, so be it. Form a syndicate instead. Where there's a will, there's a way but if people are going to invest in a stallion, then make it count.

The fact is that jumping horses breed jumping horses. How many of the WBFSH Top 30 Showjumping Sires weren't high performers? There's the proof of the pudding. Not the Irish exception.
 
you want a great horse who never jumped king of diamond or maybe if he doesn't fit the bill skyboy errigal flight or diamond serpant
these produced horses like diamond express skylight ado annie and diamond exchange
and if you sold a horse tomorrow would you wait six months sometimes 11 months for your money or not get it at all this is what stallions men have to go through
the answer with my head the HSI aren't right about everything far from itdo you think they are? and answer with your head
 
I 100% believe that the HSI are doing the right thing with their new system and doing it well. I also think they're doing the right thing with the new Draught inspection system too. I hope neither of the Draught bodies get the studbook back. At least the HSI can rise above their petty power plays.

Did you just completely ignore my point about the WBFSH sire rankings?
 
Carmena Z jumped double clear for Ireland in France. Hopefully a sign of things to come, success by crossing our best mares to the best warmblood stallions! Carmena Z is bred Carthago x Irco Mena x King of Diamonds. This is clear evidence that the WB/ISH cross is working. It will be great to have an Irish Horse jumping in the RDS for the Nations Cup. Or maybe some people in the audience will say " Ya can see the diamonds in him!"
 
GrassHorse said:
It will be great to have an Irish Horse jumping in the RDS for the Nations Cup. Or maybe some people in the audience will say " Ya can see the diamonds in him!"
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I love this!:) It is so true.

Increasing genetic potential by examining 5th generation or even Twelth generation pedigrees and relations of those horses within the pedigrees as suggested by recent articles in the Irish Field, is what most enlightened breeders do anyway. If other breeders are to be educated, it has not proved successful as most of the 5 day breeders courses to be run by Teasgc last year were cancelled due to lack of interest. There again how many breeders do you know especially in Ireland who would consider they need educating???
Arrogance?? not really, horses and breeding are inborn skills to so many people here and those traditionalists that breed by knowledge handed down and by instinct and intuition would not have a notion of stuying GP and BLUP.

So there you go.;)
 
Just remembered, in relation to the World rankings, our major decline has been from 2004. What is the explanantion for that? According to the esteemed genetic evaluation experts, this is because the genetic potential of Irish horses has been developing much more slowly than our counterparts because we do not have a scientific approach and evaluation system in the same way they do. Hence the KWPN looky likey inspections.

So there is hope we can catch up but not any time soon and not in a climate where the new is treated with suspicion. Does that matter? Not really, the elite breeders will BLUP until they burst and keep following the "Holy Grail" of an Olympic show jumper, others will breed their hunters,RIDs,CPs, bread and butters, trotters, gypsy cobs, TBs, useful 1.20 sporthorses and Vive la Difference. That is what makes Irish horses so great. We have been deriding them for not succeeding at showjumping when they succeed in every other area of sport so all credit to them and thier breeders.:)

We are also forgetting that the RID is on a watch list because numbers are so small so yes to preserve the breed they do need to be bred for their own sake but in a right way - this is however part of a wider environmental discussion.

OK lazy Sunday rant over - !!!!!!
 
Rebel,

I agree there are some plain old things around but as it stands there is a permitted amount of TB blood in RIDs and if we go too blood we get half breds, then it is game over for RID's.

I think once more it comes down to needing to evaluate your ID mare and then choose the best partner for her instead of following the yellow brick road to whichever RID won at the RDS/got top dollar at the sales/Jumped on the Irish team. It is possible to breed quality stock and you know immediately which they are just by looking at them before looking at any pedigree information.

It is one of the sticking points with the ID people on the performance vs tradition type for IDs. When it is done right, there is no better horse than a smashing RID.
 
GrassHorse said:
Carmena Z jumped double clear for Ireland in France. Hopefully a sign of things to come, success by crossing our best mares to the best warmblood stallions! Carmena Z is bred Carthago x Irco Mena x King of Diamonds. This is clear evidence that the WB/ISH cross is working. It will be great to have an Irish Horse jumping in the RDS for the Nations Cup. Or maybe some people in the audience will say " Ya can see the diamonds in him!"
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Very true!!! What a pedantic race of people we Irish are, in that respect at least!!!

Did any one see the live stream of the La Baule GP? H&M Actrice jumped absolutely fantastically for Malin Bayard Johnson. It's truly wonderful to have a horse like Actrice's sire, Ars Vivendi at stud in Ireland. It might be worth mentioning that Ars Vivendi's stable mate Harlequin Du Carel was also represented at La Baule by Dorada. It's great to see two stallions at the same stud in Ireland having progeny represent them at the highest level like that. Just don't mention that one of the stallions is French and the other a Holsteiner ;)

Credit must also be given to Michael Quirke for having the vision to stand stallions of that calibre. www.ballymureenstud.com Credit must also go to whom ever designed such a delightful website. Take a bow Grasshorse!

Irishlife said:
That is what makes Irish horses so great. We have been deriding them for not succeeding at showjumping when they succeed in every other area of sport so all credit to them and their breeders.:)
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Meh. My motto is; If you're not first, you're last. There's no second place. Just first and first of the losers!!! Perhaps I'm a little too competitive! ;)

Irishlife said:
When it is done right, there is no better horse than a smashing RID.
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Really?
 
"Meh" and "Really?" - Don't know the first word, and the second seemed loaded with sarcasm. Hope I'm wrong.

In context, my referral to nothing better than a smashing RID did not say "as an Olympic showjumper!"

Please exchange "RID" for any horse breed you like.The same statement can be applied to any sort of horse whether Connemara, Welsh, KWPN, TB or Percheron that is a shining example of its type.
 
It was loaded with sarcasm. Only because I'm trying to inject a wee touch of humour back into this thread. I presume no one wants the feel good tone of this thread to completely disappear!!!

Now, having said that, I know "they" say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit but like any horse that is true to it's breed type, when done right, there's not a whole lot better than a bit of sarcasm!!!

I do agree with you by the way!
 
Eothain said:
Credit must also be given to Michael Quirke for having the vision to stand stallions of that calibre. www.ballymureenstud.com Credit must also go to whom ever designed such a delightful website. Take a bow Grasshorse!

QUOTE]
Yes! Michael Quirke deserves alot of credit for bringing such good horses to Ireland. Harlequin makes lovely horses. Im a big fan! The Quirke's are decent too! So easy to do business with.

The people who own a stallion have a lot to do with the stallion reaching its potential?
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Welcome:)

I think we have all gained something from this thought-provoking thread. It has been a joy to participate in.

I looked at your lovely horses on your website. Touch of the Blues is a real showstopper and of course he has renowned back breeding as well as reputation. Your young stallion certainly has his dad's stamp and looks to be producing some useful youngsters.

As you probably read pages back in the thread , we turned to the subject of American hunter/jumpers and the view there was that continental warmbloods were filling that role as well these days. What has been your experience? Do you produce for the hunter/jumper market?

Did John Joyce come over for your stallion inspections?

Sorry about all the questions, just curious and it is always interesting to have another perspective.
 
The people who own a stallion have a lot to do with the stallion reaching its potential?[/QUOTE]

i 100% agree with you the stallion has to get mares to produce a champion so the stallion owner has to let the breeders know he is there
 
Thank you for the welcome! I have been loathe to stick my nose into a conversation that (although I have a burning interest!) I feel I'm an outsider to the subject and to the markets and policies of all of the people involved.

Ollie's dad, TOTB, is a legend in my estimation, a super producer, with 8 living stallion sons graded RID, and his daughters are really wonderful. His owners, Simone and Doug Mackay, are salt of the earth types, terrific people.

We found our boy when I went searching for his sire with the thought of breeding to him. At that time, Flynn (TOTB) had been sold on from Penmerryl and had literally disappeared. I did, however, find a photo of a perfectly darling colt foal by him who was for sale. Printed the photo, held it up in front of Hubby's nose, and within an hour we had contracted to buy the colt - we had been looking for THAT horse for over 16 years :)

I do think that Ollie's dam's family has a great deal to do with his quality, as well - that mare has been a super producer, and her family really puts a great hind end on their stock - something that we (my husband Rick and I) simply must have, both of us coming from a Quarter Horse - stock horse background as kids.

Fast forward, past the long years of watching in horror as the foal of our dreams passed all too slowly through the infamous ugly duckling stages of a purebred ID growing up, to finally, today at age six, become the horse we first saw in that 5 day old foal.

He was inspected and approved RID in Canada at age three, as we are members of and he is dual registered with IDHS Canada and IDHSNA. His inspectors were Michael Ryan and John Joyce. We were so very gratified to have these two lovely gentlemen tell us just how good they believed our colt was, they were quite taken with the boy and spent a very long time just hanging around his stall gazing at him.

We are ecstatic (not too florid a term) with the quality he has produced on both our Thoroughbred mares and in his first purebred filly out of Mac's Colmerin RID. He managed to do what no other stallion ever has for our mares, that is to really stamp both fillies with his look, type, quality and temperament. The purebred filly is really smashing, a perfect example of her breed, square as a little brick, grand mover, wonderful neck, pretty little head and what a powerhouse! He really improved that particular rather plain little mare, and we have just bred her back for another - and hoping for another filly :)

Only one foal is expected this year, another purebred from the wonderful old mare Suma's Keepsake RID. Praying hard for a filly from that cross!

We do raise horses to suit the hunter or jumper markets, as well as eventing - the bulk of American eventers tend to be errr,,,, well, cheap. They draw mostly from the off-track TB supplies, which seem to be bottomless. While I fail to see the sense in buying a reject with unknown soundness issues, and then pouring a huge amount of money into it, rather than buying a purpose bred sound young horse for the same long term dollar amount, well, it's their money.

The jumper people "like Irish horses", but will spend more money for a cull that they can tout as "imported" over buying an American bred ISH. Again, not necessarily common sense at work, but just the way it is. I hear that Americans are the butt of many jokes among Europeans for being gullible enough to buy virtually anything shown to them, but can't comment personally on that!

Hunters are pretty much a fashion show here regardless of the breed. Horse has to go "just so" and present a picture - rider must also present a picture, and it is funny to see one teeter straight off the horse while holding onto their "perfect pose". There is a lot of work going toward bringing back the classic American hunter - along with courses that actually require the horse and rider to have talent - but until we start teaching our kids to RIDE again, the fashion show will continue, I'm afraid.

As for the Warmbloods dominating - well, perhaps, but part of that is the sheer numbers of horses sold and bought. When we took a load of our Irishbreds in to last fall's Northwest Sporthorse Breeders Association Breeders Classic show series, we kicked some serious Warmblood butt. Our two year old ISH colt was Champion Dressage Breeding 2YO colt of the show - beating out all breeds; Ollie's first daughter was Champion Hunter Breeding filly under both judges. On only points earned in open classes (ie, against all breeds, not breed restricted) the Irish horses took home year end regional championships as well. It was a good year in the Northwest for the Irish horses.

The purebreds, of course, do not compete well against the purpose bred dressage breeds, but we always take our stallion along just to exhibit him - educating people as to just where our great ISH youngsters are coming from. It's the minds of these horses that draw people!

We are full up here, so sadly the mares are standing open - youngsters, even though they are wearing championships and are nicely started, are simply not moving. Our regional economy (we are in the far northwest of the USA) is truly awful, and even the easterners are not really buying much - and then they expect to get good horses for little money. Still, we do get a few inquiries from folks who say they just can't find the quality they are looking for in the east, so hopefully, we will move a couple of the four year olds this summer. Raising horses from foals to finished is a long term project, and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply not being realistic!

My God, I'm sorry, didn't mean to write a book. I'll crawl back under my rock now :)

Thanks again for the welcome!
 
What a wonderful insight to Irish horses in the U.S. Thank you. Very glad to hear the ISH's kicking some warmblood butt:).

Here as well, the economy is presenting not so happy days for Irish breeders. Quality is still moving but in all areas aggregate is down and across all markets even the Connemaras which usually hold steady for fillies. Wish you luck with moving a few on.

Penmerryls Rhythm & Blues by TOTB stands in Cork, his damsire is Snowford Bellman. Another black stallion who I think is super. I am not sure he gets that many mares though, someone I am sure will be able to tell us.

I watched a good few hunter/jumper videos on You Tube and it seemed very robotic. It is a very distinctive style and the horses go very smoothly but it seems almost "surreal". I am sure there is great time and effort put into the schooling and the style of the riders.

I suppose one way to look at the ex-racer TB event market is it gives them a second chance at life but equally it seems there is little value to them so therefore disposable? Certainly, eventers are bred to be just that here and also with the sorts of young horses you are breeding.

Do you have many visiting mares for Ollie or do you just breed your own. Like you I tend to "keep" my young ones until they are going on at four or so. Even then sometimes don't sell them - foolish and sentimental thats me!
 
In reading my previous tome of a comment I do sound a bit tough on the US Eventer folks - but honestly, most of the lower level people do seem to pour an awful lot of good money after bad on horses that are heading noplace but downhill as to their soundness and usefulness. Why not spend 15-20 thousand on a GOOD horse and then just train and care wisely and get on with eventing the horse, instead of putting your vet's kids through grad school trying to keep a wreck going!

"robotic"... what a great name for a fancy show hunter. Same trip, round after round, never varying, never bobbling....

So, Rhythm and Blues is back in his home in Ireland? Last time I paid attention I had heard he was in Germany for a spell. Glad he's back where he belongs! Handsome horse. His damsire Bellman just retired officially over here, they had a ceremony and everything. Tony Phillips still has the old guy, he's looking very well. Bellman, is, that is. Tony looks just like Tony :)

We'd love to have a few more mares to Ollie, and are a tiny bit surprised by the lack of interest in him from the purebred breeders on this side of the pond - there is a cultish notion of "rare bloodline" and "more compact ID" going on over here, and as Ollie is not truly all rare bloodlines, nor is he small (16:3 and a bit) they seem happy to ignore his quality and that of his first crop. Possibly breed politics comes into it - yes, we do have a bit of that here, as there is elsewhere!

I guess we shall keep using him, as we do believe he's the heart and soul of what a good Draught should be - just our own opinion, obviously. Wish his inspectors were able to see how well he turned out!
 
Don't worry, the next time I see John I will be sure to point him at your website and tell him of the good reports. He would be delighted I am sure to hear progress.

I think here also, they are encouraging RID breeders to widen the gene pool and yes, there does seem a trend toward more sport/performance types of RIDs. Yes here, a lot is politics driven too. I am no expert on RIDs but love them dearly and have a splosh of King of Diamonds and Clover Hill in my ISH's but as people tend to drift in and out of this thread, some of the RID folk will be having a good chat with you to bring you up to speed on matters RID here.

I am sure once Ollie's offspring are out and doing he will have more "brides" from the outside.
 
My opinion...How "good" news for you is BAD news for Irish Draughts.

I am an American who purchased a filly from Ireland, Eddy Corbett specifically...and now have 8 purebreds. It sounds like many of you would be horrified to hear that many of us in North America went to Ireland and Great Britain to deliberately purchase traditional type Irish Draughts. We deliberately purchased stallions and mares of diverse bloodlines, most deliberately avoided King of Diamonds and Clover Hill (for reasons of diversity). Many of us were looking for a very competent, sane, sound, athletic, all-purpose horse and not a top level jumper or eventer. I think it is safe to say that nearly all of us have been surprised at the athletic ability of the traditional type Irish Draughts as if you read posts like the one here you would come away thinking that the sole reason for the demise of the Irish Sport Horse is the taint of the Irish Draught blood in their veins. I have Irish Draughts, I know this is stinkin' thinkin'.

Far more benefit would be found for Irish Sport Horse breeders if they looked to themselves for the problems they have found competing with the continental warmblood. Marketing of horses by breeders is really terrible. In this internet world they have fallen seriously behind. To try to get photos from an Irish breeder is painful. Then the quality of the photos indicates the amount of effort the breeder put into the photos. Then they have a whole nuther price for Americans...we don't like that. The polished presentation of the continental warmblood is not just more pleasant to see but it is easier to see what you need to to make a decision. The quality of video a purchaser needs to see is a far cry from what I am seeing. Walk and canter and jump...no trot...not only is dressage the "D" word in Ireland but trot is the "T" word. Never seen or spoken of.

The level of training a young horse has recieved...you are pretty well able to judge the basics and even go right into the show ring with a German warmblood from the sale barns in Europe, Their trainers and riders are so well developed that the horses they produce are much easier to market...you need to develop the training of trainers to improve the "D" basics, the horses you have bred are very capable dressage horses. They can develop a show record without going 100 miles away from home base...so can you. They have breeders who specialize in stallions, owners who speciallize in producing foals, who specialize in youngsters, who specialize in, finished dressage, finished eventer, finished jumpers, riders who only compete at the top levels...you USED to do this but the education of the riders seemed to stall.

In America we have SUCH great distances and we are finding it very expensive to produce horses like the Germans and the Dutch. In Ireland you COULD have an advantage but the level of education you need to produce horses competitive with continental warmloods seems to be ignored...easier to blame the Draught blood than shake up your rider education system, make a marketing plan, create good photos and videos, deal with the flat work("D") phobia. There is no reason the ISH shouldn't stay on top of the eventing world but the standard of gaits will be higher...the Irish Draught can have a wonderful trot and brain for dressage you needn't seek out a warmblood to improve a TB trot or dressage performance. Stop ruining the Irish Draught to "improve" the ISH. You would not be dealing with the real problem in Ireland and you would lose an asset. PatO
 
Yes I think we do appreciate the quality of the RID as an all purpose riding horse and there's nothing better that an Irish bred to cross country with-in my opinion!

On a different note what think ye of the new Irish warmblood studbooks?I've said this before but i really don't see the point of separate studbooks for 'continental' bred Irish horses. Why not just improve the grading system of the ISH studbook? I think the traffic light system is a great idea, an open and transparent grading process that rightly rewards the good horse.

So why the extra studbooks? Why does anyone feel the ISH is not sufficent? Is it not just a pointless name for the sake of the 'warmblood' tag and a few extra €€€'s?
I'm open to enlightenment!!
 
I have to say I agree with Merry Path. The marketing of Irish horses is terrible. It is really hard to get good pictures of stallions standing in Ireland, never mind videos. The same can be said of sale horses. Venues like Cavan, Goresbridge etc should have videos attached, also there should be much better sales sites. I live in the States and people will travel if they know what they are going to see. The German/French marketing is sooo much better. The standard of riding is so much higher also. In the case of German dressage horses they are all working in a frame and doing flying changes, shoulder in etc. Irish horses are more than capable of doing all these things but they need to be produced. Instead a picture is offered, the horse is lucky to have had a bath.
 
Bootsod said:
<SNIP> I live in the States and people will travel if they know what they are going to see. The German/French marketing is sooo much better. The standard of riding is so much higher also. In the case of German dressage horses they are all working in a frame and doing flying changes, shoulder in etc. Irish horses are more than capable of doing all these things but they need to be produced. Instead a picture is offered, the horse is lucky to have had a bath.
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There is a portion of the US horse buyer segment that will pay more for that "imported" label, and then pay the freight ($10,000-$15,000 for a mature horse) to do the shipping and quarantine to get said overpriced animal over here on top of that! Thus, the separate pricing points for US buyers that Merrypath mentions are well-earned by us, I think :)

Honestly, you all may just keep on with the lackluster marketing - it will help us out! We have some outstanding IDSH horses coming up now on this side of the Atlantic, and it would help to sell our own if yours were A: too darn pricey, and, B: presented poorly.

Hey Bootsod, in what part of the US are you living?
 
This is what I love about this thread, it ebbs and flows and introduces a different dynamic almost every day!!

Well when I was visiting with an esteemed ID inspector the other evening, he was telling of a super young ID that was purchased from the USA by an Irish breeder and when he was presented to the Irish Society was not passed. It seemed to him that politics had a large part to play. The fact he was not passed is not relevant to the point I wish to make, it is only made to say a person who is looking for a good horse of a given type/breed will travel anywhere to purchase that animal. I am sure this was not the first and won't be the last Irish horse purchased from America - it works both ways.

>Production and marketing - agreed absolutely no contest with Europe or USA.

>Riders of quality, style and experience to bring on the new wave of Irish horses - completely lacking. We need multi-disciplinary riders who are able to show every young horse jumping basic courses, competent flatwork for age and a few cross country fences thrown in. I have never expected less off any horse that I go out to purchase as a "made" horse, all rounder or showjumper.

Too many riders training horses are not educated in the basics and it is fast turnover "quick fix" stuff . They think training a young horse in show jumping is to get it going with its neck bent into its chest and doing flying changes, no development of the trot or walk. If it jumps a course of fences trailing its hocks out behind it, behind the bit - job done. (Rant over -seen it too many times).

I don't think anybody is looking at the "ruination" of Draught Horses, there has been a lot of politics between the draught people especially regarding performance testing. As an all-rounder type and a foundation breed, I believe a draught should jump in assessments within the parameters set for its breed - clearly a Draught will not be asked to jump 1.30 or 1.40 under saddle or down a jumping lane (although many would be capable) instead they should be able to show technique and style over 1.0m say for potential mare owners or buyers. There seem to be many more lighter-boned more performance orientated draughts here than ever before. I asked the question "do we have any draught horses in this country that have 10.5 inches of bone" to an expert - he thought hard and said maybe one or two!!! (Ref to Adbarr's lovely stallion):).
 
Irishlife said:
This is what I love about this thread, it ebbs and flows and introduces a different dynamic almost every day!!

Well when I was visiting with an esteemed ID inspector the other evening, he was telling of a super young ID that was purchased from the USA by an Irish breeder and when he was presented to the Irish Society was not passed. It seemed to him that politics had a large part to play.

<SNIP>

I don't think anybody is looking at the "ruination" of Draught Horses, there has been a lot of politics between the draught people especially regarding performance testing. As an all-rounder type and a foundation breed, I believe a draught should jump in assessments within the parameters set for its breed - clearly a Draught will not be asked to jump 1.30 or 1.40 under saddle or down a jumping lane (although many would be capable) instead they should be able to show technique and style over 1.0m say for potential mare owners or buyers. There seem to be many more lighter-boned more performance orientated draughts here than ever before. I asked the question "do we have any draught horses in this country that have 10.5 inches of bone" to an expert - he thought hard and said maybe one or two!!! (Ref to Adbarr's lovely stallion):).
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Was this stallion you mentioned the lovely chestnut with white socks, who was inspected and passed as RID in the USA? Then sold to Ireland, and graded down to S-1 upon his Irish inspection? Yes, that was a very odd situation to say the very least. That particular horse had won the RDS Championship shortly prior to his re-inspection and disapproval. Things that make you go "Hmmmm."

When my husband and I first "got into" Irish horses, we had not seen enough of them to realize that what we were being shown as "great examples" were, in fact, lighter than the breed standard and more of a sporthorse model - or as it's put in some circles, a "modern type" of ID horse. We have since educated ourselves better, hence our search for and purchase of the stallion we presently own and love. He's quite a traditional type, with a great set of pure clean gaits and a nice big jump - nice technique too. And yes, that 10.5 inch cannon is for real - he's actually a bit over that, but I'm not quibbling. Just very pleased he stopped growing when he did, as grooming while teetering on a bucket is strenuous.
Hopefully this summer I can actually haul my creaking carcass aboard and actually RIDE him :) if not show - money is an object this year.

Oh, and it's AdAblurr - reference a dearly loved old TB gelding of ours :)
 
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