Happy Days For ISH Breeders

[brianreid]

i feel that young horses should be given the chance to mature into there own frame. Look at lissava stud with the stallion contador they did very littles shows with him as a 4 year old due to his size, They did not ask the q's until he was readi. I believe that the young horses in ireland should be judged on there protenial to become high class preformance horse and judge on ability not hight. I believe at for certain class we need judge who understand the grading of young horses. To many irish judge base a lot on results. But pretty dont won.

 

[Irishlife]

Agree with you Brian, our more mature sorts our typical half bred hunters are well able to hunt a few half days at 3 and ride on at 4. The rest with a bit more blood take longer I find with mine that are usually 7/8 or 3/4 TB with a dollop of warmblood and ID don't grow into themselves until five or six so any going jumping will do "little league" 90's and 1m in the winter of their 4th year plus hunter trials. The more mature four yo's do hunter classes in the summer for education.

Those four year olds jumping in the qualifiers are judged on style, scope, approach, technique and not speed. Fastest way to blow up a four year old is to ride him when he is not mature or balanced/schooled enough too fast and ask too many questions that they don't have the answers to.

I saw some shocking shameful rides in the 4yo qualifiers this year. A lot of riders could use 6 months decent flatwork and develop their own skills. ON the other side of the coin, there were others who were a pleasure to watch.

As I have said and many others have said, there is no point producing horses of impeccable breeding, scope and talent if there is nobody able to produce them correctly and develop them with discipline, accuracy and time. There are many brilliant nagsmen that can hunt any kind of horse around a course four weeks after breaking but this raw (and sometimes damaged) horse is not what the market wants or needs.

The problem with producing a correct well schooled horse is the time it takes but I do think the rewards are there when it is done well. I know from experience this is so but at the same time you have to hold your nerve as there is way more stacked against you than someone turning a horse around quick. If a horse does a leg - game over. However, the right quality horse with the right early education will always sell at the right money.

We will never be as disciplined as the continentals, that is not in our nature and there is still way too much uneducated horse training here such as "making the mouth" which can be standing for a couple of hours in a stable with a bit and side reins on to being turned out in a field with a bit in for a couple of weeks.

Swings and roundabouts, we need to up our game producing definitely but that will require a shift in thinking from turning horses over quickly and getting them riding in time for Goresbridge to looking at the longer term.

Will it happen - unlikely.

 

[Alec Swan]

Irishlife,

what a thought provoking post.

Alec.

 

[gadetra]

Wow . Buliadh bós mhór to Eothain and Irishlife. Ye are dead right.
Irishlife I think we definately have the riding talent-but as you say the disipline is missing.
Eothain I think you have every right to air your opinions as this is what a forum is for. And I am not alone in finding them interesting!!

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

It's like anything really some horses can handle being 4yo jumpers and some cannot. And yes, really important to have a good jockey on board who can actually produce a young horse without ruining them. I only just sent my 4yo away last month for show jumping training. I broke her at 2 and spent 6 weeks with her and ending with my walking around on the lead on her back. I weight 100pds so I'm pretty sure she wasn't harmed. Brought her back at 3 and spent the summer with her then off again. This year she got started late as I was moving, blah, blah blah, but really she wasn't mature enough mentally to handle what she is capable of handling now. I wanted her to be more forward and jumping classes this year, but it wasn't to be.

I have also found an amazing trainer/rider who brings horses along the right way. And being how she's out of a TB mare and not everyone's cup of tea, I know I found the right person for her. Plus he is close by so I can visit often. My mare is by Tadmus just in case anyone is interested.

Terri

 

[Alec Swan]

E_I,

for many years I earned a living with gundogs. The temptation to push the most promising, and forward was always there, and I learnt from my mistakes. They say with dogs, that it takes months to make, and minutes to ruin, and I suspect, that this is broadly true with young equines.

The need to earn a living, is a yoke which most of wear, sadly. Perhaps those horses which appear to mature physically, and at an early age, have too much asked of them, and the fortunate ones, those which are late to mature, from a mental viewpoint, are the most fortunate. They may be given the one thing which most of us lack, time. Don't know!! Just a thought.

Alec.

 

[magic104]

Im not a fan of starting them at 2yrs, no matter how big. Thats not to say I would not lean across, or even long rein, but I would not ride them at all. I dont believe in working them in circles at that age either. When I was younger it was impressed on me that hopefully a horse should have a long working life, why start it at 2yrs. All the horses that passed through them were worked at the animals pace. I suppose though that some producers are not interested in the later life of an animal, there not the ones paying the bills.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Well I can assure you she was not traumatised by my starting her early nor does she have any joint issues. Everything has been done at a pace she can handle. Everyone has a different opinion. Started hundreds of horses and by far the worst were the "well handled" 4 yo's. Meaning spoiled rotten pookie who does what he wants but leads and stands for farrier. Zilch work ethic and have the hardest time learning. The words in work can mean many different things. Moderation and listening to the horse means you shouldn't have problems. If you go to YouTube and type in breathtaking by tadmus you will see she was not a scrawny 2 yo.

 

[magic104]

Well I can assure you she was not traumatised by my starting her early nor does she have any joint issues. Everything has been done at a pace she can handle. Everyone has a different opinion. Started hundreds of horses and by far the worst were the "well handled" 4 yo's. Meaning spoiled rotten pookie who does what he wants but leads and stands for farrier. Zilch work ethic and have the hardest time learning. The words in work can mean many different things. Moderation and listening to the horse means you shouldn't have problems. If you go to YouTube and type in breathtaking by tadmus you will see she was not a scrawny 2 yo.

My concern is that a lot of people who may not have your experience & may not actually listen to their horses, will think it ok to start 2yo's. There are a lot of people out there that think they have what it takes to start a youngster & dont spend money on a professsional. All they see is posts from people saying it is ok & does them no harm. TBH how does anyone really know, because just how many horses stay with their starter right through their lives. How many people start their youngsters, sell them on, loose touch & therefore have no idea what sort of problems they encounter? We can only be guided by those that have done studies on subjects like growth plates & horse development. Im sorry that my views upset a lot of trainers who start 2yos, but the majority of the time it comes down to money. I already posted about the Brightwell sales & what the 3yos were doing. I was not the only one who felt perhaps I was giving my youngster too much time. But then I look at him & previous photos & no, he was still growing into himself & there is no way he could of balanced himself correctly with a rider at 2yrs. Many horses have been started at 2, for years now, I really dont think this is going to change. I was just voicing my feeling on the subject.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Magic,

Not jumping on you at all, just trying to say that if you take your time it can be done right, and then again all horses aren't suited to start at 2 either. Just so dependant on many different factors. Abba's brother for instance, I didn't start til he was 3 but he was a completely different horse. Abba kind of needed some different perspectives on life to keep her mind occupied!

 

[merrypath]

When we look at the continental warmblood model there are several elements that make them successful. There is often a lot of seperation between the mare they wish to breed and the horse jumping at top level. Each level has opportunities for market success. There is an industry producing stallions. The farmers keeping the mares...selling the foals while still young...a young horses producer who keeps them to the next market level when they are ready to be backed or selling just after they are backed...then the better horses are bought by those who develop talent...then they are sold to their primary competition home. Each of these levels is well respected and well known. You can go and see many horses at the level you are looking to fill with young stock.

In days past the Irish sent their horses to the sales or fairs and they were bought by the dealers in other countries. Their papers disappeared...their heritage was lost...the credit to the breeders gone. No one could go back to the breeder and look for a brother to the horse that impressed so much.

You need to build the infrastructure. Now Ireland is cut off from the middle market. American buying trips go to large yards in Germany and with the Dutch and they see many horses of the type they want. Germans and the Dutch now know very well what the American hunter buyers want...even if they don't like it a top horse brings too much money to ignore. Americans don't like auctions. The Irish have a country the size of West Virginia and it should be a piece of cake to hit several big yards but the Irish think 60 miles is like going across an ocean. Americans haven't even gotten to the other side of town in 60 miles. Build the infrastructure...it makes jobs...educates young riders...prepares them for the upper levels competing on the Irish horses they brought along. PatO

 

[GrassHorse]

In days past the Irish sent their horses to the sales or fairs and they were bought by the dealers in other countries. Their papers disappeared...their heritage was lost...the credit to the breeders gone. No one could go back to the breeder and look for a brother to the horse that impressed so much.

PatO

This was a big problem. Alot of the european dealers who were buying in Ireland and selling them abroad did not pass on the papers/passport. I know of one very famous swiss buyer who was adament that no one in Switzerland would know where the horses he sourced came from, he would not dare give over breeder details.

Alot of Irish breeders have no idea about how well related their mares are. This will change in time. I think the new database www.horseandbreeder.com will help change this.

 

[corinnehyde]

Hiya,

I'm very interested reading those posts.

I have a 2001 mare out of Trump Carder. Shes a great 1.30m horse and super against the clock. I would love to hear anymore information about Trump Carder.

 

[magic104]

Hi, have you seen this link?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=ADslpb&d=Trump+Carder&x=14&y=14

 

[AdAblurr]

<SNIP>

Alot of Irish breeders have no idea about how well related their mares are. This will change in time. I think the new database www.horseandbreeder.com will help change this.

Went to link. Typed "Touch of the Blues" into the search box and hit enter.
Got two returns, oddly. One's a gelding by a warmblood named Touchdown. The other purports to be THE Touch of the Blues RID. Data is woefully incomplete, on an arguably very famous representative of his breed. It appears that this is a database in need of a LOT of input before it's worth anything - http://www.sporthorse-data.com is a better source of info, IMHO.

 

[seabsicuit2]

Hiya,

I'm very interested reading those posts.

I have a 2001 mare out of Trump Carder. Shes a great 1.30m horse and super against the clock. I would love to hear anymore information about Trump Carder.

She must be super!! They say that Trump Carder is one of the best broodmares in Ireland& from the best motherline there is. TC has produced multiple Grade A sj Stallions with a range of different sires- the full range is not shown on the sporthorse database.

I think you have quite a valuable broodmare there! If you wanted more info ring Carmel Ryan/ Paeder Muller

Someone one here has a Trump carder stallion son, Grade A- their user name escapes me tho!

This is a link to another Trump Carder son-
http://www.breenequestrian.com/Images/services/Royal-Concorde-Stud-Card.pdf

 

[magic104]

Hiya,

I'm very interested reading those posts.

I have a 2001 mare out of Trump Carder. Shes a great 1.30m horse and super against the clock. I would love to hear anymore information about Trump Carder.

Hi, have you seen this link?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=A...rder&x=14&y=14

 

[Eothain]

Trump Carder has a daughter by Olympic Lux who is annoying fast against the clock ...

 

[wigum]

Just read an interesting article:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/recipe-top-event-horse-calls-brain-brawn-beauty-and-breeding

Master Imp may yet have a stallion son worth noticing. Full brother to Mandiba and High Kingdom. Out of a sucessful mare high dolly. The injury will probably make him orange on the HSI traffic light system but the best bred son of master imp that I am aware of.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?0=dummy&i=10511200&ad_session=5nZQfb

 

[firm]

Trump Carder's dam who was very good, goes back to the TB Seven Bells as does the dam of Jumbo but I don't think I have ever seen anything written about Seven Bells? It is a bit historical but would love to know about him.

 

[tristar]

i remember seven bells, many years ago sire of hunters, eventers.
loved the irish horse river foyle when i saw him compete, how is he bred?
watched a dvd of cento competeing last night, he jumps with the enthuisiasm and agility of a pony!
saw son of chambertin, chacco blue at stallion demo very impressive, but then so was the rider, alois pollman. both are of the op's list of stallions.

 

[wigum]

loved the irish horse river foyle when i saw him compete, how is he bred?

River Foyle is by Cavalier and out of a mare by Cruising. His half brother Lough Foyle is also jumping with the army and he is by Touchdown.

 

[tristar]

thank you!

 

[wigum]

Carmena Z is now being offered by Zangersheide stud in 2011. That is a great compliment to the Ryans. Congratulations to them, I hope he goes on to be a top stallion aswell as a top horse.

http://www.zangersheide.com/en/

 

[no_no_nanette]

Carmena Z is now being offered by Zangersheide stud in 2011. That is a great compliment to the Ryans. Congratulations to them, I hope he goes on to be a top stallion aswell as a top horse.

http://www.zangersheide.com/en/

They have been such an incredibly positive influence on the breeding of ISH over a long period of time - I love Royal Concorde, who's standing at Cullintra with Peadar Murphy this year; another one of the Ryans, I think?

 

[gadetra]

Just thought I'd add something along the lines of what this thread was originally about-foreign stallions yeahie or nay.. This is a quote from Nicholas O hare on the subject of foreign stallions in the ISH studbook from his book on Clover Hill. I think it sums things up rather nicely:
"The arguments about foreign stallions are a distraction [From why Ireland has slid down the WSBH showjumping rankings]. They are here and we shall have to accept the fact. However, while traditionalists might decry the influx we must take stock of the good points. The good foreignsires have done well by their supporters. There have been showring winners bred from Irish mares, there are foreign sires in teh mares selected for teh Premier Mare scheme, there have been quality foals and performance foals notably by Cavalier Royale which have gone out and battled for Irelnad in the showjumping arenas of the world. No, the foreign sire is not all bad, but it would have been nice to have done without him"
Very eloquently put and a realistic view on the debate I think!

 

[Irishlife]

Well Amen to that!!!

Very succinct and I guess pretty much how many Irish Breeders feel. I must say I am extremely grateful for the dash of Furisto in my mares who has put the spring in a lot of my youngsters and very much looking forward to seeing how my Lux Z out of a Master Imp dam performs this year.

 

[Eothain]

I think that sums it up nicely!

 

[firm]

I think it does too! LOL Does that mean after 78 pages Gadetra has put it in one post?

 

[Maesfen]

I think it does too! LOL Does that mean after 78 pages Gadetra has put it in one post?

Ah but look at the fun and information we would have missed. Even now, this is still one of my favourite threads.

Change your options, mine is only 20 pages long, much more manageable.