Simsar
Well-Known Member
Anything to add??
Happy Days For ISH Breeders
- Thread starter Eothain
- Start date
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
Simsar,
to add, no, but to ask, most certainly. So often through that simply fascinating thread, which I have to tell you I still miss, the thoughts of others ebbed and flowed. I had a question, but somehow, the time never seemed right.
It's this; "How are 'Mare Lines' formed"?, and perhaps importantly, what are they? So often, and I'm sure correctly, we're told that the mare is of equal, if not greater importance than the stallion. Just about every breeding discussion revolves around the stallion. The mares only ever seem to receive a cursory mention. Why?
My particular interest would be to breed successful event horses. It seems to me that to reduce the lottery effect, we need a similar system to that used within the TB industry, namely, sound advice. It needs to go a step further than hypothesising about the "possible" results of a breeding plan.
I accept that within the racing industry, the results of theory are sooner evaluated. Those horses which race tend to reward the more thoughtful matings, within two or three years. Sport horses, from which ever discipline, only seem to show results by the age of seven, or eight years onwards.
Mare lines? What are they, and how are they decided upon? "That might work", wont do, surely.
Thank you, Simsar!
Alec.
to add, no, but to ask, most certainly. So often through that simply fascinating thread, which I have to tell you I still miss, the thoughts of others ebbed and flowed. I had a question, but somehow, the time never seemed right.
It's this; "How are 'Mare Lines' formed"?, and perhaps importantly, what are they? So often, and I'm sure correctly, we're told that the mare is of equal, if not greater importance than the stallion. Just about every breeding discussion revolves around the stallion. The mares only ever seem to receive a cursory mention. Why?
My particular interest would be to breed successful event horses. It seems to me that to reduce the lottery effect, we need a similar system to that used within the TB industry, namely, sound advice. It needs to go a step further than hypothesising about the "possible" results of a breeding plan.
I accept that within the racing industry, the results of theory are sooner evaluated. Those horses which race tend to reward the more thoughtful matings, within two or three years. Sport horses, from which ever discipline, only seem to show results by the age of seven, or eight years onwards.
Mare lines? What are they, and how are they decided upon? "That might work", wont do, surely.
Thank you, Simsar!
Alec.
Eothain
Well-Known Member
Wow, it seems like this thread will never die, even though I tried to put it to sleep ages ago!
Mare lines? What are mare lines?
The best example of a successful mare line that I use when explaining them is the Selle Francais mare Tanagra.
She was by the Thoroughbred stallion Furioso and was the mother of Jalisco B when she was crossed with the wonderful stallion Alme. When crossed with the Thoroughbred stallion Night And Day she produced Geisha N, the dam of the Galoubet sired stallion Ephebe For Ever. Then when Tanagra was crossed with Galoubet sired by Alme, she produced Quanagra who in turn was crossed with the Trakenher stallion Abdullah and produced the stallion Cabdula Du Tillard.
Now this mare, Tanagra, was responsible though entirely by herself, for quite a sizeable proportion of France's best horses. Many of the world's best horses have her in their pedigree.
So what worked for her? Well clearly she was an exceptional mare before she was ever bred from. Her mother Delicieuse, by Jus de Pomme, was a jumping winner in her own right. So Tanagra was born with a purpose, there was performance in her breeding already.
The stallion Night And Day was a producer of many fine competition horses and when crossed with Tanagra produced the International performers Danoso and Escurial as well as the afforementioned Geisha N who was a national and international Grand Prix winner with Jeannou Lefebvre and my own favourite French rider, Eric Navet in her own right.
Galoubet A was Fountainbleau Champion as a five year old and went to International level at seven years of age so needless to say he was a stallion that was fit for a mare like Tanagra. Their daughter Quanagra produced Viking Du Tillard the 1996 Olympian and Cabdula Du Tillard, international showjumper and hugely popular French stallion.
What can I say about Alme that will do him justice? Anyway, he was crossed with Tanagra and produced Jalisco B who went on to produce some ... pretty[/] ... useful horses!!!
So! Where was I then? Mare lines! What are they? In my opinion, they should be a succesion of very good performing mothers and daughters who have very good performing stallions as sires.
The above example of that wonderful mare Tanagra gives some insight in to what a successful mare line is. A mother who could jump and pass on the good genes to a bunch of sons and daughters who could jump and pass on the good genes to a bunch of sons and daughters etc etc etc
The daughters can't just be covered with any random stallion though, there must be performance from him too for the cycle to continue and improve.
I'm waiting for the Draught brigade to flame me now for using a dirty word like performance or jump and tell about the exceptional cases where performance sires and dams haven't produced performance progeny!!!
I hope this made sense Alec
Mare lines? What are mare lines?
The best example of a successful mare line that I use when explaining them is the Selle Francais mare Tanagra.
She was by the Thoroughbred stallion Furioso and was the mother of Jalisco B when she was crossed with the wonderful stallion Alme. When crossed with the Thoroughbred stallion Night And Day she produced Geisha N, the dam of the Galoubet sired stallion Ephebe For Ever. Then when Tanagra was crossed with Galoubet sired by Alme, she produced Quanagra who in turn was crossed with the Trakenher stallion Abdullah and produced the stallion Cabdula Du Tillard.
Now this mare, Tanagra, was responsible though entirely by herself, for quite a sizeable proportion of France's best horses. Many of the world's best horses have her in their pedigree.
So what worked for her? Well clearly she was an exceptional mare before she was ever bred from. Her mother Delicieuse, by Jus de Pomme, was a jumping winner in her own right. So Tanagra was born with a purpose, there was performance in her breeding already.
The stallion Night And Day was a producer of many fine competition horses and when crossed with Tanagra produced the International performers Danoso and Escurial as well as the afforementioned Geisha N who was a national and international Grand Prix winner with Jeannou Lefebvre and my own favourite French rider, Eric Navet in her own right.
Galoubet A was Fountainbleau Champion as a five year old and went to International level at seven years of age so needless to say he was a stallion that was fit for a mare like Tanagra. Their daughter Quanagra produced Viking Du Tillard the 1996 Olympian and Cabdula Du Tillard, international showjumper and hugely popular French stallion.
What can I say about Alme that will do him justice? Anyway, he was crossed with Tanagra and produced Jalisco B who went on to produce some ... pretty[/] ... useful horses!!!
So! Where was I then? Mare lines! What are they? In my opinion, they should be a succesion of very good performing mothers and daughters who have very good performing stallions as sires.
The above example of that wonderful mare Tanagra gives some insight in to what a successful mare line is. A mother who could jump and pass on the good genes to a bunch of sons and daughters who could jump and pass on the good genes to a bunch of sons and daughters etc etc etc
The daughters can't just be covered with any random stallion though, there must be performance from him too for the cycle to continue and improve.
I'm waiting for the Draught brigade to flame me now for using a dirty word like performance or jump and tell about the exceptional cases where performance sires and dams haven't produced performance progeny!!!
I hope this made sense Alec
Simsar
Well-Known Member
Eothain I think you are very right in what you say and maybe here in lies the problem with the draughts and Irish Sport horses, I have tried to research alot of the good mare lines and find it hard to get the info that I require, sure there are a few(Gowran Betty, Trump Carder, Queen of Trumps etc Funnily all sired by a son of Errigal though!) but most of them have incomplete pedigrees that you would not find in Europe and also did not compete themselves so you therefor have to wait to find out whether there youngstock will be able to.
You are right when you said earlier in the post that the Europeans are years ahead of us, but this is because they follow a strict breeding program that Ireland doesn't and they also have have specialists in each field (breeding, production, competeing etc)
Not sure where I am going with this atm.. will leave it a hour have a coffee and wake up then come back to it.
You are right when you said earlier in the post that the Europeans are years ahead of us, but this is because they follow a strict breeding program that Ireland doesn't and they also have have specialists in each field (breeding, production, competeing etc)
Not sure where I am going with this atm.. will leave it a hour have a coffee and wake up then come back to it.
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
The dead has risen! Allelujah!!!
magic104
Well-Known Member
We go on about mares proving their performance, yet when did Tanagra have time? She was born in 1963 & had foals from the age of 4. Beau Prince IV 1967, Cantilene 1968, Danoso 1969, Escurial 1970, Geishan N 1972, Icone 1974, Jalisco B 1975, Kioto II 1976, Maharanee 1978, Nykias 1979, Oviedo II 1980, Quanagra 1982, Ruyblas 1983. Tanagra had at least 2 full sisters Scheherazade & Venus D along with 2 full brothers, Phebus & Ukamarua were they also sucessful?
I only ask because if she never competed herself, how does anyone know she would have stayed sound, or got to international level? By the time her 1st born was showing his ability she had produced 4 more. Yet time and again on here posters state how important it is for the mare to have proved herself as a performance mare, when cleary that is not the case. This mare I would say was far more sucessful then most stallions harped on about because statistically she has a higher strike rate. Look at how many offspring she has produced compared to the stallions that covered her. Also I am sure it helped that they were also then produced in a way that utilised their abilities.
No doubt the UK & Ireland have missed out because of their lacksie daisy attitude to keeping records. How many unnamed TB's have gone on to perform or produce performers, but the pedigrees have been lost? It can be a pain tracing through bloodlines when horses names are changed/altered. It means that though you have things like sporthorse database, NED etc data is still missing, a stallion or mare for that instance can be recorded twice or more with offspring spread across them. NED is full of performance horses who are unlinked to their offspring. They state this is because "all our datacomes from the various authorised issuing organisations and we aremerely a window to their data. Any discrepancies actually lie with theseorganisations, but NED is continuing to endeavour to assist theseorganisations in resolving these discrepancies." Yet the BE will show sire & dam on their website, but the records on NED dont?? Then you have the VII issue that comes with NTR reg horses, if BE or NED dont show the NTR recorded name in full it can be difficult again to tie this horse in with all its offspring. Therefore it has been struggle to pin down the best performing mares & their offspring, or even keep track of bloodlines.
I only ask because if she never competed herself, how does anyone know she would have stayed sound, or got to international level? By the time her 1st born was showing his ability she had produced 4 more. Yet time and again on here posters state how important it is for the mare to have proved herself as a performance mare, when cleary that is not the case. This mare I would say was far more sucessful then most stallions harped on about because statistically she has a higher strike rate. Look at how many offspring she has produced compared to the stallions that covered her. Also I am sure it helped that they were also then produced in a way that utilised their abilities.
No doubt the UK & Ireland have missed out because of their lacksie daisy attitude to keeping records. How many unnamed TB's have gone on to perform or produce performers, but the pedigrees have been lost? It can be a pain tracing through bloodlines when horses names are changed/altered. It means that though you have things like sporthorse database, NED etc data is still missing, a stallion or mare for that instance can be recorded twice or more with offspring spread across them. NED is full of performance horses who are unlinked to their offspring. They state this is because "all our datacomes from the various authorised issuing organisations and we aremerely a window to their data. Any discrepancies actually lie with theseorganisations, but NED is continuing to endeavour to assist theseorganisations in resolving these discrepancies." Yet the BE will show sire & dam on their website, but the records on NED dont?? Then you have the VII issue that comes with NTR reg horses, if BE or NED dont show the NTR recorded name in full it can be difficult again to tie this horse in with all its offspring. Therefore it has been struggle to pin down the best performing mares & their offspring, or even keep track of bloodlines.
Eothain
Well-Known Member
Ok, well, eh I know nothing about NED. We don't have anything like it in Ireland. SURPRISE!!!!
As for Tanagra, well her mother jumped internationally and I know her full brother Phebus jumped internationally so she didn't have to because the family she came from was already successful.
I know that in Ireland there's a full sister to the Dublin Grand Prix winner Mo Chroi breeding while Mo Chroi keeps jumping. I don't know the sister's name but why would she have to bother jumping? The family is already successful.
Different for a mare who comes from a family that never performed, they might have never been asked to perform or whatever but they need to prove themselves and prove their worth somehow.
And what's more, not all horses have to retire sound before embarking on a breeding career. Accidents happen and whatnot and people get thrown curve balls. We can't throw away our best jumping genes because they might not have stayed 100% sound all the way through their career.
As for Tanagra, well her mother jumped internationally and I know her full brother Phebus jumped internationally so she didn't have to because the family she came from was already successful.
I know that in Ireland there's a full sister to the Dublin Grand Prix winner Mo Chroi breeding while Mo Chroi keeps jumping. I don't know the sister's name but why would she have to bother jumping? The family is already successful.
Different for a mare who comes from a family that never performed, they might have never been asked to perform or whatever but they need to prove themselves and prove their worth somehow.
And what's more, not all horses have to retire sound before embarking on a breeding career. Accidents happen and whatnot and people get thrown curve balls. We can't throw away our best jumping genes because they might not have stayed 100% sound all the way through their career.
wigum
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to speculate on the exact reason why pedigrees weren't tracked closely over here. There are plenty of tales of horses sent to the stallion down the road and then the offspring being sold at a fair as 'believed to be by cavalier' etc but no book to prove it. Anyway whatever the reasons for this, it has done untold damage.
I have to commend HSI for a few things but the main one I can see them doing is that at every event i have been to organised them lately information evenings about mare gradings etc. they have banged the drum of performance mare lines.
At the finals of the HSI showjumping series they created a handbook very similar in layout to a sales catalog at TB sales. At the top it had a breakdown of the horses pedigree. Below that it had a breakdown of what the Dam, 2nd Dam and 3rd Dam had done themselves and what they had produced.
It was a pretty obvious example of what was right and wrong with breeding in Ireland. There was a high number of horses qualified with incomplete 3 generation pedigrees, horses with 3 generations of pedigree but no performance or performing offspring of the dam, 2nd dam or third dam. There was a horse there that was bred to be a jumper when the dam has produced a very well known 4* eventer.
Then there were little Gems showing the value of a really good mare line.
Milano - a half brother to a horse who has jumped at lanaken as a 5 and 6 year old, his second dam bred Lord Clare who jumped internationally.
BP blondey - Full brother to Dorada (prolific winner of classes international including Dublin, Aachen & Hickstead) half brother to Camblin (international jumper) whose second dam bred a 1.20/1.30 horse.
More of these things need to be done to highlight the value to onlookers of a true performance pedigrees based on the mares and not the old chestnut hes a Cavalier x Cloverhill x King of diamonds hes bound to be a jumper when everything for three generations of that original mare had soundness issues or couldnt jump out of their own way.
gadetra
Well-Known Member
I have another slightly different question.
I went to the seminar in Dublin this year after the stallion parade about :'the emergence of a pan european studbook versus individual studboooks' or something like that. The hannovarian and Holstein guys jus talked about their studbooks with no mention of the seminar question but the KWPN guy did mention it. He also judged the 3 yr old loose jumping as well and one of his comments was that we need to develop the croup and the back and this will not happen for 4 or 5 generations. At the seminar he said the same pretty much and that we were waaay behind the continentals performance and conformation wise. He judged the fillies higher than the colts and geldings as well so surely that's a good starting point at least?
Anyway, my question to him that I never got to ask, inspite of pointing up hand (it then finished before i got to ask!!)was what would he do to rectify this problem? What would he cross those 3 yr old fillies with to get the desired result? How would he go about organising this?
Mare lines are PARAMOUNT to the improvement of our sport horses, but he gave no answer as to what he would do to improve them.
Any thoughts? Do people agree or disagree?
I went to the seminar in Dublin this year after the stallion parade about :'the emergence of a pan european studbook versus individual studboooks' or something like that. The hannovarian and Holstein guys jus talked about their studbooks with no mention of the seminar question but the KWPN guy did mention it. He also judged the 3 yr old loose jumping as well and one of his comments was that we need to develop the croup and the back and this will not happen for 4 or 5 generations. At the seminar he said the same pretty much and that we were waaay behind the continentals performance and conformation wise. He judged the fillies higher than the colts and geldings as well so surely that's a good starting point at least?
Anyway, my question to him that I never got to ask, inspite of pointing up hand (it then finished before i got to ask!!)was what would he do to rectify this problem? What would he cross those 3 yr old fillies with to get the desired result? How would he go about organising this?
Mare lines are PARAMOUNT to the improvement of our sport horses, but he gave no answer as to what he would do to improve them.
Any thoughts? Do people agree or disagree?
gadetra
Well-Known Member
Also: Welcome back thread!!
Eothain
Well-Known Member
I was at that seminar too. I loved the way they were trying to say nice things about our horses!!! Where were you sitting? I wanted to ask a question as well!!!
gadetra
Well-Known Member
No way! I came in kind of late I was sitting on the right hand side kind of in the middle but there were only 2 people behind me, a blond guy and a dark haired girl? Where were u?
It was some race over after the parade wasn't it!!
Yeah they tried hard to say nice things about our horses...by not mentioning them and talking about their own!!
I thought the Honnovarian and Holstein guys were rude the way they talked through the KWPN guy's presentation-the most interesting one!
He got a bit of a boo at the 3yr old loose jumping for his comments but he was right really
It was some race over after the parade wasn't it!!
Yeah they tried hard to say nice things about our horses...by not mentioning them and talking about their own!!
I thought the Honnovarian and Holstein guys were rude the way they talked through the KWPN guy's presentation-the most interesting one!
He got a bit of a boo at the 3yr old loose jumping for his comments but he was right really
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Eothain
Well-Known Member
The blonde guy!
gadetra
Well-Known Member
Ha ha ha ha no way!! I think you were behind me then-my sister was sitting beside me to the outside and I was the one with the short hair on the inside!
HA ha that's mad. At least we can put faces to the posts now.Oh I'm Deborah by the way. (waves)
I didn't like how he gave no one the chance to ask questions. Suspicious.
Anyway what did you think about what he said?
And his prediction of how long it'll take to put 'right'? and the conformational problems he pointed out?
Anybody????
HA ha that's mad. At least we can put faces to the posts now.Oh I'm Deborah by the way. (waves)
I didn't like how he gave no one the chance to ask questions. Suspicious.
Anyway what did you think about what he said?
And his prediction of how long it'll take to put 'right'? and the conformational problems he pointed out?
Anybody????
GrassHorse
Well-Known Member
I was sitting front row right. I asked jacques Verkerk, kwpm guy, a couple of questions at the very end.
I asked him what stallions should we use on Irish mares?. He said we need more power and horses like Indoctro, Ustinov were good sires for power.
I also asked him what were the up and caoming young stallions in Holland? He said Baltic was good, I think he meant VDL Baltic.
And then a girl asked him what stallion would suit a mare with a lot of blood? He said Carthino z. We really picked his brains!
He said we should go look at the kwpn website where you can see the reports on all kwpn stallions. It gives scores on everything. We need this in Ireland.
I asked him what stallions should we use on Irish mares?. He said we need more power and horses like Indoctro, Ustinov were good sires for power.
I also asked him what were the up and caoming young stallions in Holland? He said Baltic was good, I think he meant VDL Baltic.
And then a girl asked him what stallion would suit a mare with a lot of blood? He said Carthino z. We really picked his brains!
He said we should go look at the kwpn website where you can see the reports on all kwpn stallions. It gives scores on everything. We need this in Ireland.
Navalgem
Well-Known Member
We need this in England too...... I wish more studbooks would follow the KWPN's example.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
In that statement, the problem may well lie. Accepting that there will be a higher degree of quirky behaviour from the female, than the male, in the ridden horse, the fact that a mare has breeding and that alone, would raise a question mark.
There will be those mares which are sweetness and light whilst you're on the ground, but a witch, when ridden, and then there are those which will be the reverse. I "think" that the reverse would make the better brood mare, and more likely to replicate herself. Do we not, after all, need a mare who would be more likely to produce a rideable animal, than one which wont?
By all means tell me that I'm wrong, but I suspect that the more able mare who has "demonstrated" her abilities, her scope, her acceptance of pressure, her power and her generally ridden demeanour, will be the mare to breed from. A year, or so ago, someone on this forum shouted at me "Breed from the best, and ride the rest". Did they have a point?
Again, tell me that I'm wrong, if you wish, but do you wonder if those mares which tick EVERY box, should be taken from competition and bred from? There must be many brood mares which have been taken out of competition, because you may just as well have tried riding a cow, and then used for breeding, but to what end?
When Ireland led the world, then the financial pressures were not so great. Today, I suspect, that a mare which can jump, REALY jump, will continue with her career within sport. Her sale price could fund a season for one or more other horses, or pay for a further range of boxes, and so, quite understandably, she's sold.
Are the ideal brood mares still being ridden, and not bred from? To draw from your last post...."but why should she have to bother jumping"...., would it not be to demonstrate that she actually can, and more importantly that she wants to?
I'm not contradicting others, I simply want to know!!
Alec.
JonnisSwe
Well-Known Member
True, however your horses are very cheap compared to the horses in Europe and particularly Sweden. Thats why we have lots of irish horses and ponnies here. Many goes to Ireland, buys 2-5 horses, goes back to Sweden and then sell the horses/ponnies for 2000-3000 pounds more.
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
Alec, I think these days they can actually do both. I remember Lucinda Fredericks commenting on the fact that on the year she won Badminton (or was it Burleigh - my brain's gone to mush), Headley Brittania had "had" 3 foals - by embryo transfer, obviously!
Gadetra, the KPWN guy's comment "that we need to develop the croup and the back and this will not happen for 4 or 5 generations" I think personally is spot on. I train a 4 year old gelding out of a really excellent IDxTB (no pedigree recorded at all - typical import from Ireland found in a field and brought to England with no papers!) by Suma Murphy's Law (RID I think). That horse is gorgeous, huge potential in every way, but clumsy as hell and a weak back end - looks more like a 2 year old than a 4 year old from the whithers back. I'm sure that with *a lot* of work and a bit of maturity, it will be ok, but he is certaily lacking in NATURAL strength in that area.
Eothain
Well-Known Member
In regards to each individual mare showing their own merit let me just say that if you've a mare that is out there competing and is a real top string horse, then she can't really be pulled from competition to go breeding unless there's a replacement for her.
If there is a younger sister, then happy days because the younger sister can go breeding while big sister continues to compete.
Embryo transfer still isn't widely practiced
If there is a younger sister, then happy days because the younger sister can go breeding while big sister continues to compete.
Embryo transfer still isn't widely practiced
gadetra
Well-Known Member
Sad but true. Sigh. I've sold mine to England and seen them turned around 6 months later for double the price. It's heartbreaking sometimes. But what can you do? Wait 6 months for a better price when you need the price of them to feed look after the one's you have left? It's very east start collecting them at that!
Hi Grasshorse *waves accross the room*
I agree that the Irish horse is somewhat weak accross the back, and this urgently needs to be addressed as it's one of the most important things to consider breeding a showjumper.
However, Irish horses take aaaaages to mature alonside their eurpoean counterparts and with maturity comes the power. I also think the Irish horse has a much better hindleg. I've seen to many continentals with straight hocks.
However conformationaly, the Irish horse is so much tougher than the warmblood. It's confirmation keeps it sounder and enables it to compete into older age than the warmblood. This toughness we cannot afford to lose. So where is the happy medium?
GrassHorse
Well-Known Member
I was carefully watching the continentals jumping in the big grand prix on sunday. It was really obvious what Jacques Verkerk was talking about. The continentals horses are bigger and have serious take off power. Even if they meet a big parralel a bit short, its no problem for them. Irish horses look a bit plain and weak in comparison.
Navalgem
Well-Known Member
Well perhaps but the continental breeding x'ed with 'typical' (please dont' shoot me!) Irish breeding works well. I challenge anyone who has seen 'Bob' to tell me he doesn't have scope and power. It definately works. He's a 6yo by Condios out of Timoneys Girl who is by Campaigner xx out of a mare by King of Diamonds.
gadetra
Well-Known Member
If the ISH is only required as a foundation breed (i.e. as a grandam etc.) to be crossed with a warmblood to produce performance then we may be looking at a serious decline of the Irish stamp. It'll be another ID like argument yikes!
So is the future a step away from individual studbooks/breeds and a step towards one homogenous 'type'? Bit extreme sorry but if you think about it...
So is the future a step away from individual studbooks/breeds and a step towards one homogenous 'type'? Bit extreme sorry but if you think about it...
Eothain
Well-Known Member
Don't see it happening. There'll never be a pan-European studbook because there's too many conflicting factors. By using different foreign lines to improve our own we'll keep a teeny tiny piece of tradition. But we shouldn't be bound to the past. The ID as a breed is dead to me. We should be bound not to the past but to the future.
Once the ISH studbook reaches #1 again in the WBFSH rankings, then the ends will have justified the means.
Once the ISH studbook reaches #1 again in the WBFSH rankings, then the ends will have justified the means.
GrassHorse
Well-Known Member
Hi Gadetra,
I think the Irish stamp will always be here. It wil only take one or two really popular WB x ISH stallions to keep the Irish stamp. Touchdown is evidence of this. Jack of Diamonds is getting really good mares and if his progeny perform well, then the whole country will head for lissava. Even if your ISH mare is by a warmblood you will essentially be adding more ISH than WB to the foal.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
GinnieRedwings,
exactly, we have 2 embryos in place and from an advanced mare. Frustratingly, this throws up yet another question. Are these advanced mares, NECESSARILY the way to go? Are there any early transfers which are now proving their worth? What would they be, 5-7 years?
Do the top class mares actually replicate themselves, in their offspring, accepting that the pairing was reasonably correct?
Are those hugely promising mares which have gone into breeding through injury, actually producing valued foals?
Eothain, I take it that were you spoilt for choice, then you would consider using the best mare, to breed with. It's obviously been done, so does anyone know of the results? Magic104, your research abilities seem to me to be remarkable. Do you have any light to throw on this?
Alec.
exactly, we have 2 embryos in place and from an advanced mare. Frustratingly, this throws up yet another question. Are these advanced mares, NECESSARILY the way to go? Are there any early transfers which are now proving their worth? What would they be, 5-7 years?
Do the top class mares actually replicate themselves, in their offspring, accepting that the pairing was reasonably correct?
Are those hugely promising mares which have gone into breeding through injury, actually producing valued foals?
Eothain, I take it that were you spoilt for choice, then you would consider using the best mare, to breed with. It's obviously been done, so does anyone know of the results? Magic104, your research abilities seem to me to be remarkable. Do you have any light to throw on this?
Alec.
Eothain
Well-Known Member
This breeding malark is funny! I know a man who is a successful breeder that has bred at least 2 horses that have been on winning Nations Cups. He has a full sister to a mare that won a Nations Cup and a couple of 5* Grand Prix in Europe. He thinks that the non-performing sister has actually made the better broodmare.
Just when you think you have all the answers, the questions change!
Just when you think you have all the answers, the questions change!
GinnieRedwings
Well-Known Member
Million Pound (or Euro) questions Alec. The problem is that collecting, analysing and publishing the data to produce the figures that would give you that answer for certain (in the format... 78.6% of foals born to advance event mares in 1999 have gone on to become advance eventers themselves etc...) would be a subject for a PhD project!!! I mean, as has been mentioned in this thread before, there are so many parametres that modify the equation, injury rates, production... that the level of involvement required would be prohibitive for an amateur...
That being said, I am pretty certain this has been done in the racing industry, where money to finance such useful projects is no object. So on the balance of probabilities, the answer to your question is probably yes - otherwise, why would the TB studs carry on doing what they are doing in the way they are doing it?
That would be a good part of the above-mentioned PhD project...
Lack of scientifically collated and analysed data over many years will always amount to the "feeling" breeders get, collective popular myth, personal opinion - no answer at all, really!
GrassHorse
Well-Known Member
A horse by Puissance made 16,000 euro at goresbridge today!