Hardest decision, think might have to have healthy pony PTS :(

AshTay said:
Agree. All she can do is return the pony and explain what could happen to the pony if they sell it on (or rather, what could happen to a child who unwittingly ended up riding it) and that if they won't keep it permanently, or try to work through it's problems (explaining that this could be expensive and may not cure the problem), they should PTS.

Then it's the owners decision.
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Agree. I have to go out in the rain for evening stables for 12 horses and really can't read the rest.

The problem with curing dangerous horses is you can never be sure they are really cured.

I have one who hasn't acted out in several years, but I still don't trust her. And she will never leave my yard.

I don't know what your legal ramifications would be in the UK but here in the USA the yard owner could very well be sued if she in any way participated in the sale of a horse that later injured the purchaser.

Not to mention the remorse the OP would feel.

I hope the OP can convince the owner to euth the pony but if not she needs to have him out of her yard.

FWIW, even if the horse is kept as a companion by the current owners there is no way to guarantee he will not be ridden. I haad drunken idiots climb into one of my fields and ride an unbroken 3 YO pony. Luckily she just stood there
 
It's very sad that this pony has got to this stage & the general consensus seems to be to put it to sleep. It's all too easy to jump to that conclusion, & yes, for some animals, after all else has fails, it may be the responsible decision. But, i cant help thinking, that if this has been a loved & successful pony, he's not always been a bolter, then maybe he deserves a chance?

The repsonsible owner will look for professional help, before coming to the decision to end their animals life.

There are professionals who can deal with problems your average horse owner can't. Bolters CAN be rehabbed. Even those apparently at the end of the road with their current owners. I know because i've done it & the pony in question is now out showjumping successfully with a sympathetic new owner. He as sold honestly, & with full history, as well as advice on handling him in the future so he didn't go wrong again. There are people out there who are willing to work with animals like this - i'd suggest advertising him on a website called Project Horses, where horses with similiar issues are advertised honestly, & where owners who have the means & experience to give them a second chance are looking to buy.

Messed up horses don't tend to be born that way, things go wrong to make them that way. It's all too easy to just label a horse, a "problem". But, like it or not, generally humans are responsible, or at the very least, involved, with that process. Therefore, surely we owe them a second chance in order to work through their issues?
 
Is there nothing you can do to persuade them that they would be liable if he injured anyone, since they are fully aware of his dangerous vice, or offer to sell him from yours and disclose to all potential buyers that he is a serial bolter and likely to kill its jockey? He'll never sell and they'll decide there is only one thing to do.

I'm getting confused as you seem to have invested money in him, they aren't letting you have him for nothing (and thus 'sort' his future) and yet are insisting they want £500 for him??? Sound as bonkers as the pony.
 
Havent read all of the other posts, so someone may have already suggested it, but how about trying Monty Roberts? Or Kelly Marks, i know a lot of you will say, they wont be able to do anything, but they have seriously worked miracles on some horses!
At least try it, i agree that it would be dangerous to sell it on, because of the responsibility you would have if something happened, but maybe its worth a go?! Better than just PTS?
xx
 
martlin said:
Or they believe they can make a quick buck...
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Luckily, not everyone who proclaim to be "horselovers" are the same. The profit i made on rehabbing that particular bolter was quite simply a lovley big bunch of flowers from the owner who had been at the end of her tether & the peace of mind that a previously troubled pony now had a future.

The website i mentioned is run by someone i know, & i can assure you, the intention is not for making a "quick buck" but to allow horses to have a second chance.

Ditto what's just been said by Sophiegg - there are people who can help. Richard Maxwell is another professional i would recommend - i have watched him work many times & he is a true horseman, with methods that really work.
 
Ted's mum said:
just send the thing to meat or give away as a companion..simple really.
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I'd have thought on a forum like this, where people claim to love horses, we'd have a bit more respect & compassion. Sorry to single you out Ted's mum (well, NOT actually, after a comment like that). Am quite stunned by some of the comments on here so far, references to Pedigree Chum, jokey replies etc. I doubt this is a joking or easy to deal with matter for those concerned.

I'd like to poiny out, if we were as quick to dispose of the "problem people" that our horses have, then we'd have a lot more happy horses in the world.
 
I haven't suggested that it is the intention of the site owners to make a quick buck. It is a freely available site to view, though and you have no way of vetting people responding to adverts. The pony might end up with someone experienced and knowledgeable (doubtful, somehow I don't see people spending money on a bolter when they can get a nice pony just as cheap) OR it might end up with a smart arse who thinks they can make a quick buck.
The OP is a fairly experienced horse person, she hasn't managed to turn that pony around, how many more people (and children) need to be bolted with and injured for it to be sufficient evidence that the pony needs putting down?
It's not the second chance the pony would be getting, it's umpteenth...
 
I don't know the OP, or the pony in question Martlin, (although you seem to), & i am not making a judgement of her/him or her decision, as i know it must be a difficult situation. You say she is "fairly experienced" - would you not consider that a pony with issues so severe (if i remember right, has it bolted 4 times?) that most people seem to consider it only worth shooting, then to have been given a proper chance of rehab, then it needs to be in the hands of someone extremely experienced? Perhaps first port of call should be seeking that help?

I am not getting at the OP, fair play for asking for help here, i am merely making suggestions as others have.

Nativeponies, you wit is predictable, i'm afraid.
1.gif


Incidentally, I'm not a member (or a huge fan,TBH) of the IHDG.
 
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Haven't read all the post so not sure if it's been mentioned, but have you tried to sell (for a small amount) the pony and it making very clear it is a bolter, or atleast offer or sell as a field companion to someone. Just thinking of things to try and save you having to pts
 
What a sad story this is. Not because of the Pony's behaviour but the solutions offered to the problem.

Put To Sleep???????

That sounds a most drastic and uneccessary action. Surely as horse lovers you can come up with a better solution? Have you never heard of retraining?

To begin with it appears to me that Human Beings have let this little pony down drastically. It seems that nobody has taken the time to teach him about "Pressure and Release" and maybe they haven't bothered to explain what the Bit is supposed to be used for and how he should respond to the rein aids.

If you are truly Horse Lovers rather than Horse Users I would have expected a Forum like this to come up with some positive comments instead of running scared just cos' he is acting unpredictably at times.

If you can't get the answers here join us on this Forum http://www.richard-maxwell.com/cpage/richardmaxwell/phpBB3/index.php where you will be most welcome and if you keep an open mind I am sure you find the answers you are looking for.
 
I have not resoponded on this thread for quite a while, but earlier on pointed out the glut of safe and sane ponies at the moment.
This pony is the size for a child to ride, it is a serial bolter, who appears to have no physical health problems. It is a danger to children who ride it, It should not be passed on to another child. I do not care how much work goes into it, it may resume its current behaviour in future. It may therefore kill a child. How can anyone expect it to have a viable future. And before I get the horse user/abuser tag, we have kept all our horses for the rest of their lives, until the quality, for them, began to deteriorate. We currently have one mare who retired 5 years ago and made the decision to carry on for another year as she appears to be quite happy and vet says is healthy at 28. I would indeed have aserial bolter shot if I personally did not have the space resources to keep it, or if I felt that it was not comfortable in its life.
 
I have to say I am amazed at some of the responses to this post!
The OP is in a horrid position particularly as the pony is not hers legally but she has responsibility for it.
I am a very caring horse owner and have kept many horse till their dying day with long and happy retirements. Many would say I am too soft but even for me this is a no brainer. A pony this small that bolts is a danger and an accident waiting to happen. If he was mine no question I would PTS at home. Being a responsible owner sometimes means making tough decisions unfortunately. The worst thing you could do is pass him on. Even if sold as a companion or given away there are too many unscrupulous people out there that may try and sell on eventually. Letting him go to someone else is passing the buck. I could live with myself having to PTS a pony with this history. I could not live with myself if it left my hands and went on to paralyse or kill a young child.
 
well this has sparked a few arguments.


Is there anyone on this forum willing to get on this pony or let there child get on it.

I have a ballsy, very balanced, quiet rider BUT i wouldn't dream of her riding a known bolter, not for all the tea in china!! My daughters life is worth more as is any childs or small adult.

To let this pony go as a companion is a nice thought but can you honestly say it won't end up somewhere, where they it was misunderstood and could be ok to ride or a local child doesn't try and get on it in the field for a joy ride. (which has been known)

If it was my pony or if i was in the OP's position then i would be advising to have it PTS assuming all the checks had been done, which sound like they have..

I think the OP was only asking for advice as its a very hard decision to make and advising someone else is harder still.

Good Luck R2R. Not a nice position to be in!

Best Wishes

Lou
 
Roggybabe said:
What a sad story this is. Not because of the Pony's behaviour but the solutions offered to the problem.

Put To Sleep???????

That sounds a most drastic and uneccessary action. Surely as horse lovers you can come up with a better solution? Have you never heard of retraining?

To begin with it appears to me that Human Beings have let this little pony down drastically. It seems that nobody has taken the time to teach him about "Pressure and Release" and maybe they haven't bothered to explain what the Bit is supposed to be used for and how he should respond to the rein aids.

If you are truly Horse Lovers rather than Horse Users I would have expected a Forum like this to come up with some positive comments instead of running scared just cos' he is acting unpredictably at times.

If you can't get the answers here join us on this Forum http://www.richard-maxwell.com/cpage/richardmaxwell/phpBB3/index.php where you will be most welcome and if you keep an open mind I am sure you find the answers you are looking for.
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Thank the high heavens there is someone else with the same mindset as me. I have seen countless horses and dogs killed because of fixable behavioural issues. I have also seen the likes of Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Chris Cox and Cesar Millan successfully rehabilitate a great many animals that would have otherwise been killed. I'm sorry, but the excuse of "it might relapse" or a child "might" get hurt does NOT cut it!! Ever heard of the concept of maintaining a retraining program? Or that retraining an animal also involves the retraining of the human?

Killing this pony would be the worst possible outcome.
 
Over2You said:
Thank the high heavens there is someone else with the same mindset as me. I have seen countless horses and dogs killed because of fixable behavioural issues. I have also seen the likes of Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Chris Cox and Cesar Millan successfully rehabilitate a great many animals that would have otherwise been killed. I'm sorry, but the excuse of "it might relapse" or a child "might" get hurt does NOT cut it!! Ever heard of the concept of maintaining a retraining program? Or that retraining an animal also involves the retraining of the human?

Killing this pony would be the worst possible outcome.
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NO the worst possible outcome would be this pony killing a person!
 
Over2You said:
I'm sorry, but the excuse of "it might relapse" or a child "might" get hurt does NOT cut it!!
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Yes, it does.

I'm a self-confessed bunny hugger, but I know that deep down no matter what I did to re-train this pony, it might have a relapse in the future be it due to lack of success of re-training, or a new rider who isn't 100% au fait with the retraining methods, or a simple mistake or relapse on the part of the rider - we are all only human, and the horse is an animal not a machine.

I'd hate for it to be me on the pony's back when that happened, and I would never forgive myself it it was a child in the saddle. Bolters, serious, and repeated episodes are just too dangerous to be reschooled IMHO. Retire and take responsibility, or PTS.
 
I think R2R should just advise the pony be given to someone who will save it. Then that person can deal with the legal implications when it bolts and hurts someone - ridden or not.

They will probably have a kennel full of vicious dogs they are trying to retrain as well before they take them out to run free in the park....... haha
 
Please just try "JOIN-UP"

It can be done at home by yourself, for free!!

& if it's done properly, the pony will learn to trust the "human monsters"

Therefore creating a more trusting & manageable pony on the ground at least

I think it's worth a try don't you??
 
Roggybabe

I agree with your post about negative posts so have joined the Richard Maxwell one.

Others

In the title it says the pony is healthy. Would you ever thing about putting to sleep an uncontrollable child NO you would work with the child and someone should work with this pony.

The owner no longer wants the pony but seems quite happy for the pony to be PTS this of course will cost money not just Putting to sleep but the disposal of the body.

There must be someone who is prepared to work with this pony.

I myself have asked 2 questions both do not seem to have been answered. 1) How old is the pony 2) Where is he at the moment.
 
But on the other hand, would you consider keeping a dangerous dog, that in the end could kill, alive? Because ultimately, there is a possibility that this pony could be sold on to a family that puts their child to ride it, it bolts, and the child is injured......or worse.
 
The pony is NOT new to this game - he should know his job by now. He is not a childs pony nor is he a pony for an adult with any sense.

OP has already stated she's spent time and money trying to get this pony right and there is no improvement. I respect her for considering this pony, if sold on/loaned out could end up in the wrong hands and seriously injure or kill somebody.

A bolter will always be a bolter. He will always have deep seated mental issues judging by what OP has said about his inconsistency. He may improve but he will never ever be a safe childrens pony - his flight instinct is incredibly sensitive and will be impossible to turn off or tune down! So what job does he have apart from to be a pet (and not a very nice one at that)?

After unsuspectingly being sold a bolter when i was young, i sincerely believe it would be irresponsible to keep this pony as a ridden pony purely because there are humans that cannot be trusted to tell the truth. There are too many horses/ponies out there being mis-sold!

Any news on the owners OP?
 
OP if you do decide to send him to someone for assessment I would suggest Michael Peace.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on or what the final decision is.
 
paulineh said:
In the title it says the pony is healthy. Would you ever thing about putting to sleep an uncontrollable child NO you would work with the child and someone should work with this pony.
.
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Crumbs, how can you compare a child with a pony?!

So many people believe they can rehab this pony, so again, let's see someone put their money where their mouth is...
 
R2R said:
Someone get me a number and I swear to God I will take the pony.
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DON'T put that poor pony through becoming a circus act for a paying audience. Do you really believe he can be fixed in an hour? These 'shows' are highly stressful for the animals and I just think if you are going to go down the route of trying 'NH' techniques, do it slowly and in a unstressful manner, where you are setting out for success with no time restraints.

Or, just have him PTS quietly at home.
 
steph91 said:
Haven't read all the post so not sure if it's been mentioned, but have you tried to sell (for a small amount) the pony and it making very clear it is a bolter, or atleast offer or sell as a field companion to someone. Just thinking of things to try and save you having to pts
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Unfortunately, not everyone is as trustworthy as we would like. What if it was sold on again, no mention of bolting.....

Great, then someone like me comes along, does all the usual stuff, vetted, blah blah blah....gets it home, it bolts, injures/kills my child....nice.

Do a bit of digging and find it's past, I'd be out to shoot someone, once the pony had been shot...

Drastic? Sounds it, but in my experience, finding trustworthy folk in the horseworld is like finding a needle in a haystack...

With regards to the companion thing, again, thats good, but you just cannot guarantee what happens once you have no say in the matter anymore....

A difficult choice, but I know where my head would take me....
 
benson21 said:
But on the other hand, would you consider keeping a dangerous dog, that in the end could kill, alive? Because ultimately, there is a possibility that this pony could be sold on to a family that puts their child to ride it, it bolts, and the child is injured......or worse.
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As i said in my 1st reply

pony's life...child's life?

no brainer really.

i'm convinced that some people who have replied on this thread have never seen a TRUE bolter or they wouldn't be so flippant with their advice.

a very good friend of mine was bolted with through a hedge..along a lane for 500yds, through a crossroads..luckily no traffic..up to the T-Junction..where she/they met a transit van....both her and the driver were in hospital for weeks....she had countless stitches to her head/back..and a badly damaged arm..

van driver was unfit for work for months

stupid pony got off scot free again!!..but this was the last straw for her Dad, he was shot the next day..

pony had previous bolting history...sometimes it would run for up to a mile..just take off.. no warning/nothing spooked him, he would just go..99% of the time she would bale out..and we would then have to go and look for the pony!!..all well and good in the 70's with the small amount of traffic then..these days the pair of them would have been killed long before the pony was shot!

so yes, my opinion is still the same..a childs life isn't worth the risk.
 
I have a bolter that was caused cruelty. Beaten flipped in a gig not a nice experience. When i tried him out he was drugged. But i was a 16 yr old and felt i could solve any problem. He was sold to me as 6 he was 3.

About 2 months in he start bolting, threw me alot. It was his naturally reaction ( which people tend to forget). I had a lot of "experts" ie other liveries telling me what to do. more ground work, rebreak him, even join up and parelli when none of these worked even have him put down. We had his teeth back and saddle done, checked every 6 months. About 4 years ago I tried to sell him, i had enough. Which didn't go well!

I took him the yard that i worked on. My boss decided that he needed to be pulled in draw reins, Which show up the cause of his problems. He flipped over with her on him. his Hamsprings had been damaged with his first owner this had caused a back problem which had in turn been caused by a jaw injured! With the advise of the vet and my boss he when for more X rays and he had an underlaying fracture tooth, which before i get any backlash this means the surface of the tooth was fine it was under the gum where the problem was.


He was turned out for 6 months, with the advise that if when i started to ride him again if he was still a bolter that i had he put down.


Within the year he was winning every competion he went in.


I still do not trust him 100 percent. Neither does my instructor. If he is more than 5 months between having his teeth done,you can ride him but god help you if you pick up your reins. I do not trust him around other people, and i know that if i did ever have to get rid of him i would have to considered having him put to sleep which sounds harsh,but for his safetly and for other peoples saftly.

But it also means the horse has no quality of life if handled by a inexperience handler.

Until you are in the position of owning a bolter that has a list of problems you cannot


I wish you all the luck with the pony OP. You may have luck with it luck i have but only you will know what is best for this pony as you handler it in a daily bacis.
 
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