soloequestrian
Well-Known Member
I realise that this could probably fill a book...but could you give any examples? Very interesting point!
Have we got it wrong?
- Thread starter Alexa123
- Start date
I realise that this could probably fill a book...but could you give any examples? Very interesting point!
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
Gee - and I've had my excellent physio look at 7 horses today - what a waste of money. But - oh gee - 2 have been treated (one with surgery and one with steroid) for kissing spines, one had a bad fall during backing ad was a total prat for a while - far better with time, patience and physio but still struggles to flex in the middle, one was a full sibling to the two with KS, so suspected that when he was a prat before we'd got him happy with the roller - handler confidence - or giving him the benefit of the doubt - were probably to blame. And one is a big girl who has spent the first 18months ridden struggling to put one foot in front of the other, hard to canter on the correct lead etc etc etc. She's improved with physio and daily flexion exercises but still a little way to go. Onl one was decided as needing a good kick up the ribs (just come in for backing and the owner wanted to be sure all was right.) All IS right - apart from manners - and that will be fixed.
No-one in their right mind would send a horse to Peace or similar without first checking out the obvious! He's too ruddy expensive for that!
Alexa123
Member
So we're making the assumption that all vets can be relied upon. Now, don't get me started on THAT one!
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I did indeed quote you. I thought your trainer was completely wrong in suggesting that a horse which only naps at a gateway can't be napping at that gateway through pain, and I said so.
That didn't need me to have seen the video either
Any more technicalities you want to argue over, it's cold and damp and I'm not motivated to fetch a horse and ride?
I don't think it's a technicality, tbh, I was pleased when you said you hadn't watched it because it explained why you had kind of missed the point of what MP was saying (and by extension the OP), and therefore why your posts towards me and others read as though you are accusing people of riding their horses through problems, when they must by all accounts have some debilitating physical condition.
My trainer wasn't talking about a theoretical horse that might well have kissing spines all around the arena, in the example he was talking about MY horse. I think my vets would think I was off my rocker if I told them to x ray her spine because she napped a couple of times in a 45 min session.
MP clearly stated in the short video that horses came to him AFTER the owners had done various physical examinations. The horses still displayed behavioural problems, and at that point it was all about training.
If you don't agree, then at what point do you give up trying to find a physical cause for a behavioural problem? Should I spend £500 on x rays, £2000 on a new saddle, £200 on physio, I dunno, let's say £50 for an animal communicator while I'm at it... before looking at myself and saying, do you know what? I just need to teach the horse something.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
I give up MP
The only argument I had on this whole thread is the claim that pain RARELY causes behavioural issues. My experience is that it is far from rare.
I thought I had made that clear. But if what I've written want clear enough for you, I'm stumped and can't see the point of continuing this discussion!
Watch the Macc match on the telly tonight, I'm just off to see it for real
The only argument I had on this whole thread is the claim that pain RARELY causes behavioural issues. My experience is that it is far from rare.
I thought I had made that clear. But if what I've written want clear enough for you, I'm stumped and can't see the point of continuing this discussion!
Watch the Macc match on the telly tonight, I'm just off to see it for real
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I can see two particular issues...
If a behaviour is rarely caused by physical issues, then riding must be. If that is so, what about our riding is causing so many physical issues?
oldie48
Well-Known Member
Such an interesting thread and I am learning so much from you folks. I just wanted to throw something else into the mix to get some feedback In the past I've worked with people who have had very profound behavioural issues that have made them difficult to work with and often a danger to themselves and to other people, their issues haven't stemmed from physical pain (although they may have felt their pain in a physical way) but in lots of cases it has come from an unstable and unsupportive environment, a lack of clear boundaries and sadly parents who were unable to give clear guidance. Now, I am in no way suggesting that children are the same as young horses but I do see some comparisons. If I had a child throwing it's toys out of the pram, I'm not sure my first reaction would be to ask where it hurts! Do I think a lot of behavioural problems stem for the rider? Yes because I know I've been guilty of it and I have to admit that to become a better rider. Do they sometimes stem from pain, yes of course they do but I think they are less frequent than we'd like to think.
scats
Well-Known Member
I haven't read all the replies yet, but I witness first hand, on a daily basis, people who lack the skills to ride and train a horse (or even understand its behaviour), blaming schooling issues on physical problems.
Friend has a very cheeky cob (aren't they all!) and she is quite a novicey rider from a training point of view. She can get on a horse and ride it, but had no experience of bringing horses on or schooling them from scratch. She bought a just backed 4 year old.
Several things over the last year or so she has blamed on a potential physical problem. Even though horse would be good 90% of the time and then decide to nap and leave the arena when he felt like, or tank off and refuse to stop, she couldn't see that the problem was down to her riding- perhaps too weak with her leg aid, leaving the shoulder open etc. If I suggested things to try, she would shoot me down and make excuses that something was wrong with him.
She got horse physically checked out- vet, physio, farrier, saddler... and as predicted, he had no health issues at all, he was just taking advantage of weaknesses in her handling and riding.
Having had horses for 30 years, and seeing an awful lot in my time, I'm pretty good at spotting when a problem is a physical one and when it's a training issue (I tend to use the term training issue over behavioural issue, as I believe the issues occur through inconsistent or weak training, not that the horse has decided to randomly be an a***e!)
Friend has a very cheeky cob (aren't they all!) and she is quite a novicey rider from a training point of view. She can get on a horse and ride it, but had no experience of bringing horses on or schooling them from scratch. She bought a just backed 4 year old.
Several things over the last year or so she has blamed on a potential physical problem. Even though horse would be good 90% of the time and then decide to nap and leave the arena when he felt like, or tank off and refuse to stop, she couldn't see that the problem was down to her riding- perhaps too weak with her leg aid, leaving the shoulder open etc. If I suggested things to try, she would shoot me down and make excuses that something was wrong with him.
She got horse physically checked out- vet, physio, farrier, saddler... and as predicted, he had no health issues at all, he was just taking advantage of weaknesses in her handling and riding.
Having had horses for 30 years, and seeing an awful lot in my time, I'm pretty good at spotting when a problem is a physical one and when it's a training issue (I tend to use the term training issue over behavioural issue, as I believe the issues occur through inconsistent or weak training, not that the horse has decided to randomly be an a***e!)
Alexa123
Member
It has indeed turned into an interesting, multi-layered thread, which is why I keep coming back to it. Like others I have had (and still have) difficulties in my life and horses have been both a therapy and a trial. A horse will know your mental state as soon as you enter its space. Some will tolerate your 'bad days' and/or your ineptitude in the saddle with innate good will, while others will have none of it. But it would be a sad day if horses became the preserve of 'the chosen few' - those of a saintly, well-balanced disposition who have also had the benefit of that rare thing - a solid equestrian heritage, knowledge, experience and expertise.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I don't think that's necessary. .. I know I have no horsey heritage but I think I do an OK job by my steeds. If you keep an open mind and heart, you can learn so much, so so much including how to have that well balanced disposition, I think :lol:
That's the essential think for me, an ongoing willingness to learn
more likely that horses will return to the realm of the wealthy I think. And money doesn't necessarily equal knowledge etc 
gunnergundog
Well-Known Member
Personally, I think that pain/physical issues can be a key driver in the behaviours exhibited.
However, for me, the key question is, how much of that pain is caused by inappropriate riding that leads over time to the excessive stresses and compensations on key body parts which then crumble and lead to the sub-clinical pain/lamenesses that manifests itself in inappropriate behaviour?
I know that I am able to get on a horse that is deemed to be lame by a vet (as much as 2/5ths) and still win a prelim dressage class with a 70%+ score judged by a listed individual (and higher than list 6). Am not proud of that, but just stating as an example.
So much comes down to FEEL and EXPERIENCE and just to add that said horse is now undergoing a rehab program.
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teapot
Well-Known Member
Super interesting thread.
Does anyone remember the US Olympic horse that napped around the Rio xc course? Turned out it WAS in pain. Even the team coach said the horse was fine... http://eventingnation.com/loughan-glen-recovering-after-rio-olympic-games/
On a personal level, the horse I rode last winter and gave up before I thought he'd kill me, I was convinced he was in pain due to his management (not my choice). The more he was ridden straight out of a 12 by 12 box (he's a big lad) the worse he felt under saddle. I to this day am convinced he is tight/sore somewhere, and the less turnout he was getting, the more aggravated it was. His movement in the field the day I managed to get him some turnout after three months said it all...
My instructor and I were talking about lameness during my lesson (multi-tasking obvs) and were wondering whether being able to see lameness is a good thing or not? You can start writing horses off completely before going 'hang on they're doing a prelim once every six months' with not one real indication of pain... Is any horse truly 100% sound?
Does anyone remember the US Olympic horse that napped around the Rio xc course? Turned out it WAS in pain. Even the team coach said the horse was fine... http://eventingnation.com/loughan-glen-recovering-after-rio-olympic-games/
On a personal level, the horse I rode last winter and gave up before I thought he'd kill me, I was convinced he was in pain due to his management (not my choice). The more he was ridden straight out of a 12 by 12 box (he's a big lad) the worse he felt under saddle. I to this day am convinced he is tight/sore somewhere, and the less turnout he was getting, the more aggravated it was. His movement in the field the day I managed to get him some turnout after three months said it all...
My instructor and I were talking about lameness during my lesson (multi-tasking obvs) and were wondering whether being able to see lameness is a good thing or not? You can start writing horses off completely before going 'hang on they're doing a prelim once every six months' with not one real indication of pain... Is any horse truly 100% sound?
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Cortez
Tough but Fair
Oh gosh, where to start? And how to say without seeming (or indeed being) very rude.............
MuddyMonster
Well-Known Member
I would imagine one of the biggest reasons is surely that horses are not actually designed (or poorly designed) to be ridden? That's not to say they can't be, but I think even in the healthiest of horses, there is an awful lot of supporting care needed to prevent or minimise the damage that could be done to a horse through ridden work.
Add in to that melting pot hereditary or genetic weaknesses, various training methods or levels of training, varying levels of supporting care on top of everything else & you can see why so many problems can potentially occur ...
teapot
Well-Known Member
Not to mention some not understanding the damage that a heavy weighted, heavy sitting rider can do...
MuddyMonster
Well-Known Member
I think being able to spot lameness can only be a good thing. My vet subscribes to the school of thought that there is no such thing as 'just stiffnes', as stiffness is essentially lameness. So I think like people, very few horses are 100% sound. Through doing Pilates & physiotherapy I know I'm not 100% level - but I can still go to the gym, ride horses & go to work. I just need to focus on building up certain areas through exercises to help counteract where I'm less strong.
But with being able to spot and understand lameness, I think you need to be able to be be pragmatic enough to realise the horse can potentially still work but understanding to what extent & how management can help. Like you say, if the horse is just ticking over at a lower level, there's no reason to necessarily pension him or her off to retirement livery if they are coping fine.
Likewise, a horse that may not be able to stand up to 1.50m SJ at a competitive level with a pro could cope fine at 1m with an amateur that goes out every month.
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Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
I watched the video and its a bit misleading. Anything he gets in is looked over with a fine tooth comb. However I do agree with him partly, some horses are just difficult due to the way they have been started or things they have learnt etc. But I'm also coming at this from the point of view of a fat, disabled middle aged woman who can no longer ride for toffee! If you look back through my posts there have been a fair few wondering if there was something wrong with my horse or if he just needs a better rider to give him a smacked bottom. Every time there has been a physical issue, which we have resolved.
Before I became a fat disabled middle aged woman I used to take on horses no one else wanted and turned them round. Admittedly usually cobby jobbies. They all got turned around and went on to be productive members of society, but on reflection almsot all of them would have benefited from physio at the very least. It just wasnt something I used to do. Teeth and sometimes a saddle check, but otherwise they got a smacked bottom and told to get on with it and they did.
The last one I did was a bit of a reprobate and I turned him round and he was hacking out with novices and schooling nicely until the day he bolted with me out of the blue and fractured my spine catastrophically. It turns out he had spinal issues and had been coping with them as he had to until it all got too much and here we are! So that might be colouring my view slightly! But I think an awful lot of horses have issues, some of which can be overcome by being worked properly. I know my back pain which is totally disabling, is massively better if I am fit, so it stands to reason that some horses can be turned around by being ridden through it and developing the muscular structure needed to hold them together. I am however grateful that I cant ride well enough to do that for a horse as I know how thoroughly unpleasant it is!
The pros I know, and I do still know a fair few, turn horses around by good but hard riding
Before I became a fat disabled middle aged woman I used to take on horses no one else wanted and turned them round. Admittedly usually cobby jobbies. They all got turned around and went on to be productive members of society, but on reflection almsot all of them would have benefited from physio at the very least. It just wasnt something I used to do. Teeth and sometimes a saddle check, but otherwise they got a smacked bottom and told to get on with it and they did.
The last one I did was a bit of a reprobate and I turned him round and he was hacking out with novices and schooling nicely until the day he bolted with me out of the blue and fractured my spine catastrophically. It turns out he had spinal issues and had been coping with them as he had to until it all got too much and here we are! So that might be colouring my view slightly! But I think an awful lot of horses have issues, some of which can be overcome by being worked properly. I know my back pain which is totally disabling, is massively better if I am fit, so it stands to reason that some horses can be turned around by being ridden through it and developing the muscular structure needed to hold them together. I am however grateful that I cant ride well enough to do that for a horse as I know how thoroughly unpleasant it is!
The pros I know, and I do still know a fair few, turn horses around by good but hard riding
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I think that *some* horses are designed well for being ridden. Couple that with riding that teaches the horse the *how* of carrying a being atop, it can actually protect the horse.
Personally, I think you have touched on one of the main issues. Many competition horses nowadays are made to pull as someone said previously. Then, in trying to achieve the frame of a horse that is meant to be ridden, these horses get pulled and constricted in all manner of ways in which their anatomy cannot cope with.
Why not choose a horse that naturally has the ability and anatomy TO carry and easy to train? Why force something on a type of horse that just *can't* do what those other horses can.
That is just one point, there are many as Cortez points out... style of riding being one that I'd also like to touch on as I have seen it. Maybe later though... chores to do...
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
haha, I was thinking about this while doing my chores :lol:
I have recently been helping with a horse that has been ridden in such a way to make it stiff. Not lame, yet, but absolutely stiff and incredibly one sided to the point where it is now unable to do basic school work with any correctness. It was the kind of horse that wouldn't have a great deal of natural suppleness, but the issues it is displaying now have been created by what I would describe as incorrect training
I think we've found a way to put it on the right track now... it would definitely be worth the owner booking some physio for it too, but tbh at the moment I think it would have limited benefit in the long term until it's ridden in a more constructive way to back up any bodywork needed... he effectively needs his rider to give him physio type work, every time he is ridden.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
haha, I was thinking about this while doing my chores :lol:
I have recently been helping with a horse that has been ridden in such a way to make it stiff. Not lame, yet, but absolutely stiff and incredibly one sided to the point where it is now unable to do basic school work with any correctness. It was the kind of horse that wouldn't have a great deal of natural suppleness, but the issues it is displaying now have been created by what I would describe as incorrect training
It must be endemic this kind of riding then - once I believe I too rode this way. I was taught to ride that way - I certainly contributed to a horse's lameness. I feel blessed that somehow I managed to find the kind of teacher that thinks beyond a frame to ride into and more about the preservation of a horse during ridden work and how riding can actually make a horse more supple, more light and more straight. In turn, this made my horse more athletic and supple. Look! No physio needed! The horse was actually gymnastically fit, able to power himself out of his thoracic sling and up between the shoulders without any special manipulation or magic injections. We need more teachers that can guide riders how to teach the horse to carry riders.
Also, another musing, what is schooling for nowadays anyway? Well mannered horses? Well schooled? We don't need a light nimble destrier anymore to help us out on the battlefields. I don't perform a turn on the haunches thinking "I'll need this move to avoid a potential sword attack", no I think "is that the right degree of bend, will the judge mark me down for that?"... riding is for ridings sake. The importance of lightness and suppleness means nothing and you are not rewarded for it in the ring. So, in theory at least, as long as bad riding gets the points, horses will continue to be stiff and needing money thrown at them to stay sound.
There must be more teachers like mine around... where are they all?
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
So much to say , it's a subject very close to my heart but I've got horses to put to bed
Just one thing that sprang to mind first though, trainers are one thing but it takes a certain kind of person to learn this way, to develop feel and sensitivity rather than just tell the horse what to do. To spend as much time feeling what the effect of their efforts are on the horse, as you spend giving it instructions.
Plus you don't know what you're missing as a rider if all you ever ride is stiff donkeys. I love riding other people's horses because it reaffirms how much I enjoy mine, because of the constant gymnastic and suppling work they do, which makes them easy and fun to ride and I hope will prolong their ridden life . I feel sad for the riders of the stiff horses though, at some point I hope they will experience what it is to ride a well schooled horse in the true sense. I find it really rewarding to help people along that path if they ask. .. we all have so much to learn but every little helps
teapot
Well-Known Member
milliepops said:Plus you don't know what you're missing as a rider if all you ever ride is stiff donkeys. I love riding other people's horses because it reaffirms how much I enjoy mine, because of the constant gymnastic and suppling work they do, which makes them easy and fun to ride and I hope will prolong their ridden life . I feel sad for the riders of the stiff horses though, at some point I hope they will experience what it is to ride a well schooled horse in the true sense. I find it really rewarding to help people along that path if they ask. .. we all have so much to learn but every little helps
They're around, hidden but around. My lesson on Weds (at a riding school no less) was all about straightness, suppleness, and lightness. Wasn't on your 'average' rs horse either so when I eventually got it right it felt wonderful :smile3:
ETS: it was helping him too having been ridden in a fairly noticeably fixed way in a previous home.
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Cortez
Tough but Fair
Ah, now this discussion is going on the right track.....and you are all much better at saying these things diplomatically than I
Wagtail
Horse servant
What an interesting thread! I will read it all after making my reply.
But of course MP will have the impression that it's mostly behavioural/rider/handling. He ends up mainly with horses that have been fully checked out. Many have had thousands of pounds spent on them ruling out physical issues. So his experience is going to be skewed.
In my experience, I would say that nine times out of ten nappy, rearing behaviour has a pain cause. Bucking is mostly high spirits but can also be a pain cause.
But of course MP will have the impression that it's mostly behavioural/rider/handling. He ends up mainly with horses that have been fully checked out. Many have had thousands of pounds spent on them ruling out physical issues. So his experience is going to be skewed.
In my experience, I would say that nine times out of ten nappy, rearing behaviour has a pain cause. Bucking is mostly high spirits but can also be a pain cause.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
So much to say , it's a subject very close to my heart but I've got horses to put to bed
Just one thing that sprang to mind first though, trainers are one thing but it takes a certain kind of person to learn this way, to develop feel and sensitivity rather than just tell the horse what to do. To spend as much time feeling what the effect of their efforts are on the horse, as you spend giving it instructions.
Plus you don't know what you're missing as a rider if all you ever ride is stiff donkeys. I love riding other people's horses because it reaffirms how much I enjoy mine, because of the constant gymnastic and suppling work they do, which makes them easy and fun to ride and I hope will prolong their ridden life . I feel sad for the riders of the stiff horses though, at some point I hope they will experience what it is to ride a well schooled horse in the true sense. I find it really rewarding to help people along that path if they ask. .. we all have so much to learn but every little helps
Thats what I mean, there is such a lot to learn and I've only just scratched the surface. Some friends of mine are very competitive and it's all about getting to qualifiers for this age group, that age group, level etc... I find it so so tiring now. Don't get me wrong, I still want to compete the newbie but not at the expense of correct training... not rushing them through just doing the bare bones of dressage. Where is the soul in that? Where is the spirit?
Wagtail
Horse servant
Exactly. I have watched a horse for almost ten years and which has had tens of thousands of pounds spent on it but nothing concrete found for its nappy behaviour. It has mild kissing spines that is improved by regular chiro, hock arthritis that is improved by regular steroid injections and is on omeprazole permanently for recurrent ulcers. The horse obviously hates being ridden and will nap at the beginning of every session going into trot. Then after 15 minutes of shouting at and the odd flick with the whip and perseverance from its rider will eventually work nicely. But I always think 'why?'. I personally refuse to ride the horse. It doesn't want to work, and it makes for a horrible ride. The owner is convinced the horse is just trying it on. I think the horse does not want to be ridden for whatever reason (probably discomfort of some sort from one or more of its niggling ailments), but even if the cause is mental, I just don't want to ride it, period.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
NOT my experience. Napping and rearing is the ultimate "No, and you can't make me!" response, and it is so, so common in this end of the world. Vanishingly rare to non-existant in most of the countries I have worked in. Why's that?
Regandal
Well-Known Member
I think a lot depends on the individual. Not everyone wants to improve their riding. For those who do, the first time they experience the horse responding acts as a catalyst which leads them to seek more. You become hooked!
Cortez
Tough but Fair
But most people here have never, ever ridden a properly trained horse! If once you have felt what a really balanced, collected, supple, powerful, responsive horse feels like you would NEVER go back to the poor confused, staggering beasts that most people "enjoy". There is so much to riding, I apreciate that not everyone wants to go to the effort of learning to ride an educated horse, but for me the only responsible way to keep and ride a horse is to learn how to do it properly.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I have been lucky enough not to work with many serious rearers. The three that have been proper rearers (as in vertical/flipping over) have had serious physical issues. Two were PSD (both cured after the op and never reared to my knowledge again) and a KS horse (the one I describe above that has several physical issues). I have had a couple with a good buck in them, but largely not had much problem with any horse I have cared for and ridden. I had one horse that was my own that had an explosive reaction to being girthed. He had very serious KS which was never resolved.
But out of more than a hundred horses I have trained or worked with in my lifetime, this handful were the only ones I had any trouble with. None of the others were nappy or any trouble at all other than the usual greenness, spookiness or lack of confidence, all easily resolvable. I think you can tell when something is physical. You can 'feel' it.
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