Have we got it wrong?

[ycbm]

Agreed. What on earth has happened to the teaching of riding in the UK? Things are dire enough over here, when I go over to competitions in England I am really shocked at some of the riding (sorry to say it....).

I think it's probably as much a function of just how many people keep and ride and compete horses now. The numpties didn't used to travel and compete, they kept their poor riding at home hacking around the lanes.

Though there is a new class of bad riding now, people who think 'on the bit' comes from the hands. That never used to happen, because lower level riders had never even heard the expression! My pet hate is the hands pinned down on either side of the pommel, like a pair of fixed side reins.

 

[ycbm]

You see I think too much research might even be part of the problem too little development of proper feel ( back to the teaching thing ) and too much dependance on others rather than really grafting hard yourself .

I absolutely agree that feel is the number one requirement.

 

[Orangehorse]

When I was growing up - gosh, it probably is 50 years ago - horses were often retired at 13 as they were "old." It would have been virtually impossible to sell a teenage horse. We had some horses from a local dealer and he had a wonderful show jumper that was still jumping at 19, it was regarded as amazing. There was also a show jumping pony that his children jumped and then got passed on to a local farmer's son and this pony had a docked tail, so how old was that?
He DID keep his old horses, when he died he had a 45 year old pony in the field amongst others, but he was pretty rare.

Can't you remember the fuss when Mark Philips took Columbus round Badminton at age 14? He was practically accused of cruelty.

In theory a correctly trained and schooled horse will last longer than one that doesn't get the same, but there are just so many variables notably the constitution of the individual horse. Horses do go on longer now, but that is down to better veterinary care, wormers, and joint medication.

 

[Alexa123]

Here’s the thing - whilst you wise old/young sages on here pontificate (and with the best possible intentions, I have no doubt), let’s not forget that the majority of horse owners go more than the extra mile for their precious equines – to make sure that their lives are as good as they can be. BUT, WE DON’T KNOW WHAT WE DON’T KNOW! And I (and many like me) have sought help and advice from supposedly ‘those in the know’, who later turned out to be maybe NOT so in the know. Or, if they ARE in the know, then they’re not all that interested in sharing their experience and expertise with you. It is a tangled web, that’s for sure!
We must never stop learning, and with time, you start to get a better instinct for who to listen to - and that might even be you, yourself.

 

[DanceswithCows]

Oh yes my equestrian shenanigans have been horrifically hampered by trusting others too much in the past! Would've been better following my own instincts....

 

[ycbm]

Here’s the thing - whilst you wise old/young sages on here pontificate (and with the best possible intentions, I have no doubt), let’s not forget that the majority of horse owners go more than the extra mile for their precious equines – to make sure that their lives are as good as they can be. BUT, WE DON’T KNOW WHAT WE DON’T KNOW! And I (and many like me) have sought help and advice from supposedly ‘those in the know’, who later turned out to be maybe NOT so in the know. Or, if they ARE in the know, then they’re not all that interested in sharing their experience and expertise with you. It is a tangled web, that’s for sure!
We must never stop learning, and with time, you start to get a better instinct for who to listen to - and that might even be you, yourself.

Do you know the problem, Alexa? You can get five decades in and STILL realise how much you don't know!

 

[Alexa123]

Haha! And we just keep going back for more!

 

[milliepops]

Here’s the thing - whilst you wise old/young sages on here pontificate (and with the best possible intentions, I have no doubt), let’s not forget that the majority of horse owners go more than the extra mile for their precious equines – to make sure that their lives are as good as they can be. BUT, WE DON’T KNOW WHAT WE DON’T KNOW! And I (and many like me) have sought help and advice from supposedly ‘those in the know’, who later turned out to be maybe NOT so in the know. Or, if they ARE in the know, then they’re not all that interested in sharing their experience and expertise with you. It is a tangled web, that’s for sure!
We must never stop learning, and with time, you start to get a better instinct for who to listen to - and that might even be you, yourself.

Yes, absolutely agree

I've said it elsewhere on this thread and elsewhere in the past but I am repeatedly disappointed by the BHS style instructors People think they are doing the right thing by getting qualified help in- it's something that many people are advised on here when they post with an issue. But spend any time on a big yard these days and you'll see a few visiting instructors... I'm sure there are good ones out there who have come through the system and then found their own way but I really hear some questionable things from some... and some frustrated pupils not understanding why they can't progress.

I am helping with 5 very different horses on a fairly regular basis at the moment and I'd be mortified if they weren't showing improvements week on week... I think if I noticed that the people I was teaching were stagnating I'd be either suggesting they move on (not great business sense, granted), or work out a way to advance myself so that I had more to offer them.

You're dead right that we are all dependent on having someone else show us the way forward - thrashing around on your own is a difficult way to learn (though not impossible if you are the kind of person who can learn from mistakes). But I think lots of instruction leads willing pupils down a dead end been there myself. And even that standardised, if limited, way of teaching riding is in decline - not many stage 4 level riding schools about these days (and the stage 4 syllabus is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of teaching HORSES IMO, its very focussed on making tidy riders who can run a yard).

Gurghhhh. Don't know what the answer is, apart from to keep showing anyone who asks, that there is Another Way

 

[milliepops]

Haha! And we just keep going back for more!

that's what makes horses so addictive You never get to the end, there's no anticlimax... just keep pushing on

 

[Cortez]

BHS......don't get me started.

 

[milliepops]

BHS......don't get me started.

problem is, if you're a less experienced rider and you either get into a pickle or just want to improve yourself and your horse, a BHS instructor is the obvious place to start - with the accreditation and insurance etc you might reasonably expect it to be good solid training.

My experience has been quite different and sounds like I'm not alone, I've found a fundamental lack of understanding around the theory of training horses :/ Lots of people with zillions of school exercises in their heads to fire up novice riders, and loads of encouragement, but not a great deal else... and absolutely nothing about 'feel'! I hear a lot of 'leg, leg leg!' and 'don't worry about what his head is doing' resulting in chucking the contact away and hooning about out of balance and rushed out of rhythm... fine for a person learning to ride, but not for someone looking to train their own horse up. People keep telling me the reason they can't get their horses going well is because their legs aren't strong enough at what point are they going to be shown how to make their horses more sensitive?

 

[DirectorFury]

BHS......don't get me started.

problem is, if you're a less experienced rider and you either get into a pickle or just want to improve yourself and your horse, a BHS instructor is the obvious place to start - with the accreditation and insurance etc you might reasonably expect it to be good solid training.

My experience has been quite different and sounds like I'm not alone, I've found a fundamental lack of understanding around the theory of training horses :/ Lots of people with zillions of school exercises in their heads to fire up novice riders, and loads of encouragement, but not a great deal else... and absolutely nothing about 'feel'! I hear a lot of 'leg, leg leg!' and 'don't worry about what his head is doing' resulting in chucking the contact away and hooning about out of balance and rushed out of rhythm... fine for a person learning to ride, but not for someone looking to train their own horse up. People keep telling me the reason they can't get their horses going well is because their legs aren't strong enough at what point are they going to be shown how to make their horses more sensitive?

Somewhat off topic here, but it's really really hard to find good instructors. I've paid £70ph to be basically told to saw on my horses mouth to get her head down (er, no, go away), I've travelled for two hours to someone different and been told the same! I've gone to local clinics organised with semi-big-names and they've all come back to the same thing - get the head down. There, ta da! An outline! And let's just ignore the fact you can't ask the horse do any sort of collection or extension because its arse is somewhere in the next county...

So, how do you find good instruction? How do you know it's good instruction before paying for or travelling to a lesson?

 

[tristar]

well i`ve seen more than a few horses 6 7 8 years on the scrap heap from dressage and not that high a level, but how does one prove they were correctly trained.?.

its not true that all horses `are naturally on the forehand` they have more bodyweight yes but that is different to when they are working, some breeds have a natural point of balance further back.

how can you know the training of the dressage horses was correct, if it broke down the horses? sounds like it was wrong to me

i don`t need to define correct training or justify my opinion to prove anything, this is just a simple debate where all contribute, and base their thoughts on their experiences.

i have seen many horses personally competing to a good age and have known many stallions who competed at international level and still made it to 30, one that springs to mind Le Tot de Semilly and he is a long way from an isolated example, if fact can think of a lot, worked hard still made it to a good age

other tb horses who raced at top level, ie did not have an easy life, are documented in the bloodstock breeders review, 100 years ago no less, lived to their late twenties early thirties, contrary to the modern idea is that they are naturally shortlived

my grandfather trained green hunters and i would dispute that they received no training, ridiculous! in fact they were highly schooled horses for their job.

its only common sense that a horse who is trained correctly will last because of the secondary effects, including a level of fitness, its very hard work, even gentle movements can be tiring but they reach parts of the horse that have far reaching influence on the overall conditioning of the body, and harden the tendons and oil the joints, horses are designed to move, that what they do, in fact one of mine who works hard also spends most of the day running round a field, he must do miles, and i can`t find much wrong with him, in fact being stuck in a stable with insufficient movement must be one of the worst things for a horse.

a horse should thrive on work and get better and better, not breakdown.

 

[Orangehorse]

Somewhat off topic here, but it's really really hard to find good instructors. I've paid £70ph to be basically told to saw on my horses mouth to get her head down (er, no, go away), I've travelled for two hours to someone different and been told the same! I've gone to local clinics organised with semi-big-names and they've all come back to the same thing - get the head down. There, ta da! An outline! And let's just ignore the fact you can't ask the horse do any sort of collection or extension because its arse is somewhere in the next county...

So, how do you find good instruction? How do you know it's good instruction before paying for or travelling to a lesson?

I and my horse are past it now, but I spent many ££££ over the years as what I would call a "Clinic Junky" I attended demos, clinics and lessons on the trail of the Holy Grail of riding - or how to do it. I know quite a lot of theory now, but can't say that I am a wonderful rider even though I would like to be. I would say that I had my best success as a competitor when I was having fairly regular although not frequent lessons with Perry Wood.

I can tell you who can teach you feel - Mark Rashid has a DVD which will tell you how to feel which leg is doing what. Routine for cowboys I gather, as they do canter change of leg at a very early stage of training. Every course I have been on taught me something valuable, and at most of them me and the other participants were wailing "why haven't we been taught this before!" The big trouble is that even these wonderful teachers didn't all agree on everything either! So I am thinking of Mary Wanless, Heather Moffett, Deb Bennett.

I would like all the big names of riding would be shut up in a room somewhere and not allowed out until they could all agree on the fundamental "correct" way of riding that would be taught everywhere in England, from beginner riders, through to Grand Prix. As it is, we thrash and fumble around trying to do things right and then discover we haven't been taught correctly, even fundamental, simple things like keeping the elbow bent.

As my last foray into Clinic World, I had a weekend being taught the "French" school and my horse went wonderfully, but that is controversial as well.

 

[milliepops]

So, how do you find good instruction? How do you know it's good instruction before paying for or travelling to a lesson?

I love watching other people's lessons. I think that's a good commitment free way to decide whether you rate the trainer or not. Offer to video a lesson for someone if people aren't keen on spectators sometimes you can buy cheap spectacular tickets at clinics.

Essentially you don't know until you try otherwise. But even the poor lessons teach you something. ..even if it's "I won't do it that way ever again" :lol:

 

[ycbm]

Tristar it will help if you respond to what I write and not something you imagine you have read.

I did not claim no hunters were schooled, I said that two hunters I knew of still hunting in their mid twenties had never been schooled. I doubt if their training would fit your definition of correct and yet they were both well old for horses in strenuous work.

I did not say that horses are naturally on the forehand, I said that they are naturally weighted into the forehand, which is physically correct.

I don't see the point of discussing whether 'correct' training extends a horses working life if we can't define what 'correct' is.

And actually, I don't think we can. What gives one horse an extended working life could be completely different from what will suit another, as a couple of other posters have already said.




I share everyone's concern about the quality of training and knowing who to trust. There's a list one dressage judge near me and I watched her teach one day. She had the rider running the horse around far too fast for its natural rhythm. She also kept it going for a length of time that I would not have been happy with. I've no idea what was supposed to be being achieved. I've watched a friend's lesson with £100 a session international trainer who made her warm up her four year old mare on the lunge with side reins causing the horse to be noticeably overbent. And then he told her she should have had them shorter.

Of the last two trainers I've tried, both £50 a pop, one spent the lesson on her mobile phone and the other made me wear an earphone so she could bark instruction at me and refused to discuss what we were actually trying to achieve.

I've no experience of them, but the BHS qualifications sound deeply flawed.

 

[tristar]

ycbm, i was not responding to you necessarily, or personally, i am not here to `help` you, you are not conducting this debate or supervising it, and i do not like being accused of imagining things thank you, if i wish to put forward my thoughts i will in the best way i can.

of cause there is correct training but it is largely defined by the horse, through being ridden by a rider with tact and understanding of what they are actually doing and aiming for.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I would like all the big names of riding would be shut up in a room somewhere and not allowed out until they could all agree on the fundamental "correct" way of riding that would be taught everywhere in England,.

If that happened riding skill would die. There is no 'One' way to ride a horse. There are fundamentals but after that you need to ride the horse underneath you, not the theoretical average horse on an average day.

 

[Orangehorse]

If that happened riding skill would die. There is no 'One' way to ride a horse. There are fundamentals but after that you need to ride the horse underneath you, not the theoretical average horse on an average day.

That is riding the individual horse. An experienced instructor/rider will have a whole tool box of different exercises to develop every horse and if one thing doesn't work, they can try another thing.

What I am getting at is that you could go to several different riding schools in the UK and end up being taught different things.
Presumably all the riders at the Spanish Riding School and Samur learn the same way to ride.

 

[ester]

I'm not sure, plenty of different schools of classical as traditional!

 

[Cortez]

That is riding the individual horse. An experienced instructor/rider will have a whole tool box of different exercises to develop every horse and if one thing doesn't work, they can try another thing.

What I am getting at is that you could go to several different riding schools in the UK and end up being taught different things.
Presumably all the riders at the Spanish Riding School and Samur learn the same way to ride.

Yes, that is the whole point - Saumur, the SRS, the Royal School in Jerez, they are all teaching from an established, proven tradition to a professional level, and the students that graduate from there are teaching the same tradition, and so the standards are maintained. What is lacking/has been lost or perhaps never really existed in this part of the world is that reference to ancient learning and technique.

What I see all around me is a mishmash of "new" ideas, wrong ideas, and no ideas! And almost everybody seems to be a novice, new rider with no background of riding and training behind them. Even "qualified" instructors are often novicey riders with no understanding, depth or real experience. Compare this with the requirements for a licensed instructor from Germany/Denmark/France/Spain; all capable of training to a high level and trained on schoolmasters from the very beginning. Different world out there, I can tell you.

 

[LinzyD]

Riding is all about communication between horse and rider, so it's a lot like learning to speak a language. There are fundamental structures and basic rules of grammar that apply pretty much all the time - the principles of keeping a horse between yourself and the ground; then there are pre-learned phrases for a variety of situations - the toolbox of exercises and learned responses; then there is the ability to adapt the language you've learned to communicate with people at all levels and in unexpected situations - riding the individual horse and dealing with problems; and then there is a whole higher level of subtlety, nuance, understanding beyond the spoken word and being able to prompt, interrogate, and get beyond - all the rest of higher levels of training. And if I learn business language I may not be so good at academic language, so I may be good at riding for one discipline, but less good with another. Learning to ride, being able to train a horse, it's a language, a language that is always evolving and never static and finite. And Saumur, etc, that's like being fully conversant in Latin and ancient Greek, the pure forms of language from which other languages in those groups have evolved in different, diluted and adapted forms.

 

[paddi22]

I cant stop looking at that lower leg waving about! What was the question, lol!

in defence of the MP's lower leg, when i have similar rear-y, nappy horses to school, all the focus just goes on 'forward, forward, forward' and there is a technique to use that is very strong leg on in the rhythm you want them to go forward to, it relaxes some horses and they find the strong leg comforting. it looks awful and you don't do it forever, but there is a stage when you are just trying to instill 'forward' and make them focus on the rhythmn. I havent a clue if thats what hes doing, but i'd imagine it is. I don;t know much about him but I've seen other videos where he's riding and his leg doesn't do that, so i assume theres a reason.

 

[ycbm]

ycbm, i was not responding to you necessarily, or personally, i am not here to `help` you, you are not conducting this debate or supervising it, and i do not like being accused of imagining things thank you, if i wish to put forward my thoughts i will in the best way i can.

There is no need for this nasty sniping tristar. You know full well that your comments about horses on the forehand and unschooled hunters were a response directly to me because I and nobody else had made comments about weight on the forehand or unschooled hunters. You may not like being told you had misinterpreted what I had said. I like even less being called ridiculous for something I never said at all.

I would still be very interested in hearing what your personal take on 'correct' schooling/riding is for longevity.




PM I agree with you. I had a horse once where my trainer, who I really loved, laughed and said 'He hasn't read the book, has he?'. He would only settle to work if he was given higher level stuff to do than he 'should' have been ready for. He also used to attack the horse in the mirrors if his mind was not kept active!!!


Is anyone else actually not keen on the real old school /baroque/SRS type of performance? I just find those little horses a bit stuffy to look at and a bit boring to watch. My limitation, I'm sure, in not appreciating the skill in what I'm watching. I also look at pictures of the original masters and see men riding very long with their legs stuck right forwards in a way which would be heavily frowned on today.

 

[Cortez]

Is anyone else actually not keen on the real old school /baroque/SRS type of performance? I just find those little horses a bit stuffy to look at and a bit boring to watch. My limitation, I'm sure, in not appreciating the skill in what I'm watching. I also look at pictures of the original masters and see men riding very long with their legs stuck right forwards in a way which would be heavily frowned on today.

Erm, no. And I ride this way every day, it's my job.

 

[Alexa123]

And the beat goes on! Thought I'd throw this one into the mix (imagine the strain/pressure put on THAT mare's joints! So maybe the thread now needs to move on to the vagaries of breeding! Hah!): ‘Dermott Lennon’s multiple gold medal-winning ride Liscalgot has died aged 26.Known as “Shirley” at home, Dermott took on the Irish sports horse as a four-year-old. “Shirley had many talents and qualities, but the one that always struck me as quite exceptional was her intelligence,” said Dermott.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...got-dies-26-606226#zwy355AEJcWPo3fM.99’

 

[YorksG]

There is no need for this nasty sniping tristar. You know full well that your comments about horses on the forehand and unschooled hunters were a response directly to me because I and nobody else had made comments about weight on the forehand or unschooled hunters. You may not like being told you had misinterpreted what I had said. I like even less being called ridiculous for something I never said at all.

I would still be very interested in hearing what your personal take on 'correct' schooling/riding is for longevity.




PM I agree with you. I had a horse once where my trainer, who I really loved, laughed and said 'He hasn't read the book, has he?'. He would only settle to work if he was given higher level stuff to do than he 'should' have been ready for. He also used to attack the horse in the mirrors if his mind was not kept active!!!


Is anyone else actually not keen on the real old school /baroque/SRS type of performance? I just find those little horses a bit stuffy to look at and a bit boring to watch. My limitation, I'm sure, in not appreciating the skill in what I'm watching. I also look at pictures of the original masters and see men riding very long with their legs stuck right forwards in a way which would be heavily frowned on today.

Having recently seen the Spanish Riding School of Vienna display, nothing stuffy or boring, a beautiful display of excellent training and riding IMHO, with horses swinging through their backs in all paces.

 

[ycbm]

Erm, no. And I ride this way every day, it's my job.

In the photos I've seen of you, gorgeous by the way, you don't look like you stick your legs forward to me

I saw Peter Madison Greenwell (?) at Bolsover and saw stressed little horses scurrying around being bounced off the walls. I've watched a video of someone supposed to be a master, forget his name (1950's ?) riding one handed with the whip in his face, again with the horse scurrying around looking very, very tense. I have seen the SRS too, and that was much better. But none of it floats my boat. As I admit, though, too little appreciation of how much skill is involved.


PS and I mean too little appreciation, not too little understanding

 

[blitznbobs]

Riding is all about communication between horse and rider, so it's a lot like learning to speak a language. There are fundamental structures and basic rules of grammar that apply pretty much all the time - the principles of keeping a horse between yourself and the ground; then there are pre-learned phrases for a variety of situations - the toolbox of exercises and learned responses; then there is the ability to adapt the language you've learned to communicate with people at all levels and in unexpected situations - riding the individual horse and dealing with problems; and then there is a whole higher level of subtlety, nuance, understanding beyond the spoken word and being able to prompt, interrogate, and get beyond - all the rest of higher levels of training. And if I learn business language I may not be so good at academic language, so I may be good at riding for one discipline, but less good with another. Learning to ride, being able to train a horse, it's a language, a language that is always evolving and never static and finite. And Saumur, etc, that's like being fully conversant in Latin and ancient Greek, the pure forms of language from which other languages in those groups have evolved in different, diluted and adapted forms.

I get what you're trying to say but it's not a great analogy modern language is not diluted form on the contrary it is a more nuanced and developed form of language with more subtle cues and complex forms... Here I believe the analogy Holds with the likes of Carl Hester improving the language and understanding between horse and rider... Subtlety should indeed at the centre of horse rider language (with an occasional pony club kick when necessary.)

 

[milliepops]

Is anyone else actually not keen on the real old school /baroque/SRS type of performance? I just find those little horses a bit stuffy to look at and a bit boring to watch. My limitation, I'm sure, in not appreciating the skill in what I'm watching. I also look at pictures of the original masters and see men riding very long with their legs stuck right forwards in a way which would be heavily frowned on today.

The type of horse isn't one that I personally find appealing ( I think my eye has changed in favour of the loose WBs that dominate competitive dressage) but when I watched SRS a few years ago I was struck by the ability of the riders and handlers to create just enough positive tension in the horses to execute the airs above ground, and the horses were completely relaxed immediately afterwards.

That speaks to me of a great deal of skilled and systematic training. The riders were also for the most part in perfect balance with the horses and sat in a way that made me rather envious. I know the SRS is not without controversy but that's what I saw on the day.

As for longevity... perhaps you've inadvertently stumbled upon one definition of correct training then, some of the stallions are well into their 20s and still doing all the high school work.

I haven't been as impressed by other schools but that's my personal opinion

Lots has changed in riding styles so I don't think it's really isolated to the old masters, think about the old style hunting seat vs the newer style of going with the horse over fences.