Help for a horse in need! Please...

[Lady La La]

In that case find these people and name and shame. Don't blame people like OP for other peoples actions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You must realise that's not how the world works, right?

I dont believe anybody is blaming the OP for 'other peoples actions' but the fact still remains that there are some a*s*holes in this world who will do all they can for a quick buck. Its up to you, me, everybody on this earth who owns an animal to do the very best for it when it leaves our care, and that includes trying to protect it from a*s*holes.

'naming and shaming' every idiot on this earth devoid of morals would be impossible - Dont put your horse in a situation where these people can get hold of it. Simples.

 

[*hic*]

There are cases on this forum IIRC where someone has "taken pity" on a horse advertised in just this way and then said horse has been sold on as having no problems.

I'm not saying that any of the people who have offered homes are likely to do this but right back at the beginning of the post I advised looking locally and gave suggestions for loaning by word of mouth to known individuals, not names on a forum, so that she could attempt to retain control of his life.

 

[hayinamanger]

OP I understand that you are trying to help Puffin by finding him a home, he looks a nice boy. You are likely to get a few offers of homes, choose wisely.

Make sure the potential new owners are fully aware of the implications and responsibilities of taking on a horse with a degenerative eye condition. A report from the vet who last examined him would be useful.

He will need monitoring very closely, a vet will show you how to test his vision.

My biggest fear is that, as his sight deteriorates, he will be left in a field and, when he loses his sight completely, he will get himself into real trouble and potentially die in extremis.

I'm always saying this, but there are far worse fates for a horse than PTS

 

[Lady La La]

There are cases on this forum IIRC where someone has "taken pity" on a horse advertised in just this way and then said horse has been sold on as having no problems.

I'm not saying that any of the people who have offered homes are likely to do this but right back at the beginning of the post I advised looking locally and gave suggestions for loaning by word of mouth to known individuals, not names on a forum, so that she could attempt to retain control of his life.

Exactly what I was trying to say... you just put it better

 

[Luci07]

Interesting posts. I have no problem in selling on a horse that isn't right for me. I can't judge the OP because I have never had a horse whose ill health meant he/she had to slow down or couldn't do what I wanted. I do not count my old mare in this as I knew she would slow down eventually due to her age and chose to keep her at a time when I could have sold her on. I felt her I owed her and have done this before. I equally had no problem with selling on a horse I didn't click with. I had emotionial reasons for hanging onto my previous horse and bailed out of selling him many times but finally, with a bit of good luck, did put him up and sold him to a much better home - better as they never want to event so to them he is Mr Fantastic and Not Mr can't do what I want.

I have had a friend - her relatively new horse developed nervicular, went through the treatment and, aged 6 was only going to be able to hack/light dressage. Now she did sell him (cheaply) with full disclosure and access to the vets to a woman who wanted a lovely looking horse but didn't want to do too much. Same friend hung onto the very end with an old pony she had loaned as he had given her so much and felt she owed him. She kept the pony till it was time for him to be PTS.

I do agree you can't compare a horse with a dog or cat though. Vets bills for horses (as we all know) can mount up incredibly quickly, even with insurance plus livery. Says the woman whose young horse has required an emergency visit this morning and put the fear of god into me. Hopefully it is "just" a bad infection and thank god it wasn't colic as we originally thought. Now my bill will come in and be just around my excess..

 

[Ranyhyn]

The thing is, its great that charlie76, you have the indepth knowledge about cataracts - but is anyone IF (i know its a big if) this horse gets into the wrong hands, going to share your view?

This horse has a target market, happy hackers now sometimes, not always, this can be synonymous with novices - will novices have the weath of knowledge you do? Or take one look at this potential problem horse and pass him by in favour of a healthy horse?

I think the latter, and when the person who is naughtilly selling him on tires of him not shifting - will they start lying? Will they send him to a sale? Will he end up on a meat wagon?

I know the only way to be sure that chain of events doesn't happen is to keep them yourselves but if you can also, you do your damn hardest to avoid by loaning, regular checks etc. Which as we all agreed, OP's friend might well do

 

[charlie76]

TBH, if everyone took the view that you should keep every horse until it died and you only ever sold a horse to someone you knew would look after it to yourstandard, ride it to your standard and then promised that they would never sell it on and if they did it would have to be to your standards no one would be getting very far!
Part of selling horse whether they are 100% perfect or not, is judging the person you are selling it to and then having the ability to walk away and move on. This is part of the reality of horse ownership.
A horse is NOT a pet, they cost a lot to keep and take up a lot of time. To expect people to keep horses that are not suitable for they want to do is unrealistic. If you are the lucky owner of stables and grazing then by all means keep them until their dying day but don't condem someone who is paying the best part of £200 a month for livery plus shoes, feed,hay,beddin etc etc ect when they want to move a horse on that is not up to the job they want to do.

Had the OP come on here and said ' can anyone reccomend a dealer with a horse I can Part ex my horse with potential sight problems with' I could understand the out rage, but she didn't, she came on to ask for suggestions for sensible ideas of what to do with a horse that has still a useful life.
And a good part of the response was to PTS, which surely is a last case resort IF and WHEN the horse ever looses its sight, and lets face it, chances are it will die of something else before that happen!

At no point did the OP say that the owner would simply hand the horse over without vetting homes ect but everyone jumped on the 'how heartless' band wagon.

 

[misst]

OP I understand that you are trying to help Puffin by finding him a home, he looks a nice boy. You are likely to get a few offers of homes, choose wisely.

Make sure the potential new owners are fully aware of the implications and responsibilities of taking on a horse with a degenerative eye condition. A report from the vet who last examined him would be useful.

He will need monitoring very closely, a vet will show you how to test his vision.

My biggest fear is that, as his sight deteriorates, he will be left in a field and, when he loses his sight completely, he will get himself into real trouble and potentially die in extremis.

I'm always saying this, but there are far worse fates for a horse than PTS

^^^ This.

I do not think a horse with cataracts needs to be PTS because he has cataracts anymore than for navicular or KS or any other degenerative condition that can be managed. However, if a horse develops a degenerative condition surely it is the owners responsiblity to ensure his future. Loaning may be an option with horse returned when it is no longer useful. However many have pointed out the dangers of missing horses on loan. The thing that annoyed me was the idea that he could be dropped off free to someone with no control over his future use. People can seem nice and have an ulterior motive and he is a pretty looking horse who could be sold on easily.
As for the charity option - don't even start me on that one

If the owner cannot find a secure vetted loan home or forever home with someone she knows then she needs to either look after him herself or do the right thing by him.
Interestingly my vet is from New Zealand and laughs at our British idea of "retirement". He looked at my 27yo, my 2yo and my 12yo that was not rideable and said it was a pity I was saddled with them! He is a fab vet but believes they need a job. Sadly the 12yo deteriorated and was PTS later that year. But I am proud that we have stood by them and my daughter has managed without a competition horse for nearly 3 years rather than move them on or PTS early.

 

[Rachaelpink]

Poor horse. I can understand your friends point of view but it does seem quite harsh given she's kept him and done what she wants to done with him and now she can't do that anymore and he's now old and has problems that she wants to get rid. Personally I couldn't do that. My mare's 16 now and we've had our ups and downs, and I've considered selling her a few times when she was younger, but I couldn't part with her now. I wouldn't be able to cope not knowing how she was. There's too many horses looking for a new home.

 

[Lady La La]

TBH, if everyone took the view that you should keep every horse until it died and you only ever sold a horse to someone you knew would look after it to yourstandard, ride it to your standard and then promised that they would never sell it on and if they did it would have to be to your standards no one would be getting very far!
Part of selling horse whether they are 100% perfect or not, is judging the person you are selling it to and then having the ability to walk away and move on. This is part of the reality of horse ownership.
A horse is NOT a pet, they cost a lot to keep and take up a lot of time. To expect people to keep horses that are not suitable for they want to do is unrealistic. If you are the lucky owner of stables and grazing then by all means keep them until their dying day but don't condem someone who is paying the best part of £200 a month for livery plus shoes, feed,hay,beddin etc etc ect when they want to move a horse on that is not up to the job they want to do.

Had the OP come on here and said ' can anyone reccomend a dealer with a horse I can Part ex my horse with potential sight problems with' I could understand the out rage, but she didn't, she came on to ask for suggestions for sensible ideas of what to do with a horse that has still a useful life.
And a good part of the response was to PTS, which surely is a last case resort IF and WHEN the horse ever looses its sight, and lets face it, chances are it will die of something else before that happen!

At no point did the OP say that the owner would simply hand the horse over without vetting homes ect but everyone jumped on the 'how heartless' band wagon.

The point I made was she isn't very likey to sell this horse...
I did say in an earlier post that if she asked a fee for him it would more than likely put off anyone looking to make a quick buck.
At no point did I say only 'people should only sell their healthy, sound horses to people they know that live locally' - but when there are health issues concerned and the horse is unlikely to reach a fee, precautions DO have to be taken...

 

[Ibblebibble]

TBH, if everyone took the view that you should keep every horse until it died and you only ever sold a horse to someone you knew would look after it to yourstandard, ride it to your standard and then promised that they would never sell it on and if they did it would have to be to your standards no one would be getting very far!
Part of selling horse whether they are 100% perfect or not, is judging the person you are selling it to and then having the ability to walk away and move on. This is part of the reality of horse ownership.
A horse is NOT a pet, they cost a lot to keep and take up a lot of time. To expect people to keep horses that are not suitable for they want to do is unrealistic. If you are the lucky owner of stables and grazing then by all means keep them until their dying day but don't condem someone who is paying the best part of £200 a month for livery plus shoes, feed,hay,beddin etc etc ect when they want to move a horse on that is not up to the job they want to do.

Had the OP come on here and said ' can anyone reccomend a dealer with a horse I can Part ex my horse with potential sight problems with' I could understand the out rage, but she didn't, she came on to ask for suggestions for sensible ideas of what to do with a horse that has still a useful life.
And a good part of the response was to PTS, which surely is a last case resort IF and WHEN the horse ever looses its sight, and lets face it, chances are it will die of something else before that happen!

At no point did the OP say that the owner would simply hand the horse over without vetting homes ect but everyone jumped on the 'how heartless' band wagon.

oh but it's much more fun to jump on the bandwagon than to be realistic according to some on here it's the devils own work to be selling or rehoming any horse ever!! if none of us ever moved a horse on for any reason, just kept them to the end of their days there would be no horses to buy

 

[BBH]

The industry would die if no horses were ever sold on and everyone kept them till their death. Just the same as not replacing your car till it was 26 yrs old and refused to start.

Very little money is generated by old horses

Breeders wouldn't be able to earn a living cos no one would buy until their oldie died which given horses can live till their 30+ is a very long time to wait.
Instructors would have fewer lessons or schooling work
livery yards would grind to a halt as most elderly horses are kept very cheaply at home or grass livery
Insurance wouldn't be needed as too expensive on an oldie or pre condition
Show centres wouldn't have the entries

The whole industry is reliant on people moving horses around through buying and selling or loaning / sharing and as long as its done with compassion it has to happen to keep horse sport be it pleasure or competition and livelihoods going.

 

[1973horse]

NO I don't think he needs to be PTS but I think if the owner does not want him he deserves security in his later years and I would not like to think of a horse going blind in changing circumstances. If he were mine I would not PTS I would give him the retirement he deserves even I had to go without the horse I wanted

this

 

[felixlight]

Do you know anyone that might be able to help my friends horse? Hes a 14.3hh appaloosax 15years old thats in need of a new home. Hes got cataracts so cant be sold really. At the minute, he can still be ridden, infact- hes great fun to ride! Willl happily hack anywhere and jumps XC etc. Only a few weeks ago he went out to Highclere fun ride and jumped everything. Hes a lovely boy-hence me saying id do this and put up a post on here....But one day his cataracts will make him blind. Hes got them in both eyes- one is worse that the other though. The vet says hes got years and years left...before it makes him blind. Hes got sarcoids too the poor soul.

My friend has a heart of gold and doesnt want to put him to sleep as he is still perfectly sound and happy and she does ride him out most days.

But she wants a horse she can do lots of things on and Puffin can only really be hacked and cant be jumped to the degree that she wants to and she cant afford to keep him as a companion.
her other option is a charity- i dont know if anyone knows of one that might be able to help? She doesnt want a penny for him- but she does want to know hes happy and hes not being passed around.

If anyone knows anyone or any charity please let me know.

Thanks!

Maybe your friend should just do the responsible thing and choose only to hack, rather than be a spoilt brat who can't keep this horse because she wants to jump!

 

[michelleyork]

I havent read all 11 pages of this thread, I got through to page 6 and could see where this was going.

The OP came on to the forum for some help and advice and has been shot down in flames!! Its not even her own horse, she is asking on behalf of someone.

I realise it can be an emotive subject, horses coming to the end of their workings lives is it right to loan/gift/sell/PTS. BUT at the same time, unless you know the whole of the story is it really fair to make a judemental opinion??

If you cant come on places like this forum for help and advice and get a civilised response where are people suposed to go??

 

[Alibear]

I usually stay out of these posts.

I think the whole PTS answer is because , on this forum and elsewhere over the years we've seen this situation go wrong for the horse many times. The owner has done their best and loaned or sent with a contract but things have gone wrong, the horse has gone missing and shown up either in very ill health or buted up to the eyeballs and competing despite a broken pedal bone etc. Or perhaps with new owners who are under the impression the horse is perfectly well fit and able and have paid lots for it!

None of us like seeing this happen or even hearing of it happen. It's horrible what some people will do. Heck there's a whole long running post in the stolen horses forum about horses missing on loan. Some are missing having probably been sent to potters which is just horrible when the original person loaned them out to a loving companion home and in several instances checked on them for months on end before they disappeared.

Others have a great first new home, but then get ill and go onto a another lower level home which is just not quite so great, then they go on again , and so on until they end up in some of the above horrible situations.

Heck I even know of one who spent 18 month very happily on retirement livery when he was starting to show signs of deteriorating the owner spoke with the livery owner about perhaps the time to PTS was coming that autumn, 2 weeks later the horse was "stolen" from retirement livery never to be seen by the owner again!

So it's very right to be very wary.

That said there are also a few cases on here and else where that horses did get a new loving home with someone they clicked with and they are either still having a great time or had a very caring retirement with a peaceful end when the time came.

What so many are wary of is we know the latter cases are few and far between, despite many of the former cases owners having done their best to ensure their horses future. although I do suspect there's some media type slant on this, I suspect we don't here about all the cases where it went well as it's not as interesting to many as the opposite sort.

So yes a nice new home is possible but it will take time effort and long term hard work and checks. It could still go wrong even if you do all this.

Someone mentioned freeze marking, micro-chipping etc, which is definitley a good starting point and register the horse with the companies for life not just a year.

Good luck, what ever happens.

Oh and unless I completely misunderstood the first post I would say it's already been confirmed that this horse unfortunately has cataracts of the type that are getting progressively worse as time goes. They could reach a level and not deteriorate any more or the rate of deterioration could suddenly speed up. There's just no knowing what will happen with that type unfortunatley.

 

[Syrah]

I think there is a huge difference between moving a horse on because it's been outgrown/doesn't gel with new owner/won't achieve the level the owner expects etc but is physically 100% than because of a degenerative medical problem that has developed after several years of ownership.

PTS is extreme and unecessary in this case.

Hopefully the horse will find a forever home with one of the posters who have shown an interest on here.

 

[Empy&Treacle]

Just to offer something positive... Good luck to the OP's friend.

And now IMO, horses will continue to give right up until the day they physically can no longer. This horse has time left to be loved by someone who wants what he can give and will not question it... and believe it or not there actually are honest people out there who would love a horse that can offer them this and won't be in it to make a cheap buck by selling him on - i know you are only warning the OP, but it p***es me off all horsey people who can't spend more than a couple of hundred/thousand basically get tarred with the same brush that they don't have the horse's best interest at heart and don't genuinely want to love a horse!!! Cataracts in a horse that is otherwise fit and well are not compromising for an owner who wants to offer a quieter life. The new owner will be aware of the situation and therefore will be hyper-sensitive to any changes in this horse's character and will do what is right at the right time. Before the PTS opinion comes along I've had two young horses PTS because physically they were in pain and all operations had been done and still they were not able to be hacked/used as a companion; this boy on the other hand is living with his condition and so long as he is sound and isn't walking in to things then he is more than able to offer someone some fun and the OP should not be shunned for trying to do this.

It is everyone's choice to try to do what is best for their horse and we all have different opinions, however to say you would never sell a horse if it couldn't offer you what you wanted anymore then, good luck in setting up your own charity!!! Horses are loved, but get outgrown in height and ability and are moved on to give someone else the pleasure of what that animal can offer... welcome to the real world of those of us who sadly do not have money growing trees!

OP, your friend's horse looks very sweet and I'm sure someone will responsibly take him on. Maybe ABC will be able to offer the home he needs

 

[Lady La La]

if none of us ever moved a horse on for any reason, just kept them to the end of their days there would be no horses to buy

Doubtful.. what with all the idiots in this world breeding their ten a penny sh**e whenever they feel like it.

... but just imagine if what you say is true... rescue centres no longer bulging at the seems, no horses going through the sale ring for 2 quid, no horses left neglected, starving or abused. Wouldn't that be just AWFUL

 

[Flame_]

What to do with a not-100%-healthy but not-100%-knackered horse part 5000000000000010.

Options

Reduced workload if sound/healthy enough
Total retirement if sound/healthy enough
Loan out to home offering one of the above with good references
PTS

Sell if horse has any value at all
Give away
Send to a market
Send it to a charity
Dump it in a random field and hope some mug adopts it

The first four are responsible, the last five are risky and/or pretty dubious in the ethics department, although some people would put PTS in that category too.

 

[Natch]

1) I find it distasteful that the owner thinks "out with the old, in with the new," but do think they are acting responsibly-ish. "Donating" to a charity IS palming the horse off.

2) I find it worrying that they want to gift, not loan. Hope the OP can talk them into sense there. All they need to do is save up 1 month's livery, diesel costs and disposal costs, to be able to ensure that if a loan is terminated they have the finances available to collect and rehome, or PTS.

3) I thought advertising was banned on this forum?

 

[Spotsrock]

he looks like my horse. I like him. Have Pm'd OP. I have one with cateracts at present but she is 31!

 

[cptrayes]

Hasn't Charlie76 just proved it is possible? Of course you are dealing also with peoples honesty and good nature but isn't that the best thing you can do - at least try?

I don't disagree the OP's friend deserves to be happy and fulfill her dreams but she also ultimately has a responsibility to try her hardest to secure his future as best she can. I know it might be a bit pie in the sky to try and do so - but just the action of doing so shows a real dedication to a horse and is something that hopefully buyers/loaners will respond to in kind.

No one said that she should not try, but you said "I'd tie that horse up so tightly that his future would be as sure as though he were with me.. " and I was just pointing out that this is impossible.

 

[cptrayes]

Ahh Cptrayes, I'm sure there's a post somewhere of you revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads... You don't keep any of your horses into retirement, do you?

What a stupid post. If you can find that reference about me Lady La La then I will give you £10,000. I have never had a horse shot who was capable of living a happy life for a day longer than he had. I would never have a horse shot who someone else was capable of giving a good life to. Where did you get that ridiculous, and incidentally libellous, idea? Care to let me know your real name so that I can start court proceedings against you or shall I contact the ISP to find out who you are? Be VERY careful with statements like that, you may feel anonymous and big and brave because of it, but you are easily traceable through the unique reference of your IP address should anyone be more offended by your libellous rubbish than I am.

 

[Lady La La]

What a stupid post. If you can find that reference about me Lady La La then I will give you £10,000. I have never had a horse shot who was capable of living a happy life for a day longer than he had. I would never have a horse shot who someone else was capable of giving a good life to. Where did you get that ridiculous, and incidentally libellous, idea? Care to let me know your real name so that I can start court proceedings against you or shall I contact the ISP to find out who you are? Be VERY careful with statements like that, you may feel anonymous and big and brave because of it, but you are easily traceable through the unique reference of your IP address should anyone be more offended by your libellous rubbish than I am.

Gosh that sounds a tad dramatic!
- I'm sure we had a conversation together about a similar subject on one of the PTS threads that's done the rounds on here, in which you said if a horse cant do its job you get rid. You have my deepest and most heartfelt appologies if I'm incorrect, I didn't at any point say I was certain

... My names Jenny, by the way. Feel free to PM me if you'd like the rest of my information, or like you say, you can trace my IP address
I meant no offence by my comment, I genuinely thought it was something you said...
...It must have been someone else..............

Out of interest, Do you keep your horses into retirement? You dont have to answer me at all, I'm just curious, that's all.

 

[Syrah]

Is it possible to be libelous against a forum persona?

 

[cshw]

Gosh, what a nasty lot of people you are in the main. I joined Horse and Hound forum very recently, but have now decided to leave it alone. Incidentally, I am a Vet, who's been qualified for 24 years, and unlike the vast majority of respondents, I would never pass judgement on this situation without knowing all the facts, clinical and non-clinical. Some people need to enter the real world. All my horses/ponies have a forever home, but that's my choice. I am astounded at the level of sheer uncalled-for nastiness that pervades here. Very unhealthy.

 

[cptrayes]

Gosh that sounds a tad dramatic!
- I'm sure we had a conversation together about a similar subject on one of the PTS threads that's done the rounds on here, in which you said if a horse cant do its job you get rid. You have my deepest and most heartfelt appologies if I'm incorrect, I didn't at any point say I was certain

... My names Jenny, by the way. Feel free to PM me if you'd like the rest of my information, or like you say, you can trace my IP address
I meant no offence by my comment, I genuinely thought it was something you said...
...It must have been someone else..............

Out of interest, Do you keep your horses into retirement? You dont have to answer me at all, I'm just curious, that's all.

Jenny WHAT?

You meant no offence! "revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads..." and you meant no offence! Don't make me laugh. You are either lying or stupid.

I do not feel ANYONE is obliged to offer a horse a home for life. It is of no relevance whether I do so myself or not, and I have no problem with anyone else's choices in the matter as long as they do their absolute best to secure the horse's future. I wish there was similar tolerance among some of the other people contributing to this thread.

 

[cptrayes]

Is it possible to be libelous against a forum persona?

Yes.

But I am not a forum persona. I detest the kind of bullying that has gone on on this thread and I believe it is caused primarily by anonymity. I never post under anything but my own name. I AM C P TRAYES, not a "persona"

 

[Ranyhyn]

Cptrayes what are you going on about now? Starting court proceedings? This place has me howling some days - how people can say it's gone to the dogs I don't know. It just gets more and more farcical every day