Help - I rescued a Patterdale!!

ponyparty said:
Well done for persevering! Terriers - particularly those of working lines - can be difficult dogs, but so rewarding. They are so intelligent! Mine outsmarts me on a regular basis.... I always said, after a relative had a terrier when I was a child, that I would never have one haha.... Never say never!
I have been toying with buying this book: "Terrier-centric Dog Training: From Tenacious to Tremendous" by Dawn Antoniak-Mitchell.
Looks interesting from the sneak preview on Amazon and you may find it useful...

ETA: eugh, didn't realise it was American. Might not be as good as I thought. Perhaps worth a punt though?!
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Thanks for your post, we keep plodding on with the little chap. I have been looking at other terrier books, so I'll check that one out too. I wonder if the library has any so that I can see which one is best for me before I buy one. Is your terrier a working dog?
 
gallopingby said:
Have you looked on www.patterdaleterrierrescue.co.uk they may be able to help you. I volunteer for a gundog rescue and we are able to provide support/links if required for the breeds we help. I do think its unfair that the rescue your dog came from weren't more thorough in their assessment of the dog and home it was going to. I certainly wouldn't be returning to the centre responsible for rehoming but a specialist breed rescue may be able to help, it seems you are making progress but there will be good and bad days.
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Thanks for your post. The rescue centre tried their best, as he had been with a family for a few weeks I suppose they didn't think he could be too bad. I agree with you though, if we send him back to the original centre he could end up in a similar situation and he needs to be settled. I have looked at that site before, but I don't really see a support section. I looked at another site and they said if you're thinking of re-homing, contact us we may be able to help. I did so and they gave me the number for an 'expert' I called and arranged a time to call her back as she was busy just then and I only get voice mail when I call!!!

I got him to stay for 8 steps today another record. Progress is being made. He is a sulker though, he was on the chair and my husband just told him to get down, which he did, then then went to he bed and wouldn't look at either of us. He sometimes just stand tail down and head down and doesn't move for ten minutes, for no reason, I wonder if he is bi-polar!!
 
That's pretty normal dog body language.
Personally speaking I wouldn't set him up to fail and would remove the conflict by putting obstacles on the furniture when not in use. Clothes drivers, upturned washing baskets etc.
These will make the human furniture less attractive to him if he can't get comfortable.

With a dog like this he would never be on the furniture...some dogs, particularly those without whom a proper relationship is yet established, don't know the different between sometimes allowed and sometimes not. Sometimes when we feel like a cuddle but not allowed whenever we feel like it, isn't fair to dogs like this.

Also I wouldn't confuse the commands for off and down. He was probably already lying DOWN on the furniture. OFF should be the command for getting off something.
 
CorvusCorax said:
That's pretty normal dog body language.
Personally speaking I wouldn't set him up to fail and would remove the conflict by putting obstacles on the furniture when not in use. Clothes drivers, upturned washing baskets etc.
These will make the human furniture less attractive to him if he can't get comfortable.

With a dog like this he would never be on the furniture...some dogs, particularly those without whom a proper relationship is yet established, don't know the different between sometimes allowed and sometimes not. Sometimes when we feel like a cuddle but not allowed whenever we feel like it, isn't fair to dogs like this.

Also I wouldn't confuse the commands for off and down. He was probably already lying DOWN on the furniture. OFF should be the command for getting off something.
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Well we do use the 'off' command, I was just saying what had happened. My other dog never stood bent over just staring at nothing, maybe he's having a power nap.LOL He's never allowed on the furniture and most times he will come down when commanded to. He likes the one chair as he likes to look out of the window. He knows he's not allowed, he sometimes jumps down before being asked. He is defiant at times though. I'm going to buy him a nice comfortable bed - well, another one- so that he is comfortable on his own stuff.
 
It's a stress signal and personally I wouldn't approach a dog displaying that behaviour - it might be worth looking into these signals to avoid any snapping or biting again as that would be a big red flag to me that it's on the cards (generally).
So would try and find some way to physically prevent him being on there in the first place and avoiding the conflict in this particular scenario.
 
Mine isn't a working dog no, he's a Manchester terrier - they're not the easiest of breeds, although mine has (thankfully) matured into a well rounded little dog. I have definitely had a few "argh what have i done?!" moments though - I've had him since 8 weeks old and when he hit adolescence it was pretty challenging. Wouldn't change him for the world though - and would have another in a heartbeat!
You may just find that you need to relearn what you thought you knew about dogs. Terriers just aren't wired up the same as other breeds. Sounds like you're doing all you can already - definitely second getting in touch with the breed rescue, also see if there are any groups on Facebook specifically for Patterdales. I know that the Manchester Terrier facebook group has helped keep me sane and realise that what I thought was odd behaviour was actually completely normal for a MT! It's nice to be able to share stories and anecdotes and ask for advice from those who know the breed inside out.
 
Or another idea is move the chair away from the window if that's logistically possible. Might also remove a platform for him to go off alarming at things outside. At the moment he probably thinks it's his gaffe and he controls who comes and goes and tells you about all the dangers lurking outside.
You have to teach him that no, it's ok, you and the OH are taking care of that and it's not something for him to worry about. Will make him feel more stable too. It's not fun for dogs to be constantly on the alert.
 
I'm also confused about getting a head collar or harness to stop the dog from pulling. The reason I started this thread was because I was at my wits end with the pulling on the lead, and the lunging and barking at other dogs. Quite honestly, if someone had come and said they'd have him last week I would have given him away gladly, he'd injured me three times in a few days. Nothing permanent, but the strain is awful and walk not enjoyable at all. Some people say use one, others say don't. Is it better to use an anti pull harness in conjunction with training to make everything a bit less stressed? I don't like the head collars.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Or another idea is move the chair away from the window if that's logistically possible. Might also remove a platform for him to go off alarming at things outside. At the moment he probably thinks it's his gaffe and he controls who comes and goes and tells you about all the dangers lurking outside.
You have to teach him that no, it's ok, you and the OH are taking care of that and it's not something for him to worry about. Will make him feel more stable too. It's not fun for dogs to be constantly on the alert.
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Not possible to move the chair. To be honest, this has improved massively, he used to be on the chair the minute we blinked when he first came, now just now and then, usually if we're in the kitchen. He stays in the hall when we are not in the house. He has moments when he barks at anything when he is not on the furniture. I reassure him and sometimes go with him to show him that there is nothing that I am worried about. I can say cone and sit down and shh him and that usually works most of the time now. He is coming on.
 
ponyparty said:
Mine isn't a working dog no, he's a Manchester terrier - they're not the easiest of breeds, although mine has (thankfully) matured into a well rounded little dog. I have definitely had a few "argh what have i done?!" moments though - I've had him since 8 weeks old and when he hit adolescence it was pretty challenging. Wouldn't change him for the world though - and would have another in a heartbeat!
You may just find that you need to relearn what you thought you knew about dogs. Terriers just aren't wired up the same as other breeds. Sounds like you're doing all you can already - definitely second getting in touch with the breed rescue, also see if there are any groups on Facebook specifically for Patterdales. I know that the Manchester Terrier facebook group has helped keep me sane and realise that what I thought was odd behaviour was actually completely normal for a MT! It's nice to be able to share stories and anecdotes and ask for advice from those who know the breed inside out.
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I'll look for a Facebook page. Before we'd had the dog a week I realised that this was no ordinary dog! We barely needed to train our other rescue dog and she was not as smart as this one. She would have been winning Crufts if we'd put this amount of effort into her training!
 
I wouldn't use a harness to be honest and I wouldn't be 'walking' him in the classic sense.

I would put the work in with him in training (and that will be weeks and months of training him to walk nicely, which will tire him out!) and 'exercise' him by making him use his brain.
Every time he tows you somewhere, it's a self rewarding exercise and he's won.
If you go into a sport like canicross or bikejor the dog is encouraged to pull and it's an activity and a purpose. You teach a distinction between when is appropriate to pull and when is not.

I've been there and it's boring and frustrating and I've had every dog related injury under the sun but when your dog walks down the street on a loose line then you know it's all worth it!
Currently nursing a very sore bum after an amazing comedy pratfall on Saturday night (which wasn't the dogs fault in fairness) and two very bruised hands (someone else's dog!)
 
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Oh and to make you feel even better my dearest darling doggie DID injure me this weekend when he smashed his skull into my eye socket. The pratfall happened ten minutes later and superseded the headbutt, which I am SURE was done with affection ;) in terms of ouchiness.
 
Update on my little chap. I took him to another trainer who seems a bit more clued up with reactive dogs. He did some good stuff with him and managed to let him play with two of his dogs on a long trainer lead but free for a good few minutes. He had him walking close to him to heel and my dog really looked happy running around the field with the other dogs. The only thing I didn't like was him using a slip lead on him. He looked to be in discomfort, I don't think I'll get one of those, but I'm using his collar rather than his harness for training parts of is walk. I going to use his heeling method in conjunction with a more positive approach to stop him from lunging and barking which I just found online. I have to report back in a couple of weeks to let him know how we'e getting on. I forgot to ask him if all of his walks should be close to heel or just training ones, as my dog doesn't like being held close to heel. I know the point is to get him better on the lead, but he has to have some fun in life. My arms are aching and dithery from holding him so tight on the lead, this is not going to be fun for me either, must persevere though.
 
Sounds like progress!

I like slip leads.

If he has a bit of discomfort in his life, it won't kill him. Its like pressure and release with horses. Do X = momentary discomfort. Stop doing X = discomfort ceases. I'll post a link in a moment.

With that in mind, when you're walking there should never be constant pressure on the leash. If there is pressure constantly, of course the dog will resist and he'll never learn anything. You'll be undoing anything this trainer is working on.
Personally speaking, if my dog pulls, he goes nowhere. When the line goes slack, we go forward. If that takes weeks of not going further than a few steps, so be it. It might not be 'fun for either but long term it teaches him something.
If the dog constantly pulls and constantly gets to where he wants to go and what he wants to do, what does he learn?
 
CorvusCorax said:
Sounds like progress!

I like slip leads.

If he has a bit of discomfort in his life, it won't kill him. Its like pressure and release with horses. Do X = momentary discomfort. Stop doing X = discomfort ceases. I'll post a link in a moment.

With that in mind, when you're walking there should never be constant pressure on the leash. If there is pressure constantly, of course the dog will resist and he'll never learn anything. You'll be undoing anything this trainer is working on.
Personally speaking, if my dog pulls, he goes nowhere. When the line goes slack, we go forward. If that takes weeks of not going further than a few steps, so be it. It might not be 'fun for either but long term it teaches him something.
If the dog constantly pulls and constantly gets to where he wants to go and what he wants to do, what does he learn?
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I told the trainer that I just stop and he suggested to keep going. I think he just thinks the discomfort will stop him from pulling eventually, because he was pulling when he brought the dogs out. He doesn't pull all the time, he was perfect on the way back, but then, he often is.
 
CorvusCorax said:
http://growingupguidepup.org/the-punishment-of-positive-only/
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'The end result is Dexter. A Weimaraner-Viszla mix that was twice relinquished to a kill shelter, because potential death at the end of a hypodermic needle at ten months of age was considered kinder than a leash correction and the word “no.”'

That part is so true, I'm conflicted by people telling me/reading you shuldn't use a halti, slip leads etc and watching my dog take a lunging, barking step back to the rescue centre. A bit of discomfort now and he could have a good life with us, or am I abusing him so have to R+ and take him back to the rescue centre because I can't handle his reactive behaviour? Thanks for that article.
 
Well done you for rescuing the world's worst/best dog
I've also got a rescue patterdale, about 6 years ago now, he lured me in with his best angelic face and only later did i learn i'd adopted the devil. But best little devil ever. He hacks out with me too so is excellent off lead, but it took about a year of persistence to achieve that.

Just to give you some insight into what's ahead for you I wrote this some time ago:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...essons-%96-24-things-learnt-from-a-Patterdale
 
Molasses said:
Well done you for rescuing the world's worst/best dog
I've also got a rescue patterdale, about 6 years ago now, he lured me in with his best angelic face and only later did i learn i'd adopted the devil. But best little devil ever. He hacks out with me too so is excellent off lead, but it took about a year of persistence to achieve that.

Just to give you some insight into what's ahead for you I wrote this some time ago:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...essons-%96-24-things-learnt-from-a-Patterdale
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Ha, I'm half way down the list in between doing the cleaning. Check, check and check. He hates strong wind and has just taken on the vacuum cleaner.
 
Pattie said:
I told the trainer that I just stop and he suggested to keep going. …….. .
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If the basics of heel walking are approached in such a fashion by your trainer, I'd wonder what other aspects to their work are in doubt.

The principles of heel walking are that the dog walks with you, is mindful of where you are and adjusts it's walking speed to suit you — NOT the other way about. The discomfort attached to pulling on a lead probably won't have any effect until the dog is about 14 years of age. With permanent contact via the lead and the dog 3 or 4 lengths in front of you, the effect is that the dog has no need to consider you or where you are because he knows.

All of that said, you have a Patterdale and if you ever actually manage any permanent degree of correct heel walking …. then you will be entitled to consider yourself at the top of the Trainer's leader board! I suppose we could research whether anyone has Patterdales in obedience competition (OK so there's bound to be one at least!), such is their outlook on life.

I said to you, I believe and pages back, that any progress would be slow, very slow, but having read your first few posts it would seem to me that there are improvements, even though they're seemingly slight. I also suspect that you've listened and taken on board the entirely sensible advice of other posters and that you may be viewing the dog and your approach from a more practical and realistic direction. Well done!

Alec.
 
Oh and when we got back home from the trainer, I took him for his walk. Let him stay out n the yard for a few minutes then brought him in. Minutes later I noticed that he had urinated in his lounge bed. Give me strength.
 
Molasses said:
Well done you for rescuing the world's worst/best dog
I've also got a rescue patterdale, about 6 years ago now, he lured me in with his best angelic face and only later did i learn i'd adopted the devil. But best little devil ever. He hacks out with me too so is excellent off lead, but it took about a year of persistence to achieve that.

Just to give you some insight into what's ahead for you I wrote this some time ago:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...essons-%96-24-things-learnt-from-a-Patterdale
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This is BRILLIANT! So funny and a lot could also apply to a Manchester...
 
It sounds like you are doing really well.
In a training book for labs I was reading it recommended a choke chain, rather than a slip lead, as it said if you put them on correctly the dog gets an audible warning that it is about to become tight. Not sure if that would be any help, or if the risk of injury would be too high. Also, being a terrier a rattle probably would not press the off button. :-)
The trainer in the book also says say heel when you set out, in a postitive but firm voice, and then keep the lead short wenough that they have to be next to you. Say 'no' if they pull, so many of us keep saying 'heel' which when they aren't is just making it a meaningless word to be ignored. Since we started training the pups like that they picked up heel a lot quicker. (We don't use choke chains, although I used to in Australia with no ill effects). You sort of go along saying heel in a nice voice when they are roughly right and then no in a sharp voice when they aren't. I also knee them to push them off balance if they pull, a la Cesar Milan.
 
Clodagh said:
It sounds like you are doing really well.
In a training book for labs I was reading it recommended a choke chain, rather than a slip lead, as it said if you put them on correctly the dog gets an audible warning that it is about to become tight. Not sure if that would be any help, or if the risk of injury would be too high. Also, being a terrier a rattle probably would not press the off button. :-)
The trainer in the book also says say heel when you set out, in a postitive but firm voice, and then keep the lead short wenough that they have to be next to you. Say 'no' if they pull, so many of us keep saying 'heel' which when they aren't is just making it a meaningless word to be ignored. Since we started training the pups like that they picked up heel a lot quicker. (We don't use choke chains, although I used to in Australia with no ill effects). You sort of go along saying heel in a nice voice when they are roughly right and then no in a sharp voice when they aren't. I also knee them to push them off balance if they pull, a la Cesar Milan.
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Thanks. that is useful advice re heel and 'no', though some pet forums say never say no! I will though. I do keep him next to me but he is so strong, my chest hurts from holding him today.
 
Pattie said:
some pet forums say never say no!
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Really?! Never, even if their dog is chewing their favourite handbag, or getting a bit rough with play biting? Or about to eat something poisonous? Or jumping up at a guest's face who is terrified of dogs?

I think teaching a dog the meaning of the word "No" - or a sharp "a, a!" - is so important. Especially with a terrier - they are so feisty and wilful. They need even firmer handling than many large dogs. Clear boundaries which are ALWAYS enforced.

Before mine was neutered, if he saw another dog he'd lunge toward it (mostly to try and hump it, rather than anything aggressive). This became a nightmare at Badminton last year - there were so many dogs! He lunged and lunged and eventually made me spill my champagne! That was the final straw, as you can imagine ;) I marched him off to a stand selling pet supplies and got a figure-of-8 lead (I was going to get a Halti but he would not tolerate it at all). He behaved impeccably in the figure of 8. I still occasionally use it, say if we're going to a crowded area and I need him under close control; but I just use it as a slip lead for normal everyday use. I can't recommend a figure-of-8 enough - versatile, easy to use, safe, well tolerated by my dog. He can still bark, pant, drink and take treats whilst wearing it. I'd say it has been invaluable in teaching him to walk to heel, and he will walk nicely in just a slip lead now.
 
Sounds like you're making steps forward with him and anyone that's willing to rescue a Crocodale deserves a medal in my eyes.

I really dont have much advise other than, would you be happy tailoring your life around him, more so than a normal dog? For me, that really takes some of the enjoyment away from dog ownership. The, being worried about if you see dogs out on your walk or certain friends/family not wanting to come round because they're scared or what you do with him when you go on holiday, is he suitable for kennelling? Probably cant leave him with family, friends or even when (and he will) comes trotting in proud as punch from the garden with the neighbours cat, fox, the post man hanging out his mouth.

Always things to consider and it''s just whether you're happy to take those extra precautions for the next 10-13 years
 
This dog is said 'no' to, very often. don't think I can put up with this. it's the pulling and walking I can't stand. I ist lost my rag with him, did it work? NO! to cap the walk off, we met another dog and he started barking and carrying on. I can't do this.
 
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