Help - I rescued a Patterdale!!

[TGM]

Really?! Never, even if their dog is chewing their favourite handbag, or getting a bit rough with play biting? Or about to eat something poisonous? Or jumping up at a guest's face who is terrified of dogs?

I think teaching a dog the meaning of the word "No" - or a sharp "a, a!" - is so important. Especially with a terrier - they are so feisty and wilful. They need even firmer handling than many large dogs. Clear boundaries which are ALWAYS enforced.

I think the logic behind not saying 'No' is that a dog can't do a 'No' - so rather than saying 'No' all the time, you actually tell the dog what you want them to do. So if the dog is doing something they shouldn't you might tell them to 'come', 'leave', 'down', or whatever is appropriate at the time. I do agree with this in part, because it must be very confusing for a dog to be told 'no' all the time, in a range of very different circumstances, plus they tend to become rather immune to it. However, I do agree that it is useful to have an emergency response, like a very loud 'no', or 'oi', or similar. But I think a lot of the effect is actually because it startles the dog into stopping whatever they are doing!

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. . But I think a lot of the effect is actually because it startles the dog into stopping whatever they are doing!

I'd doubt that it matters what we 'say', providing that we achieve the end result!

Alec.

 

[splashgirl45]

This dog is said 'no' to, very often. don't think I can put up with this. it's the pulling and walking I can't stand. I ist lost my rag with him, did it work? NO! to cap the walk off, we met another dog and he started barking and carrying on. I can't do this.

dont give up, this post sounds a bit desperate... why not try a halti or figure of 8 or a slip lead so that you can walk without getting your arms pulled out of their sockets....i know you dont like them but why not try, it may just be a help to get him concentrating on you and not anything else on the walk the once you have mastered that you can use an ordinary collar. i dont understand why you are letting him pull you about and are only using a nice gentle collar, he needs to be taught that this behaviour isnt acceptable and if he gets a little uncomfortable for a while he may learn. he isnt a tiny puppy so a bit of tough love is acceptable...

 

[CorvusCorax]

If a dog doesn't learn the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour then it is guessing all the time and having to make choices all the time and dogs can find that incredibly stressful. They're generally the ones with grey whiskers by the time they're four or five.

Pattie...my last dog was 40kg. This one is 31kg when not in work. I'm not a big or strong person physically.
I've been there with the tears and the tantrums and the constant aches and pains and walks being a torture that I dreaded every evening.
But both dogs have changed my life for the better, taught me so much and helped expose me to great people and amazing experiences. We got there in the end.

Use a tool If you have to, lose your rag occasionally (but don't be unfair on the dog), you can do this (if of course you want to...and he's still with you )

 

[TGM]

I'd doubt that it matters what we 'say', providing that we achieve the end result!

Alec.

I think you are right in that at that point in time when we want the dog to do what we want, it is just important to get the end result. However, I think it does help in the greater scheme of things to understand the difference between a 'taught' command, such as 'sit', 'down', 'stay' etc., and the way we utilise a dog's natural reaction to our advantage, such as a loud 'oi' to startle or distract them.

 

[Pattie]

dont give up, this post sounds a bit desperate... why not try a halti or figure of 8 or a slip lead so that you can walk without getting your arms pulled out of their sockets....i know you dont like them but why not try, it may just be a help to get him concentrating on you and not anything else on the walk the once you have mastered that you can use an ordinary collar. i dont understand why you are letting him pull you about and are only using a nice gentle collar, he needs to be taught that this behaviour isnt acceptable and if he gets a little uncomfortable for a while he may learn. he isnt a tiny puppy so a bit of tough love is acceptable...

We'd already decided to get a Halti before I read your post. I try holding him in the heel position, but he's just too strong,he walks into me as well so it's a really uncomfortable position for me. He's small but deadly! I'm not sure he'll accept the Halti, but got to give it a try. It's ok for that trainer letting him close to his dogs who he has full control over, but I've just had two bouts of barking on the walk, one fella doesn't put his dogs on a lead ever, even when they ran over to me one time. He soon started going the other way when my dog got into full flow.

 

[Pattie]

If a dog doesn't learn the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour then it is guessing all the time and having to make choices all the time and dogs can find that incredibly stressful. They're generally the ones with grey whiskers by the time they're four or five.

Pattie...my last dog was 40kg. This one is 31kg when not in work. I'm not a big or strong person physically.
I've been there with the tears and the tantrums and the constant aches and pains and walks being a torture that I dreaded every evening.
But both dogs have changed my life for the better, taught me so much and helped expose me to great people and amazing experiences. We got there in the end.

Use a tool If you have to, lose your rag occasionally (but don't be unfair on the dog), you can do this (if of course you want to...and he's still with you )

Did they ever get to walk on the lead nicely?

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yes. Current one still has his moments when he'd like to get to the park quicker than I would but when he realises it's not going to get him anywhere, he wises up. Dogs only do things that are (in their perception) in their own best interests and will improve their own position. Therefore pulling = standing still or going in the opposite direction. Rubbish.
He's not good when other dogs get up in his face therefore I changed the association, if we see another dog coming I allow him to carry his ball so he thinks another dog coming is a great thing.

 

[Pattie]

Yes. Current one still has his moments when he'd like to get to the park quicker than I would but when he realises it's not going to get him anywhere, he wises up. Dogs only do things that are (in their perception) in their own best interests and will improve their own position. Therefore pulling = standing still or going in the opposite direction. Rubbish.
He's not good when other dogs get up in his face therefore I changed the association, if we see another dog coming I allow him to carry his ball so he thinks another dog coming is a great thing.

I tried taking a toy on the walk, he wasn't interested in it ,despite my manic attempts to play with him with it. I stop and make him give eye contact or sit when he pulls when we set off, he pulls harder. He can walk lovely, then we have a nice walk. He's lovely most of the time in the house, just a nut job most of the time outside. I tried giving him a lot of treats when we meet another dog, again, not really interested and I'm giving him treats whilst fighting against his pulling. Going to get a Halti now, it's Halti or bust for this dog!

 

[CorvusCorax]

If he's not hungry the treats won't matter to him. As it says in the article, figure out what his drives are and go from there. Obviously if his drive to mill another dog outweighs all else, then you don't indulge that

Did you look into any of the sports or activities suggested? As it really does sound like you both need some sort of an outlet.

 

[ponyparty]

Take him with you to get the halti - try it on him in the shop, and try on a figure of 8 lead as well, I'm sure an assistant would help you (they're easy once you know how!). Try any other brands of similar product on him. See which he takes to the best. I had a halti for a previous dog and she never stopped trying to get it off. I tried a halti on my current dog and he hated it - but accepted to figure of 8 almost immediately. Just don't want you to limit yourself to one product and then get disheartened when your dog fights it, they're not all the same and different tools work for different dogs (same as horses!). Good luck!

 

[splashgirl45]

Take him with you to get the halti - try it on him in the shop, and try on a figure of 8 lead as well, I'm sure an assistant would help you (they're easy once you know how!). Try any other brands of similar product on him. See which he takes to the best. I had a halti for a previous dog and she never stopped trying to get it off. I tried a halti on my current dog and he hated it - but accepted to figure of 8 almost immediately. Just don't want you to limit yourself to one product and then get disheartened when your dog fights it, they're not all the same and different tools work for different dogs (same as horses!). Good luck!

agree with this, a friend of mine has a very strong excitable hound and both her and her husband could hardly hold him in a normal collar but they tried a figure of 8 and they can take him for a walk and have fingertip control, dont know why they work but they do...

 

[BallyJ]

Hi Pattie,

I'm no where near a professional, but do have a 2yr old Terrier who REFUSES to learn heal (3 dog trainers all refused a second session) she barks at passing dogs, is ok (ish) at recall and snappy at home, but i adore her!
She isn't allowed to get away with anything - she is allowed on the sofa when invited but only in the last year! A figure of 8 lead is indispensable it has meant i can take her to the local country shows! she's a different dog in it! - Just make sure they don't get out of it


--- If anyone has on tips on heal for a JRT please let me know, tried;

- Stopping & calling her back
- stopping and ignoring her until she comes back
- Slip lead with the 'pull and release' method
- turning sharply when she pulls
- A Harness (she literally walked on her hind legs)

 

[Pattie]

Hi Pattie,

I'm no where near a professional, but do have a 2yr old Terrier who REFUSES to learn heal (3 dog trainers all refused a second session) she barks at passing dogs, is ok (ish) at recall and snappy at home, but i adore her!
She isn't allowed to get away with anything - she is allowed on the sofa when invited but only in the last year! A figure of 8 lead is indispensable it has meant i can take her to the local country shows! she's a different dog in it! - Just make sure they don't get out of it


--- If anyone has on tips on heal for a JRT please let me know, tried;

- Stopping & calling her back
- stopping and ignoring her until she comes back
- Slip lead with the 'pull and release' method
- turning sharply when she pulls
- A Harness (she literally walked on her hind legs)

Oh dear, she is on a par or not as well behaved. My dog did snap when we first got him, he seems ok now, but I don't take anything for granted. The worst thing which we can't even address yet, is the fact that he will run off so we cannot let him off the lead. All garden gates have to be closed, dog put in another room if going out of the front or back without him as he will bolt for the door and run. We are looking into to putting up porches, but we need planning permission so it will take some time. My dog just goes flat to the floor on a harness, or I have to have the lead very short which is when I find it difficult.

 

[Pattie]

Knew we had a Halti somewhere, we've recently moved, couldn't find it for weeks. Looked for it again this morning,nowhere. Bought a Halti, they were great with him at the shop. Came to let him out of his cage when I got back and saw something under the passenger seat, yes, said missing Halti. Life eh!

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

--- If anyone has on tips on heal for a JRT please let me know, tried;

- Stopping & calling her back
- stopping and ignoring her until she comes back
- Slip lead with the 'pull and release' method
- turning sharply when she pulls
- A Harness (she literally walked on her hind legs)

I'll add a tip, and I'm being serious; Accept that you have a dog which will not have its mindset changed.

I 'have' (just to see if I could!) had a terrier walking to heel off-lead, but it never lasted because it was never going to!

Alec.

 

[BallyJ]

I'll add a tip, and I'm being serious; Accept that you have a dog which will not have its mindset changed.

I 'have' (just to see if I could!) had a terrier walking to heel off-lead, but it never lasted because it was never going to!

Alec.

I accepted this the day I got her! she's a stroppy, loving and adores me (almost as much as i her) and i find that the most rewarding thing about them, they're loyal!

We have a Lab that will wander next to you all day & night if required, but she would do this for anyone who asked where as the JRT has 2 or 3 family members she counts as worthy of her time, everyone else may as well not be there!

 

[Pattie]

I accepted this the day I got her! she's a stroppy, loving and adores me (almost as much as i her) and i find that the most rewarding thing about them, they're loyal!

We have a Lab that will wander next to you all day & night if required, but she would do this for anyone who asked where as the JRT has 2 or 3 family members she counts as worthy of her time, everyone else may as well not be there!

My dog is not loyal to me. He tolerates me.

 

[Alec Swan]

I tried taking a toy on the walk, he wasn't interested in it ,despite my manic attempts to play with him with it. ……..

My dog is not loyal to me. He tolerates me.

And for as long as you try to gain his approval by 'manic-playing', whilst attempting to instil discipline; for as long as you continue to send him opposing and mixed messages, so he will continue to see you as an irrelevance.

I was starting to think that you were making progress, but now I'm not so sure. I think that the basic mindset of your dog seems to be passing by you. Sorry Pattie, but that's how it is.

Alec.

 

[Pattie]

And for as long as you try to gain his approval by 'manic-playing', whilst attempting to instil discipline; for as long as you continue to send him opposing and mixed messages, so he will continue to see you as an irrelevance.

I was starting to think that you were making progress, but now I'm not so sure. I think that the basic mindset of your dog seems to be passing by you. Sorry Pattie, but that's how it is.

Alec.

Don't be so superior, I tried that when I first had him as everybody is giving me advice, some of which I know does not work with him. Like treats won't work with him if he's hungry, who knew!

 

[blackcob]

I tried taking a toy on the walk, he wasn't interested in it ,despite my manic attempts to play with him with it.

This was me, a few years ago now, tearing my hair out over a dog I should never have had. I took advice from here (including CC's! ) and was doing all the right things but still it seemed an insurmountable task with an impossible sodding dog who would never listen to me, who used to pull my arms out, fly like a kite on the end of the lead and be distracted by anything and everything but me. We'd make a tiny bit of progress in the house, focusing on a treat or toy, but it went out of the window the second we went out. She also had severe, destructive separation anxiety and therefore had almost nothing going for her as a pet. I despaired, I cried, more than once I picked up the phone to ask if I could take her back and was seconds from dialling the number.

I loathe and detest Haltis but did resort to one for several months just to make her physically manageable.

Nearly eight years later (gawd where did that time go?) she is absolutely indescribably the best dog, my best friend and an absolute ambassador for her breed. It WILL come together, it is NOT impossible. I am not going to lie, it was bloody hard work and I would not judge anybody who decided that modifying their lifestyle to accommodate a bloody-minded, non-obedient type of dog was not for them and bowed out by going back to rescue. I just wanted to say that you are doing all the right things and it is absolutely possible to manage breed traits in a positive way. You are not alone in this!

 

[Alec Swan]

Don't be so superior, …….. !

It isn't a case of being superior but of having been where you are now. It can be a trifle frustrating when advice is sought, well established and experienced bods offer their thoughts which are mostly grounded on the one thing which you lack, experience, and then promptly ignored!

Had you not wanted to listen, why didn't you say that from the outset? I'd have done what I'm going to do now, withdraw.

Alec.

 

[Pattie]

It isn't a case of being superior but of having been where you are now. It can be a trifle frustrating when advice is sought, well established and experienced bods offer their thoughts which are mostly grounded on the one thing which you lack, experience, and then promptly ignored!

Had you not wanted to listen, why didn't you say that from the outset? I'd have done what I'm going to do now, withdraw.

Alec.

I'm not bothered, I am listening and I've been given some good advice from posters who understand that it's difficult and are more supportive.

 

[Pattie]

This was me, a few years ago now, tearing my hair out over a dog I should never have had. I took advice from here (including CC's! ) and was doing all the right things but still it seemed an insurmountable task with an impossible sodding dog who would never listen to me, who used to pull my arms out, fly like a kite on the end of the lead and be distracted by anything and everything but me. We'd make a tiny bit of progress in the house, focusing on a treat or toy, but it went out of the window the second we went out. She also had severe, destructive separation anxiety and therefore had almost nothing going for her as a pet. I despaired, I cried, more than once I picked up the phone to ask if I could take her back and was seconds from dialling the number.

I loathe and detest Haltis but did resort to one for several months just to make her physically manageable.

Nearly eight years later (gawd where did that time go?) she is absolutely indescribably the best dog, my best friend and an absolute ambassador for her breed. It WILL come together, it is NOT impossible. I am not going to lie, it was bloody hard work and I would not judge anybody who decided that modifying their lifestyle to accommodate a bloody-minded, non-obedient type of dog was not for them and bowed out by going back to rescue. I just wanted to say that you are doing all the right things and it is absolutely possible to manage breed traits in a positive way. You are not alone in this!

Thank you for your post and words of encouragement.
It's great that you managed to train your dog. We are lucky, that we have been able to leave him and he has always gone in a crate in the car without a fuss. He also is, for the most part, house trained.

 

[Pattie]

Take him with you to get the halti - try it on him in the shop, and try on a figure of 8 lead as well, I'm sure an assistant would help you (they're easy once you know how!). Try any other brands of similar product on him. See which he takes to the best. I had a halti for a previous dog and she never stopped trying to get it off. I tried a halti on my current dog and he hated it - but accepted to figure of 8 almost immediately. Just don't want you to limit yourself to one product and then get disheartened when your dog fights it, they're not all the same and different tools work for different dogs (same as horses!). Good luck!

Thanks. He was both calm and trying to get the Halti off in the shop. I'll see how he gets on on his first walk. Good idea about trying other things though.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Well you're not getting rid of me that easily lol
You probably can't see the positives yet as you are so close to the situation, but they're there.

Both BC and I were pretty normal when we first started coming on here

 

[Pattie]

Well you're not getting rid of me that easily lol
You probably can't see the positives yet as you are so close to the situation, but they're there.

Both BC and I were pretty normal when we first started coming on here

I'm not trying to get rid of anyone - honest. I appreciate everyone's advice. Some of it directly opposed to other bits. So I have to take on board what works. Which by the way is precisely nothing yet - on walks at least. He's lovely most of the time inside.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'm only ever bouncing out lots of ideas and what I would do in your situation. This is a forum and you are free to take on board or completely disregard anything anyone says. Like BC when we all told her not to get a husky

As with everything, take on board and use things which you think will help your individual dog!

 

[Pattie]

I'm only ever bouncing out lots of ideas and what I would do in your situation. This is a forum and you are free to take on board or completely disregard anything anyone says. Like BC when we all told her not to get a husky

As with everything, take on board and use things which you think will help your individual dog!

And I do appreciate it. As I said some people say do a thing and someone else says never do that thing. I can't follow both pieces of advice, so I try both and see what works. I'm no sued to a dog like this, he is a nightmare at times. \like just now on the walk, a loose dog, never seen him before but he's always getting out apparently, I go out with my dog and he goes ape. So the loose dog comes running up to us and follows us. My dog is going ape and making the situation worse. I just don't know what to do with him when he's barking at dogs. I'm trying what the trainer said, not working!! Heeelp!

 

[blackcob]

FWIW, the things that worked for us:

Dog sports/activities/breed appropriate exercise outlet - knackering out the body so we could eventually work on knackering out the mind was a pivotal moment. Agility is one of the most accessible and inclusive, and addictive. Dog sports organisations are full of similar-minded nutte... I mean, people, who have probably been where you are with their first dog, are full of advice, are another set of eyes for troubleshooting where things might be going wrong and are usually happy to accommodate less than perfect dogs as long as you're seen to be learning and trying your best.

Finding a good trainer who was happy to work with 'quirky' dogs. We would have been chucked out of the typical village hall arrangement but benefited hugely from recall workshops held outside, in small groups with plenty of space and one-to-one time. Did someone mention Craig Ogilvie upthread? His interactive play workshops are another good example. It took a bit of shopping around and dodging the yank 'n crank types before we found trainers that worked for us.

The books I read most during that time were The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt.

Both BC and I were pretty normal when we first started coming on here

Your definition of normal must be quite broad.