HHO'rs horse on Rockley Blog?

brucea said:
You learn pretty quick that questioning the "accepted treatments" is met with ridicule, obfuscation and hostility by those with a vested interest in perpetuating them, however ineffective they are.
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This is the really hard part for owners stuck in the middle but in defense of vets and traditional HCPs they believe what they are taught is the best way to approach these problems. We all argue for what we believe and think we are doing what's best for horses.

Imho, changes have got to come in the training of professionals along with a culture of questioning and openness. I wont bang on about the medical model v an holistic horse centred model. lol
 
Polonaise said:
Chin up TMH26, us vets can be a pretty intimidating lot when we think we're right and your wrong! In our defence we always have the best interests of our patients at heart, even if sometimes we're a little misguided. I've seen remedial shoeing and traditional medicine appear to work on many of these horses including my own. It took me the shear desperation of an owner faced with retiring/pts my own horse when "normal" methods started to fail to make me do enough research to realise the sense behind Rockley.
Can't wait to see how things progress with Dylans feet, don't know about you but I'm pretty excited to have started a treatment that offers the possibility of a good long term prognosis rather then just trying to keep them going for a bit longer.
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Complicated by the fact that there are some talented farriers out there who CAN make the more "traditional" options work and, of course, horses that are tough/lucky enough to stay very sound with very little intervention. So a vet may have seen "many" cases that did work, without fully understanding the whys and wherefores. It often takes a crisis - a failure of the accepted system - to make anyone heavily invested in a system question it. I also think it's different seeing something every day, day in, day out, and seeing it once and awhile for a few minutes, always with an agenda.

Which is not to bash vets. Quite the opposite. Vets do what they are trained to do and think is best, They know lots of things owners don't. But owners have to be mangers/advocates for their horses, encouraging teamwork and collective thinking, not just passive consumers. I know this is hard to do but then it is lives we're dealing with. (People often forget, too, that high end sport horses have all sorts of "support staff" heavily invested in their care so very few decisions are made in isolation. I hate to say it, too, but I think many vets respect "good" riders' input more, or maybe those riders stick to their guns. The single horse owner has to be ALL those people rolled into one. . .tough to do, especially in the face of conventional wisdom.)
 
TarrSteps said:
So a vet may have seen "many" cases that did work, without fully understanding the whys and wherefores.
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The problem is that a lot of people will have seen the words prognosis "poor" or "guarded" on their horses diagnosis which suggests that vets know only too well that traditional methods do not work in many cases.

I'm not vet bashing, I think they are trying to do the best with the tools they have at hand but they will be the first to admit that these tools are often not effective.

The statistics I have seen bear this out with 10 - 20% returning to full work depending on the pathologies.

Mine had the a farrier that is reputedly one of the best, the one that the other local farriers look up to but his best efforts couldn't keep my horse even in light hacking.

When I suggested Rockley they both admitted that it couldn't hurt and there was nothing else they could offer though they did warn me not to get my hopes up.

I had two sound years till the stupid animal decided to permanently injure his shoulder.
 
"I hate to say it, too, but I think many vets respect "good" riders' input more, or maybe those riders stick to their guns."

I don't think I necessarily respect "good" riders more, (quite the opposite in some cases!) but often a more experienced team will be able to give a better history, in cases were "he's not quite right" I often wont be able to see anything and doing lots of tests in the vague hope of stiking lucky is likely to be expensive and frustrating. An experienced/advanced team is more likely to be able to pinpoint exactly what is "not quite right" giving me more to go on. For example a mild hock issue may present in a happy hacker as "laziness" but in a dressage horse may present as a sudden unwillingness to strike off on a particular lead. Assuming initial examination is unremarkable the first will be subjected to changes of diet, bloods, weight loss and possibly an assumption that owner is expecting too much, the second would hopefully immediately have his hindlimbs/back evaluated thoroughly.

Opps went a little off topic just sometimes think trying to explain what we're thinking may lead to less "vet bashing" and more cooperation.
 
in years past we'd turn horses away for a whole season and let them decompress in the field if they had niggling injuries or problems. Often the "spontaneous remission" brought about by "benign neglect" was the best thing we could do for them.

A lot of things get better if just left to their own devices in a supportive environment (with pain relief where needed). Same for us too. Often the interventions serve just to perpetuate the problems.
 
Polonaise said:
"I hate to say it, too, but I think many vets respect "good" riders' input more, or maybe those riders stick to their guns."

I don't think I necessarily respect "good" riders more, (quite the opposite in some cases!) but often a more experienced team will be able to give a better history, in cases were "he's not quite right" I often wont be able to see anything and doing lots of tests in the vague hope of stiking lucky is likely to be expensive and frustrating. An experienced/advanced team is more likely to be able to pinpoint exactly what is "not quite right" giving me more to go on. For example a mild hock issue may present in a happy hacker as "laziness" but in a dressage horse may present as a sudden unwillingness to strike off on a particular lead. Assuming initial examination is unremarkable the first will be subjected to changes of diet, bloods, weight loss and possibly an assumption that owner is expecting too much, the second would hopefully immediately have his hindlimbs/back evaluated thoroughly.

Opps went a little off topic just sometimes think trying to explain what we're thinking may lead to less "vet bashing" and more cooperation.
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I guess I mean somewhat the same thing. A very experienced owner/team might be able to provide the vet with nuances and specifics of information a less experienced owner would struggle to asses.

But I've also been privy to many conversations where the owner/regular rider's input has been dismissed and even flatly contradicted. I've seen more than one vet say to less experienced owners that a horse is basically malingering, if only because they can't/won't reproduce the most telling situation. I rode one for a vet recently that felt HIDEOUS in canter. The vet had already told the owner to ride through the behaviour, it was simply that she was not strict enough. When I rode the horse for him and explained exactly how it felt, no matter how strongly it was ridden, the next stop was a full work up. Problems were found, sorted, and horse improved substantially right away. I've seen and experienced a number of similar situations. Tbf, I expect vets to respect my professional knowledge, just as I respect theirs so maybe that's what sometimes makes the difference. We may not even always agree where our knowledge intersects but I see 'fixing' the horse as a team effort, perhaps because that's usually how it's been in my previous experiences.

Again, not bashing. In fact I'm probably agreeing with you! Another rider's input significantly changed the immediate course of action. So all I'm saying to people who are feeling unsure about a course of action is maybe it's an option to bring in other opinions not in an adversarial way, but with a collaborative goal.
 
Just to say that had I taken my vets advice my boy would have been de nerved by now - thank goodness I decided to do lot of research and when presented with this (and a well timed phone call to Nic whilst the vet was standing there) he reluctantly agreed that it wouldn't hurt him to try barefoot & off he went to Rockley - Admittedly our progress has been hampered by finding that he also had kissing spine, but so far we haven't looked back!
OP you will get lots of support from all the other rehabs and of course from Nic, who is marvellous and will answer all the daft questions that you might have!!
Good luck & I look forward to reading the updates on the blog & maybe seeing you at RRR next year!!
 
Hooves with contracted heels, long toes and under-run heels don't get like that overnight. At some point they would have been obviously heading in that direction. Why the hell didn't the Farrier (who is supposedly a hoof care professional, after all) do something then, before it got to the point of a lame horse with really deformed hooves? If the Farrier couldn't cope with that particular horse, why didn't they say so to the owner?


I'm also getting fed up with the fact that our Vets have such out of date training RE hoof health. For flips sake, this problem (shoes detrimentally changing hoof shape and causing lameness) was pointed out approximately 200 years ago!

... they have uttered their absurd Dogmas with all the confidence of well-ascertained truths and afterwards, though plainly confuted, have persisted through pride in maintaining them... and what is worse, when the truth in clearest evidence lay before them, instead of embracing it joyfully, they have tried in every way to stifle her.
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Remedial shoeing (what an oxymoron) has such a poor chance of working compared to a BF rehab, I long for the day when it becomes normal for Vets to recommend the rehab.

Plus owners need to get educated. I'm still cross that I was ignorant about hooves for many years and just handed over their care to Farriers. I was an idiot, as things stand, you cannot do this. You have to learn all you can, so that you can be your horse's advocate.

Also, Vets, if you saw a horse with hooves like this or on the way to becoming like this, what would you do? Would you mention it to the owner at all?

ETA, the quote is from Bracy Clark and shows his despair at the response to his research into hooves and shoeing.
 
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Part of the issue was and please don't get me wrong here - this horse has always had weak feet and a penchant for over reaching - I sent him out on loan for a year where he was shod by someone else in this time - he came back last summer and then went lame early part of this year. I suspect they are linked but equally by taking the foot back too hard would have left me and him in an equally precarious situation
 
TMH26 - please don't think that I was having a go at you, it really was me venting my frustration at the current situation.

Now I know more, over-reaching is a red flag to me, that the breakover could be delayed due to long toes. TB's (particularly ex racers) have such a rough deal. Shod continuously from a young age and the 'typical TB feet' myth to contend with, so people almost expect them to have poor hooves. I agree that hacking the toes off isn't the answer, but imagine if horses like him had BF rehabs when their hooves were only 10% as bad.

ETA - I have PM'd you TMH26. :)
 
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I would totally agree - I picked him up and he over reached on the walk on the way home - I was leading him at the time. I had totally bought into the TB feet thing and even though he has got better in the 6 years I have owned him - part of the over reaching was a ridiculous big movement on a relatively weak big horse - he honestly felt sometimes that he had no idea where all four legs were. His feet have been long than this in the past with a previous farrier (who I then gort rid of for hitting him with a rasp) I just hope that he continues has he seems to be doing in his first week and breaks that TB feet myth :)
 
WOW look at them feet, I'm another who is going to watch his progress with great interest. Hopefully he will also teach the vet and farrier something along the way, we can hope :)
 
thatsmygirl said:
Do u have to have a rockley rehab to go on their RRR? I would love to meet some of you and look at your horses feet. I would be in my element.
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For a horse and rider, I believe the first spaces are offered to Rockley Rehabs - but Nic has been generous enough to welcome non Rockley horses in the past (when there are spaces).

If it's non ridden and someone just wants come down to say hello and have a chat - I fairly sure Nic would be happy to oblige (if the pre-requisite cake is brought ;))

I'd like to make it next year (if I'm welcome ;)) as Nic was kind enough to invite me in the past but work and finances have never allowed so far :(.
 
TarrSteps, wise words as usual! I find people tend to assume that a) I can't possibly have been into horses before moving here, as horses clearly don't exist outside the UK, or b) that being a hard-core barefooter means that I'm some sort of horsey hippie...I daren't mention in this country that Strasser had dinner with my parents (on account of her husband's being my father's colleague) with reasonable frequency when I was small... :o So I come by the barefoot thing honestly, and from a scientific rather than a hippie background!
 
spookypony said:
TarrSteps, wise words as usual! I find people tend to assume that a) I can't possibly have been into horses before moving here, as horses clearly don't exist outside the UK,
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That made me laugh. :)

It is true, though. One of the things that proves to me "conventional wisdom" isn't hard and fast is that it's not the same wherever you go! We used to regularly pull shoes all winter on event horses and leave them in work. I know that CIRCUMSTANCES often don't allow that here - people don't have suitable surfaces etc - but it's hardly impossible as I know literally hundreds of horses who have coped just fine.

When I tell people I know owners who do their own trimming and I knew people in my youth who even shod their own . . . well, I must be lying! I'm not saying it was always a good thing but on the other hand it wasn't always a disaster either.

It did take me awhile to figure out why laminitis and similar metabolic disorders I have previously hardly seen are so common here but once I understood it made sense why things can't always be done the same way as in other parts of the world. But it's the UNDERSTANDING that allows better decision making.

It's interesting talking to vets who have trained and practiced elsewhere - they do not always see things the same way as UK trained vets. (Gross generalisation but a theme I've seen multiple times now.) I've also had them admit to me they know what they *have* to say here but they would not necessarily say the same "at home". I infect have a foreign vet precisely because I find she has an inherited view of horses and management that is similar to my own. (This is not to say I don't know many great British vets, just that I find it a bit easier, given the option.)

So many of the things people accept as hard and fast rules simply aren't. The trick it to know what the options are and to pick the best one available, which, unfortunately, might not always be the best one, period.
 
The best vet my practice had was Spanish. She came to practise in this country because she was unhappy about how horses in Spain were managed.

I understand too that other countries do not have the same fixation on box rest as the UK either.
 
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thatsmygirl said:
Do u have to have a rockley rehab to go on their RRR? I would love to meet some of you and look at your horses feet. I would be in my element.
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Although ex Rockley horses are given priority if there are spaces sometimes come along Not sure about this year as I couldn't make it but last year a couple of keen barefooters came along, one who had been unable to send her horse to Rockley but had rehabbed him at home and a friend from the same yard whose horse was barefoot.
 
TarrSteps said:
That made me laugh. :)

It is true, though. One of the things that proves to me "conventional wisdom" isn't hard and fast is that it's not the same wherever you go! We used to regularly pull shoes all winter on event horses and leave them in work. I know that CIRCUMSTANCES often don't allow that here - people don't have suitable surfaces etc - but it's hardly impossible as I know literally hundreds of horses who have coped just fine.

When I tell people I know owners who do their own trimming and I knew people in my youth who even shod their own . . . well, I must be lying! I'm not saying it was always a good thing but on the other hand it wasn't always a disaster either.

It did take me awhile to figure out why laminitis and similar metabolic disorders I have previously hardly seen are so common here but once I understood it made sense why things can't always be done the same way as in other parts of the world. But it's the UNDERSTANDING that allows better decision making.

It's interesting talking to vets who have trained and practiced elsewhere - they do not always see things the same way as UK trained vets. (Gross generalisation but a theme I've seen multiple times now.) I've also had them admit to me they know what they *have* to say here but they would not necessarily say the same "at home". I infect have a foreign vet precisely because I find she has an inherited view of horses and management that is similar to my own. (This is not to say I don't know many great British vets, just that I find it a bit easier, given the option.)

So many of the things people accept as hard and fast rules simply aren't. The trick it to know what the options are and to pick the best one available, which, unfortunately, might not always be the best one, period.
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I sill know lots of people that trim their own...for some, it works fine, and for others, I sometimes think that they possibly should consult with someone that has training. To be fair, these trims don't look any worse than what I see many of the farriers doing around here!

I know what you mean about certain illnesses. I thought laminitis is what ponies get that break out of their stalls, into the feed room, and polish off all the sweet feed in one night. I also remember walking them for hours on end when that happened, to try to prevent a full-blown attack...not totally sure now what the vet's reasoning was then. It certainly was rare!

It took me a wee while to understand how tricky the management of bare hooves can be in this muddy country, when we then expect them to perform on stony granite tracks, but with a bit of thought, it can work just fine.

polonaise sounds like an awesome vet! What I find hard to understand is the shuttered attitude I see from many vets in this area. They're so set in their ideas that they don't even want to look at any evidence. But time will probably tell! :)
 
I am also outside of Maidstone with a little barefoot herd. So many times I have been asked when I'm going to put shoes on my youngsters and my reply of "never" is always met with a variety of negative comments. Luckily I have a great farrier - pm me if you want his name
 
thatsmygirl said:
Do u have to have a rockley rehab to go on their RRR? I would love to meet some of you and look at your horses feet. I would be in my element.
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Oberon said:
For a horse and rider, I believe the first spaces are offered to Rockley Rehabs - but Nic has been generous enough to welcome non Rockley horses in the past (when there are spaces).

If it's non ridden and someone just wants come down to say hello and have a chat - I fairly sure Nic would be happy to oblige (if the pre-requisite cake is brought ;))

I'd like to make it next year (if I'm welcome ;)) as Nic was kind enough to invite me in the past but work and finances have never allowed so far :(.
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Keep an eye on the Rockley blog as we are just starting to plan RRR14.

In the past there have been a few non rockley rehabs along the way and friendly people who are interested are more than welcome to join us. However, the rehabs get priority and I've got a sneaky feeling that the reunion will get bigger and bigger every year as more horses go through so I would expect we will have around 20-25 horses and 30-35 people next year (eeeek!). But do get in touch when the info is released as it was such a hugely uplifting weekend for everyone :D
 
A little update - the boy is back :) I picked him and his new feet up yesterday and after a slightly long drive home he is safely esconded in his field - just to say thank you to all the people who have commented and pm'd m - your words have been very much appreciated xxx
 
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