HHO's "Bear" project pony...

[Michen]

Liver disease can also effect protein metabolism in a whole host of ways and also fatty acid absorption which would in turn also effect the hoof (although my knowledge is mainly human based). Might be worth laying it all out for the vet like that? It does sound systemic to me.

I have to say, now that I think about it properly the onset of the excessive drinking and the subsequently diagnosed liver issues definitely coincided with the decline of his feet. He was barefoot I think March last year for a few months and did fine although I did eventually shoe him as he was starting autumn hunting soon ish and the feet weren't quite keeping up growth wise. Started struggling to keep shoes on October time, poor horn quality. By the following feb/march he was not quite right and then diagnostics etc started. His hind feet had bullnosed and he actually had a negative palmer angle (which was corrected, through x rays before and after, with a trim). I took the shoes off in June and we've barely had any growth ever since. His fronts do have *some*- there is a new angle coming down, but no where near what you'd expect. I can't say I can see much of a new angle in the hinds tbh.

He's never been fed much or anything in the way of hard feed and I wonder whether some good quality protein would be beneficial.

 

[Cloball]

A high protein diet might help but it would suggest he had a worse degree of chronic liver damage how much would be difficult to know without another biopsy.

 

[Michen]

A high protein diet might help but it would suggest he had a worse degree of chronic liver damage how much would be difficult to know without another biopsy.

We were intending to biopsy again this week but I'm not sure what point there is. Vet mentioned steroids as another treatment option but that he wasn't keen on the idea.

 

[HelenBack]

I just had a very quick look online and some of the information on vets' websites says that horses with Cushing's can develop liver problems and / or have raised liver enzymes. Increased peeing is definitely a symptom of Cushing's but obviously could be other things as well.

I hope you get some answers as it sounds very frustrating for you. If it was Cushing's it would be a bit of a PITA in a young horse but hopefully at least easily manageable for a good long while with Prascend.

 

[Cloball]

I suppose it would, for me, to see how much chronic damage there was compared to the previous. If it is the same or better then it might not explain the whole picture. If it's worse how much worse? I suppose with the liver/ hind gut/ protein metabolism it becomes a bit chicken and egg.

 

[Michen]

Yep true. He's definitely not fat though, in fact he has come back looking brill having been on a bare paddock with hay supplemented. Shiny coat etc.

Arghhhhhhhhhh!!!!

I could spend another grand on this and get no further forward. It sounds horrible but I almost wish there was something worse wrong as it would then make it easier to just have him PTS. As it is we are just in this limbo of lots of bad things but nothing THAT bad.

 

[HelenBack]

Was the fat comment in relation to Cushing's or the liver damage comments? If the Cushing's then lots of Cushing's horses aren't fat and some struggle to maintain weight. Mine used to be on conditioning mix when I was competing him and before we got the diagnosis and would still sometimes look a bit poor.

I do feel for you and it must be so much more frustrating when he was meant to be a project to bring on and never a permanent part of your life. I think it's natural to have the thoughts around PTS when there's lots going on but it must be harder to decide where to draw the line when it's your second horse and not your main man. Is it worth having a very practical conversation with the vet about options and when to say you've tried everything you can without bankrupting yourself and having a nervous breakdown in the process?

 

[nutjob]

I had a horse many years ago who developed a severe liver issue. He started a weird headshaking, standing strangely with a back leg raised sticking out backwards arching his back and then really shaking his head violently. He was given steroids initially as it was thought to be some sort of pollen allergy, it did help but then he lost weight and became dull and lethargic at which point he was blood tested which showed it was the liver. There was never any cause identified and my other horse was fine. He made a full recovery after 3 weeks on some sort of tonic from the vet (ingredients unknown) and never relapsed. I changed hay for marksway horsehage in case it was something random in the hay and gave him B group vitamins and vit C, there was limited info and supplements around at the time. I discussed a liver biopsy but at that time it wasn’t going to make any difference to the treatment or outcome and there was a concern that depending on where the sample came from it might not be representative. Before paying for it I would check it will tell you something useful.
If you are feeding mycosorb is there a chance that it can absorb some essential micronutrients as well as the toxins which could impact the feet, how specific is it?
Looking positively my horse was far worse than yours and he lived another 8 years symptom free before he had a heart attack.

 

[AandK]

Sorry you're having issues with Bear, it's such a nightmare when it's not an obvious cause. I would agree with the other posters who say it sounds systemic.
Not quite the same but similar ish, my 8yo TB wasn't looking as good as he should have last year despite lots of grass and feed. He had a lameness issue late summer, but that was in front and turned out to be a keratoma which he had removed under GA in November last year. After the op, I was throwing huge amounts of feed at him and again, he was not thriving like he should. So I did a bit of reading and decided to do a sort of full body detox, which I got from EquiNatural (I get minerals and yea-sacc from them). My thinking was, that he had been through a lot since I got him in March 19. In the September he had an arthroscopy for a hock injury, 48hrs after coming home he had to go back into the hospital with a very badly impacted caecum. He also suffered nerve damage to his tail after the op and was not able to eat hay until he could lift his tail again, which took a few months. In June last year he cut his leg which required more antibiotics, and then the op for the keratoma in the Nov of last year. I think his system/gut/liver had been stressed by all this and meant his body was not able to absorb what he needed from his food. I did the detox in Jan/Feb this year and I do believe it has helped him. He has looked in great condition since, with a lot less food than he has ever had. He also has a supplement with milk thistle/marshmallow/yea-sacc as ongoing support.
I think in your shoes I would be trying something similar, or going down the Equibiome route. I hope you can get him back to his old self soon.

 

[Michen]

Was the fat comment in relation to Cushing's or the liver damage comments? If the Cushing's then lots of Cushing's horses aren't fat and some struggle to maintain weight. Mine used to be on conditioning mix when I was competing him and before we got the diagnosis and would still sometimes look a bit poor.

I do feel for you and it must be so much more frustrating when he was meant to be a project to bring on and never a permanent part of your life. I think it's natural to have the thoughts around PTS when there's lots going on but it must be harder to decide where to draw the line when it's your second horse and not your main man. Is it worth having a very practical conversation with the vet about options and when to say you've tried everything you can without bankrupting yourself and having a nervous breakdown in the process?

The cushings really!

Thanks, I sort of did yesterday but we sort of laughed because we both know that lots of people wouldn't think there was anything wrong- so it would seem mad to even consider it- If I stuck some shoes on him and got him back in work I honestly think he'd be so easily sellable.

- Lameness is almost not visible, he's probably still sounder than most horses.
- Feet if they were shod you'd just think oh not great feet but never mind- how many horses do we know going around with those!
- Drinking would go completely unnoticed if we had auto drinkers

And he looks lovely. Shiny, healthy, bright.

But, I can't ignore what I know, so a moot point.

 

[tristar]

I have to say, now that I think about it properly the onset of the excessive drinking and the subsequently diagnosed liver issues definitely coincided with the decline of his feet. He was barefoot I think March last year for a few months and did fine although I did eventually shoe him as he was starting autumn hunting soon ish and the feet weren't quite keeping up growth wise. Started struggling to keep shoes on October time, poor horn quality. By the following feb/march he was not quite right and then diagnostics etc started. His hind feet had bullnosed and he actually had a negative palmer angle (which was corrected, through x rays before and after, with a trim). I took the shoes off in June and we've barely had any growth ever since. His fronts do have *some*- there is a new angle coming down, but no where near what you'd expect. I can't say I can see much of a new angle in the hinds tbh.

He's never been fed much or anything in the way of hard feed and I wonder whether some good quality protein would be beneficial.

does he ever have a broad spectrum vit min supplement?

some horses i have had benefited greatly from seleneviteE supplement, and ok i do know it has iron in it, but, have seen remarkable changes in a short period, in fact all ours are on it now with fast fibre and oats, and my god they are all firing at full blast, i do sometimes give them a break from it for a few weeks

some horses really do need more than hay and grass, sometimes you need to just tip the balance of the system it can be very subtle yet give dramatic results

 

[Michen]

does he ever have a broad spectrum vit min supplement?

some horses i have had benefited greatly from seleneviteE supplement, and ok i do know it has iron in it, but, have seen remarkable changes in a short period, in fact all ours are on it now with fast fibre and oats, and my god they are all firing at full blast, i do sometimes give them a break from it for a few weeks

some horses really do need more than hay and grass, sometimes you need to just tip the balance of the system it can be very subtle yet give dramatic results

sorry yes he’s always had something. Ranged from equimins to spillers lite to pro hoof over the last year or so

 

[HelenBack]

But, I can't ignore what I know, so a moot point.

And you're clearly a very conscientious owner who will go much farther for her horses than many people would. I know I would be doing the same in your position but it does make it much harder for you sadly. I do think you're doing the right thing though, lots of people would sell him on and hopefully he would be fine but if it did all unravel down the line he might not have somebody as kind as you are to look out for him.

 

[tristar]

sorry yes he’s always had something. Ranged from equimins to spillers lite to pro hoof over the last year or so

i`m so sorry you and him are going through all this.

i must say i`ve tried all sorts over the years some cost a fortune and never gave the results of sel e and fast fibre which has a gut supplement as well

 

[LEC]

I had a horse who just looked rubbish last year - kept having allergic reactions, chronic UV in her eyes which we were panicking about that we wouldn't be able to manage and would mean PTS, looked a bit rubbish but nothing really off, wasn't quite sound. We discussed doing the Equibiome test but the science was poor behind it so decided to spend £30 on a the science supplements gut balancer instead as had nothing to lose. It has completely changed the horse. This year she is almost too fat and has never been a fat horse. She looks amazing.

I like the look of Richard Maxwell one as well but it was very expensive. I am a big convert to getting the gut right.

 

[southerncomfort]

Probably daft/irrelevant but I recently read an article ( sorry can't remember where) that said that in humans their is a link between stress/anxiety/high emotions and liver disease.

I think you said he's pretty laid back so may not apply, but though it worth mentioning.

 

[Michen]

Probably daft/irrelevant but I recently read an article ( sorry can't remember where) that said that in humans their is a link between stress/anxiety/high emotions and liver disease.

I think you said he's pretty laid back so may not apply, but though it worth mentioning.

Yeah he used to be quite internally stressed but he’s very chilled these days!

 

[Michen]

Oh FGS Bear. The bloods are normal! So now he's drinking excessively but it's not the liver. Previously every time the drinking has started it's shown in his bloods.

Vet back later to take urine sample and more bloods for cushings test just to be sure.

We had quite a good chat and he's going to have a think about next steps. We do think that it could be he's had a "rubbish" year. Long stints of antibiotics, liver enzymes that have at times been high and for quite a while, so maybe that is what we are seeing in his feet and that they will improve as his body settles.

I think the equibiome thing will be well worth doing I just find the 8-10 weeks waiting for results a bit frustrating. In the mean time I'm wondering whether to put him on Succeed or the equibiome prebiotic.

 

[Michen]

I had a horse who just looked rubbish last year - kept having allergic reactions, chronic UV in her eyes which we were panicking about that we wouldn't be able to manage and would mean PTS, looked a bit rubbish but nothing really off, wasn't quite sound. We discussed doing the Equibiome test but the science was poor behind it so decided to spend £30 on a the science supplements gut balancer instead as had nothing to lose. It has completely changed the horse. This year she is almost too fat and has never been a fat horse. She looks amazing.

I like the look of Richard Maxwell one as well but it was very expensive. I am a big convert to getting the gut right.

Thanks for that. I am definitely going to add a gut supplement just need to work out what one! Maybe all of them

 

[NinjaPony]

Think you are right to test for Cushings, excess drinking was the first symptom for mine. Good news that the liver is ok, but obviously frustrating not to get any answers! Could be worth sticking him on a higher protein diet that is Cushings friendly, just in case, as it won’t do him any harm either way as the diet is low sugar and low starch. There is a Cushings website that is very helpful. Hope you get some answers soon!

 

[Michen]

Right I've just ordered Ration Plus from forage plus- bit off piste from the suggestions on here but I had an order in anyway so was easy to add. It's pre and probiotics.

 

[Michen]

Think you are right to test for Cushings, excess drinking was the first symptom for mine. Good news that the liver is ok, but obviously frustrating not to get any answers! Could be worth sticking him on a higher protein diet that is Cushings friendly, just in case, as it won’t do him any harm either way as the diet is low sugar and low starch. There is a Cushings website that is very helpful. Hope you get some answers soon!

Thank you yes I did nearly order some whey protein from FP too, I think I'm just going to try one thing at a time though as adding a bunch of supplements all at once is going to end up a bit bonkers. Any suggestions on good quality bucket feed protein? Also tricky because liver diet you have to be careful with protein I believe!

 

[PurBee]

Whenever a horse presents with systemic issues, i reach for probiotics at the very get-go.
When the gut is out of balance (all sorts of reasons for this) then many other symptoms can begin to slowly show. So just as a initial boost to the system, probiotics are my number 1 supplement.

I’ve been impressed with protexin gut balancer -yet its a simple formula and for a really head-scratching case i’d want more strains of beneficial bacteria. Pre and pro-biotics are good to ise alongside each other. Prebiotics feed beneficial bacteria, whereas probiotics are beneficial bacteria.
Protexin relieved my gelding of a weird case of whole body hives, i couldnt believe how effective it was.

Also for liver health - have you tried milk thistle yet? I’d definitely add a generous dose of that to any horse with suspected liver issues.

Not sure if already mentioned as havent read the last few pages - Also consider liver issues due to potential fluke parasites. They are large parasites that love to house themselves in the tubes going into the liver - so can cause liver congestion issues and subsequent symptoms, and affect all sorts of liver functions.
The equine world online overall doesnt think horses can suffer with them, yet a few studies show they can, so its a remote possibility, yet certainly not impossible. I dont know if theres a test for liver flukes and how accurate it is, but i’ve looked at stats for ireland sheep farmers suffering with flukes and theyre really high for flukes, whereas before studying they *thought* liver flukes were a rare issue in sheep. Now standard practice is to drench for flukes annually in sheep.

A very good visual scan of the liver can sometimes show flukes laying within in the ducts of the liver.

Would your vet be onboard with treating for liver flukes? I’d be inclined to treat for them in a horse with liver issues.

Flukes can last/grow for years in the liver - not necessarily havent been ‘caught’ while in your ownership. They tend to be associated with damper climates/grazing land. The snails that transport part of fluke life-cycle prefer damper lands.
Any fields with a pond/water hole are a higher risk for liver flukes.

 

[Michen]

Whenever a horse presents with systemic issues, i reach for probiotics at the very get-go.
When the gut is out of balance (all sorts of reasons for this) then many other symptoms can begin to slowly show. So just as a initial boost to the system, probiotics are my number 1 supplement.

I’ve been impressed with protexin gut balancer -yet its a simple formula and for a really head-scratching case i’d want more strains of beneficial bacteria. Pre and pro-biotics are good to ise alongside each other. Prebiotics feed beneficial bacteria, whereas probiotics are beneficial bacteria.
Protexin relieved my gelding of a weird case of whole body hives, i couldnt believe how effective it was.

Also for liver health - have you tried milk thistle yet? I’d definitely add a generous dose of that to any horse with suspected liver issues.

Not sure if already mentioned as havent read the last few pages - Also consider liver issues due to potential fluke parasites. They are large parasites that love to house themselves in the tubes going into the liver - so can cause liver congestion issues and subsequent symptoms, and affect all sorts of liver functions.
The equine world online overall doesnt think horses can suffer with them, yet a few studies show they can, so its a remote possibility, yet certainly not impossible. I dont know if theres a test for liver flukes and how accurate it is, but i’ve looked at stats for ireland sheep farmers suffering with flukes and theyre really high for flukes, whereas before studying they *thought* liver flukes were a rare issue in sheep. Now standard practice is to drench for flukes annually in sheep.

A very good visual scan of the liver can sometimes show flukes laying within in the ducts of the liver.

Would your vet be onboard with treating for liver flukes? I’d be inclined to treat for them in a horse with liver issues.

Flukes can last/grow for years in the liver - not necessarily havent been ‘caught’ while in your ownership. They tend to be associated with damper climates/grazing land. The snails that transport part of fluke life-cycle prefer damper lands.
Any fields with a pond/water hole are a higher risk for liver flukes.

Already been on milk thistle.

fully tested for fluke including the more reliable one which was sent off to specific lab. Vet said the fluke specific wormer that works against Ireland related fluke (where he came from last year) is not a drug you want to give without good cause, can have some nasty side effects apparently.

thanks for taking the time to type all that out, appreciated.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I definitely recommend feeding the Equibiome pre biotic while waiting for the Equibiome results. My mare with the hind gut issues picked up a lot just on that. She'd been on Succeed for over a year by then but it wasn't working as well for her, and she'd gone grumpy again. Her awful biome profile was taken when she was still on the Succeed, so while it undoubtedly helped to a degree, it didn't address the prime imbalance.

The exact alterations to the diet do depend on which bacteria need encouraging and which need knocking back. My mare had hardly any good bugs and lots of bad ones .

 

[PurBee]

Already been on milk thistle.

fully tested for fluke including the more reliable one which was sent off to specific lab. Vet said the fluke specific wormer that works against Ireland related fluke (where he came from last year) is not a drug you want to give without good cause, can have some nasty side effects apparently.

thanks for taking the time to type all that out, appreciated.

you have an excellent vet on your side! ?

That’s really good thats been investigated and eliminated.

I’d look to iron levels - the blood test for iron is 2 fold - there’s circulating levels of iron tested and ‘stored’ levels of iron to test for.
Blood circulating can show ‘normal’ while stored ferritin levels can be sky high.
High iron levels can cause liver dysfunction and normally is not presented as an ‘acute’ illness case due to the liver being so resilient. High iron liver overload in horses is usually from the water source, and/or main feed of forage being high in iron, and iron levels slowly over months/years accumulate to cause non-specific symptoms until symptoms cluster.

The true test for iron liver issues seem to be biopsies or scans to look for iron damaged lesions/fibroids.

Forageplus have an article about their testing of uk and irish forage being consistently high in iron. I recently saw a haylage test sheet from a well known supplier with massive iron levels, and barely any calcium/zinc/copper to balance out the high iron.
If a horse is on water too which is high in iron, then a slow accumulation can be occurring with symptoms rarely showing until liver functions become adversely affected by it.
Have you had the water at the yard tested? Your main forage/hay/main paddock grass tested?

 

[NinjaPony]

Re protein, I just use a couple of handful of Dengie Alfalfa pellets in a treatball (could add them soaked to feed) for my pony as a protein source. They are 16 mj protein, 5 sugar, 3 starch. Not all horses get on with alfalfa but it works for my pony, and it’s a nice simple source of protein for him without adding lots of extra feed or calories.

Lots of great suggestions/advice on this thread, HHO is a real mine of knowledge.

 

[Roxylola]

Its so predictable on here but I'm going to say it anyway, ulcers? The elevated drinking I'm sure can be to try and soothe their acidy stomach (I might have imagined that). I know he's a happy dude now, but as he wasn't when you got him could they have happened then and current management has them still there but not getting worse? I've done 0 research but it makes sense in my head that there might be poor absorption of nutrients if the gut health is not right which could then give liver issues and poor hoof growth. If you haven't scoped it might be worth a try - the scoping is the least expensive bit

 

[Lammy]

I’ve got nothing really to suggest other than a pre/probiotic which others have done.

Just wanted to say I sympathise with you! Hope the root cause can be found and it’s easily treatable ??

 

[Michen]

Its so predictable on here but I'm going to say it anyway, ulcers? The elevated drinking I'm sure can be to try and soothe their acidy stomach (I might have imagined that). I know he's a happy dude now, but as he wasn't when you got him could they have happened then and current management has them still there but not getting worse? I've done 0 research but it makes sense in my head that there might be poor absorption of nutrients if the gut health is not right which could then give liver issues and poor hoof growth. If you haven't scoped it might be worth a try - the scoping is the least expensive bit

Potentially but honestly I'd need more to go on than that before opening up the can of worms that involves scoping, insurance exclusions etc. Not remotely girthy, great coat, good weight, has spent all summer in a field chilling.

I wouldn't completely discount it but it would have to be a very serious last resort for me to go down that road.

Tbh, I'm fully expecting to go up to the yard later and find the idiot hasn't touched his water and just decided he liked his new hot pink bucket on homecoming enough to down it.