Highly Aggressive Horses - Long but NEED advice!

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I like the bucket of water idea as a training aid. My comment about pepper spray and a cattle prod were not to be used as a punishment, or training aid, but rather for protection. It is far too harsh for anything else.

I also am shocked someone said not to provide food or water - talking about backing a horse into a corner.

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Bucket of water is VERY good - thoroughly tried and tested on a couple of bolshy colts here. I have one - pure ID - 2 years old and already over 16.2hh! He got a bit above himself and started trying to double-barrel me if he was eating when I went in to top up his water - he wore it. Only had to do it once! Another colt - coloured ratbag - needed 3 buckets in as many days but is now quite polite!

Far better than hitting - apart from anything else you don't have to be close. But I don't want my colts scared of ME - I just want them to know that SOMETHING descends upon them that is not pleasant when they do certain things!
 
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*NOT FOR TIA*
TBH, I am shocked anyone could suggest no water and feed. You don't break a horses spirit by force, you find out what makes them tick and work around it.

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But how else would you be able to get a life certificate for showing?
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Scuking off the vet?

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At the field where I keep my retired ponies a woman bought a new horse and put it in with mine and the other seven liveries. This horse was older than two but it was really messed up and did seem evil. It was ok with horses but kept threatening people and stopped them getting near their horses. It didn't actually attack anyone because no-one would go near enough, it was obviously dangerous. In the end the field owner told her it had to go so instead of moving it, because I think it scared her too, she sold it for peanuts. Anyway about a month later we all heard the horse had attacked and trampled someone and put them in hospital. Please put your safety first with a horse like this and make sure the owner has it shot before she passes it on to somewhere it could kill someone.
 
there was a tb where i used to work only one person could get near her and that was a bloke that belted her when she went for him it turned out she had a problem with her ovaries and needed an operation as she thought she was a stallion and ended up trying to mount mares a few years on (that was when they thought it was best to get the vet to look into it) so it was a hormone thing ahe is surprisingly alot better and you can acctually touch her
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I've never had to deal with a youngster as aggressive as this but something in this situation does remind me of a mare I bred, who went to a friend as a newly backed four year old. She was a kind, friendly, intelligent animal and showed no signs of being dominant; in fact she seemed timid rather than brave. She was the only daughter of the dominant mare in a small herd, and didn't have to fight for her place in society. She wasn't aggressive herself and was an absolute doddle to back; you couldn't ask for an easier or more obliging animal.

She had a traumatic journey (with a well-respected carrier) to her new home. I don't know just what happened, but it was several YEARS before her new owners could get her to load again. Maybe it was just the sense of being alone in a hard world, but it was as if a switch flicked in her head; she seemed to suddenly feel she must fight or go under; she became aggressive towards the others in her new herd and quite deliberately took on the herd leader (a feisty Irish Draught twice her weight and three hands higher) and lamed her, though without winning outright. She didn't totally lose her manners with humans, though she did kick the new owners OH, which didn't go down too well.

The livery yard didn't have a witches herd (great expression) as such, but it did have a wicked old mare who lived alone as being too evil to turn out with anyone else; the poor youngster was put out with her ( in a spirit of "put them in a barrel and let them fight it out between them"), but there was no fighting; the youngster immediately accepted the older horse's authority almost with relief, it seemed, whilst the older mare seemed glad of the companionship- and that was that.

I think your filly, like mine, is actually a bit disoriented, and actually fighting for what she sees as survival; as others have said, she has only ever been dominant, and now she must learn that top of the herd isn't her place. But I think in a herd of several animals she doesn't actually feel safe until she has attained dominance, and its this that keeps her fighting. If you take totally understandable measures to protect yourself by frightening / personally punishing her and chasing her away from the food, she'll fight you, too- not because she wants to but because she sees you as a threat.

I think trying to punish her by letting her see you feed the others and not her, is going to be especially damaging; in fact, I wouldn't feed her in the field at all or feed the others in sight of her until you have some sort of dominance over her. After that, if she is dominant over the other horses, it won't really matter- as long as she obeys you. I think I would bring her in, and feed her in a stable by herself, and don't turn her out until there's no food left to fight over; or even keep her stabled until she mellows a bit.

I think the punishment thing is tricky; you've got to punish her, but without looking aggressive yourself, or she'll just feel pressurized to keep fighting- so though I can quite see why you carry a lunge whip (& have done the same myself with another potentially dangerous horse), once you have to use something as extreme as a cattle prod not only could she panic and really kick you but she's learning not so much that you are an authority but that you are an aggressor. She won't associate an electric collar with you, only with her action, so that sounds a better idea.

However, with the dangers involved, perhaps it is better to simply put her down; I think you could "reclaim" her but there's no denying its a risk.
 
Not read all of this but my thoughts are

- How the heck has a young horse got like this?
- No I would not PTS its not the horses fault
- It needs to be checked by a vet
- then go to a pro who isnt going to beat it and make it worse
 
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Yes, shoot the damn thing before it kills someone!

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i tell you what i amount of times this answer crops up on this forum it is scary the answer isn't always to PTS

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I think trying to punish her by letting her see you feed the others and not her, is going to be especially damaging; in fact, I wouldn't feed her in the field at all or feed the others in sight of her until you have some sort of dominance over her.
<font color="blue">In a herd environment, dominant horses have priority over feed, eating/drinking first normally, hence why you should feed her companion first, to reinforce dominance, not as a 'punishment', I don't think you understood that point.
I don't think you can just avoid the issue by not feeding her at all in sight of the others. And how would you advise Tia to gain 'some sort of dominance over her'? </font>

After that, if she is dominant over the other horses, it won't really matter- as long as she obeys you. I think I would bring her in, and feed her in a stable by herself, and don't turn her out until there's no food left to fight over; or even keep her stabled until she mellows a bit.
<font color="blue"> The dominance over humans is the problem...if you feed her in a stable, and she aggresses to you, then you leave her with the food.... you are reinforcing her dominance over you. Not good. And I'm not sure I'd relish being stuck in a stable with this girl, nor leading her to and from the field
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I think the punishment thing is tricky; you've got to punish her, but without looking aggressive yourself, or she'll just feel pressurized to keep fighting- so though I can quite see why you carry a lunge whip (&amp; have done the same myself with another potentially dangerous horse), once you have to use something as extreme as a cattle prod not only could she panic and really kick you but she's learning not so much that you are an authority but that you are an aggressor. She won't associate an electric collar with you, only with her action, so that sounds a better idea.
<font color="blue"> I don't think you should consider this in terms of punishing her, so much as negatively or positively reinforcing her behaviour, as required. </font>
However, with the dangers involved, perhaps it is better to simply put her down; I think you could "reclaim" her but there's no denying its a risk.

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<font color="blue">But earlier you say it will be 'damaging' to let her see you feeding the others and not her, whereas I think having her 'put down' would be more damaging to her
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I blame the owner, not the horse.
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In the end I don't think its morally wrong to put a horse down if you really cannot handle it or cannot accept the risk involved; having the horse humanely destroyed on the spot is better than getting killed yourself (followed by horse which is now "KNOWN" to be dangerous) or tormenting the poor animal by getting it wrong- with maybe the same result. Of course, if someone else can sort it out, great.

edited to remove evidence of the Cat helping me with the typing again.
 
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In the end I don't think its morally wrong to put a horse down if you really cannot handle it or cannot accept the risk involved; having the horse humanely destroyed on the spot is better than getting killed yourself (followed by horse which is now "KNOWN" to be dangerous) or tormenting the poor animal by getting it wrong- with maybe the same result. Of course, if someone else can sort it out, great.
<font color="blue"> I agree that truly dangerous horses should be put down...but I've only ever met two in a 20 years of working with horses...and one of them had a brain tumour. Humans/owners create a lot of these behavioural problems, or allow them to develop so should take some responsibility and some steps to sort them out, especially with a horse as young as this. </font>
edited to remove evidence of the Cat helping me with the typing again.

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<font color="blue"> But I wanted to hear the Cat's opinions too
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Whatever happened to free speech?
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Sorry, I've just sussed the colour coding. The dominance thing; if you feed this horse with other horses you are just soaking a rod for your own back. SHE is presently, or increasingly, the dominant horse and will be right in there as soon as the food bowls appear; and if you try and stop her in an open field, she'll walk all over you. If you then punish her - well, with some horses it would work, but I think this one isn't just trying it on; she feels driven to fight back because she doesn't feel secure unless she's at the top of the tree, and you cannot risk a fight that you might lose or that might injure you.

Letting her see the others feeding IMO would just make her more desperate and unco-operative. I can see where you're coming from- e.g. I make the dog wait while the cat is fed first, to reinforce the cat's somewhat shakey superiority and to stop the dog eating the cat's dinner &amp; possibly the cat as well- however, I have some hold over the dog; she has learnt where she stands in the hierarchy and I'm just reinforcing what she knows. The filly doesn't know this- and if she is a dominant filly I don't think you will ever teach her to be submissive to other horses; I've never seen anyone manage to alter the pecking order and the dynamics of the herd itself, except by removing animals or adding animals; I don't think you have much leverage with which to change the way they interact with each other. All you can do IMO is make sure she respects YOUR place in the hierarchy: the TOP! So I don't think you are reinforcing anything by feeding the others and not her, except her own frustration and maybe her urge to corner you &amp; keep you for herself,

She could be difficult in the stable, but on a one to one basis I think she will get easier, and you haven't got the distraction and threat of other horses. For me, this helped a lot with a quite difficult (suspicious, untrusting, defensive / aggressive) youngster on box rest through injury. No, of course you don't drop the feed and flee if the filly turns on you; tie her up before you feed her. (The one thing that worried me in the box was being squashed against the walls; so I carried a short stick and when this was threatened, I poked her with it as if she was leaning on something spikey.)

The Cat's musings were mainly food related- as in- "Where is it?". She comes &amp; sits on the keyboard when she feels its food time. She would be very gratified to know that she is reaching a wider audience- but even more gratified if I got off my bum &amp; fed her.
 
Yes, I do agree the problems of problem horses are usually man-made, but I think horses can be truly dangerous without it being any fault of their own. Same with dogs. All credit to those who can take on the difficult cases, but I wouldn't blame anyone for giving up for the sake of their own safety.
 
QR - if she is too dodgy to lead, could you not trailer her to the new field (assuming you can drive her into a trailer)??

We have a gelding pony (13hh) at our yard that is seriously dodgy with people entering the field (double barrels you) if he is turned out with other horses, he is O.K. in the field if he doesn't have companions to guard!!! He is still iffy to lead. He is in his 20's now, so hasn't got better with age.
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If she were mine I would definitely want her hormone levels checked (if only to rule that out).

Good luck and please post a pic of your hard hat!!
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*NOT FOR TIA*
TBH, I am shocked anyone could suggest no water and feed. You don't break a horses spirit by force, you find out what makes them tick and work around it.

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But kinder than just shooting it like has been suggested!

Im sorry but if a horse had had me on the ground and literally tried to kill me by trying to stamp my head in, like this one did with Tia, and it was as bad as this filly, desperate times cause for desperate measures.

She cant handle the horse or even go in the same field as it, isnt allowed to get the vet out to sedate it or take any tests etc.
So its a case of herding it somewhere, or apparantly according to some people beating it into submission, well I wouldnt like to take my chances with that.

The only thing she CAN control about this horse is how much feed and water it gets, making it go hungry for a day or two wont kill it.
Personally I would be telling the livery to get it off my land before it did kill someone.
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I've only met one mare like this before, and it didn't have a happy ending.
I was asked to collect three horses from a racehorse trainer and she was one of them, none fo the grooms would enter her stable to put a headcollar on, or load her, and it was with some trepidation and no eye contact I managed to do so.
her best trick was to snap her teeth at you whilst lungeing at you at the same time, this was backed up with rearing and flying hooves attempting to get you on the head, and when she landed she would try and spin to double barrel you.
She wasn't however at all agressive in the field towards the others.
The chap never paid any rent after the first three months and she was here for two years, during which time she calmed down and like your filly became friendly and sort of trusted us. The only time we had trouble was doing anything to her, she was bad with the farrier, and instantly produced her entire repertoir of threats so she was rarely trimmed.
After two years my husband said enough is enough, we aren't going to get paid so lets put her in foal, our stallion should even out that temperament.
She was duly covered and appeared ok, so we got the vet out to scan her.
It was the first time he had seen her, and she went mental. we couldn't even catch her over the door for ages, and even then he had to sedate over the door her to even look at her. the entire time she was attempting to kill him, and I say kill not just hurt.
When she was under he examined her and found she wasn't in foal, at this point we talked and decided the risk of her hurting anyone was too great to carry on, plus seeeing just how terrible that temperament could be I didn't want to use her after that anyway.
We made the decision on the spot to have her euthanised whilst still dopey, and even then she fought like a demon, it took a lot of anaesthetic to kill her....
We were so upset but had she ever turned on anyone inocently touching her they could have been killed, and treating any injuries would have been impossible too.
When it was over I managed to trace her history, she had been bought for an absolute fortune, and had raced as a two year old, breaking down and then being fired by a vet in Glos.. He told me he had done it, admitted he'd poured battery acid over her legs, and that she had put two Newmarket vet's in hospital after that incident.
I would still pour the stuff over any wounds he had if ever given the opportunity, wicked bast**d.
I think this mare behaved as she did because of her former treatment, in your mare's case I think you might find her ovaries aren't working properly and she has too much testosterone. A blood test will show if this is correct.
The only safe way to trim her feet is sedate her I'm afraid, and even then be ever so careful, both of you know exactly what you're doing yet she still sounds a nightmare.
I suffer guilt feelings to this day about our filly, she had sort of learned not all humans are wicked, but in times of stress would just have reverted to stallion like attacking.
The only other thing I can think of is a brain tumour, and if she were on my farm, I am afraid she would have to go elsewhere, with Megan and your dogs roaming round she may turn on one of them , although Meg is old enough to understand, kids have a horrible habit of dreaming and forgetting instructions!
I don't envy you a solution...
 
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I dunno...I find it hard to believe Tia isn't capable of convincing the owner to get the horse checked out if necessary!

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Well obviously that is what should be done, it is the owners responsibility afterall
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, I was just going on what Tia said about how she is not allowed to do anything which will cost money, and that the owner will not have any involvement.

Like I said, I would want rid of the horse, its the owners problem, and why should Tia put herself in danger.
 
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I dunno...I find it hard to believe Tia isn't capable of convincing the owner to get the horse checked out if necessary!

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Well, if the owner is as petrified as Tia says, then I expect she won't see the point of shelling out pointlessly (the point being relative, of course!)
I know LOADS of people who say they adore their horses, and cover it with kisses but don't even get them shod regularly... Having said that, I do think my yard has an unusually high concentration of cheap basstads and eejits.

Sorry ETS that I'm not implying that the owner of the filly is either of these things.
 
Back in now for the evening. I didn't move the filly as dark came down too quickly, so she will be moved first thing in the morning when I have more people to help me.

Thank you all so much for your help, thoughts and tellings of horses you have had who have been this bad. I've never had dealings with a horse this bad I have to say; yes we've had aggressive horses come here, and at our previous yard in England - shoot I did this for a living back there! However none were anywhere near as bad as her. All of those ones may have lunged at you and looked like they wanted to hurt you - this one isn't like this - she absolutely, unquestionably wants to kill anyone who gets in her way or doesn't conform to what she deems acceptable.

BUT she isn't always like this. I have been out in the corral this afternoon and she came up to the double gates. I was petting her for at least half an hour, no ears back, no biting or double-barreling and no aggressive movements at all (she has been like this many times with me when I brush her or scratch her). Anyway, my little daughter came out when one of my boarders turned up. The boarder came over to where I was and told me about the trouble he had had with her yesterday. The moment he came over, her reaction was quite different; ears went back, scowling face and I could actually see her hind legs being put on high alert!

Anyway he didn't go to pat her, although I still was patting her and she showed none of this aggression to me, purely to him. He went to pat her and she lunged at him, so he bopped her on the nose; well she got in a tizzy and put on her killer-look! He wandered off to catch his horse who was wandering around in the main corral (where we were) and immediately she became all lovey-dovey with me.

My herd leader came up from the field as my daughter, who was diagonally opposite me on the other run of the field, called her to her. Jess went right over to my daughter, and the filly on seeing this, decided to leave me and go over to see what was going on. I shouted over to daughter to watch herself and of course she was her usual blase self, the filly wouldn't do anything to her....

Anyway she was patting Jess, filly came across and immediately lunged over the fence with ears back and snarly face. Daughter quickly moved away from the fence and then the horse smashed against the fence to try to get at her!

The trouble is we are all reaffirming that she is the boss because when she so quickly does these things, it makes people jump or run away from her so she thinks she is above all these people. I don't; however I admit I do make my way out of the field at a slightly quicker pace if I do not have something to protect myself with. This is what has to stop - she has to NOT have people backing down from her and in the environment she is living at present, everyone is backing down to her!

I think once she is in the corral, she won't have all these people having anything to do with her therefore her demeanor has to alter somewhat.

I would never hit her for the sake of it; she doesn't belong to me and it's not my place to hit her, however I will certainly defend myself if/when she does come after me. So far all I have done to her was flick the back of her hind feet with the lunge whip and yes that did give her a bit of a jolt, however it wouldn't have hurt her.

She can live in this little corral for the time-being and I will spend extra time with her - trouble is though, she is so unpredictable that even if I did get close to her, there's absolutely no telling that she will change to allowing others to......bit of a blooming pain having a horse like this on a livery yard....
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Will let you all know how we get on....and yes I have dug around in my hay barn and I now have a piece of poly-pipe just for emergencies. The water would be a great idea if it wasn't for the weather here; although it is going warmer this weekend, it will be back down to -silly temperatures again and the water would freeze solid the moment it touched her so will probably not be able to use this, unless a moment arose this weekend when it is milder.

Thank you everyone - VERY much appreciated and will keep you updated.
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WE had a stallion like that at a stud I worked at, he got worse and they thought startingto break himwould help - it didnt have he was put to sleep as he was no use to anyone and dangerous.

I cannot see why anyone would wish to own that horse, and if she has not learned in 2 years can she ever learn?

I am not usually so harsh, but If she gets worse, is she woth saving if she is a danger to man and beast?
 
The other problem, apart from the owner not wanting to spend the money on this filly, is that the owner is often not even in this Province, she is often 3.500 miles away on the other side of Canada; so it's got to be sorted for free.

The thing is, I decided when I moved here not to do any more rehab with horses with similar issues to this one. Mainly because they are so mentally exhausting and incredibly time-consuming, for not a lot of financial profit. With a couple of my previous ones (and one I ended up with over here by accident) I found I was spending so much time with these ones and not enough time with the ones who would actually get somewhere....that's why I stopped it.

I'd rather spend the time with youngsters whose only issues might be that someone has been overly harsh with them - these ones almost always come good, so far lesser emotional baggage for me.

I'll give her a go though and give her more time than with the others and see it as a benefit to me and my boarders. Fingers crossed, she'll get there. I actually think that she will come right - I just don't know whether she will ever be trustworthy with other people due to her territorial nature.
 
I think she can learn - I just don't know how respectful she will be once she is placed back in a herd situation again, particularly when there are other people going in and out of the field all the time.

Whomever it was that mentioned the trauma of making such a massive journey; I agree with you. When we flew our little mare out here, we'd owned her for years, however she was completely out of sorts for at least a month, on arriving here; so this really could be part of this filly's problem. I can't figure out whether someone may have hit her or whether it is just the move which has made her react.

Well, can but try eh.
 
I had one like this. No reason for the change in her behaviour. She came from a really good breeder but changed before i got her. The breeder couldn't say but just said "she's changed in the last three weeks. She's not like her mother she's like her auntie. You could have problems.." Well that was the understatement of the year!

She is the only horse I've ever had that attacked. Most will accept that you are the boss but this one gave me both back feet and tried to stamp on me when i was on the ground with a broken and dislocated arm/elbow. So yes i've been there and who knows why the horse was like this. There was just a huge mistrust and whatever I did i couldnt gain the trust.

I watched her for hours and she seemed to have no fear. She ran straight into the Boss of the field, just galloped straight at him and into his side! Very odd behaviour.

She ran straight through a five bar gate. She took the door off her stable numerous times. Each time the bolt was replaced with a bigger one until the last time when my OH said if she takes this of the whole stable comes down...it was that bad. She took all the elctrics down one night- she had to have stood on her back legs to do it!

I needed at least two other people to hold her if I wanted to brush her and couldnt go into her stable without reinforcements.

She just had no apparent fear but was clearly frightened of people...but why? Everyone had always been firm but kind.
A friend of mine said " She's going to kill herself one day"" And she did.

Had she not fatally injured herself i was intending to try join up with her (with an expert on hand) as i felt this was the only option. I still believe that if I could have broken down the barriers she put up there was a lovely horse underneath.

Sorry if thats not a lot of help to you but it's helped me! Just to know there are other people around with similar issues for no apparent reason. I have never really got over losing her because I never got to the root of her issues if you know what I mean. I would have been so much happier if she had died a happy horse.
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So maybe try join up.
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Dont have her pts before exploring other avenues.
 
The only redeeming feature about this filly compared to ones like your mare, is that she has very high self-preservation. From what I have viewed (and I've spent hours watching her), she will not ever allow herself to get into a situation where SHE could be hurt.

The other thing I noticed this evening; when I was scratching her, I felt that she has huge teeth-bumps under her jaw - I wonder if her teeth coming through are painful for her and this is her way of dealing with that pain.
 
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