Highly Aggressive Horses - Long but NEED advice!

Well Im not qualified to give an opinion on this, but having worked with an agressive horse in the past I found that taking the horse out of the field and giving it routine and daily handling and lots of telling off at the right moments combined with lots of praise. just seemed to make all the difference in the world. The horse did then go back out into the field much improved but always lapsed if he wasnt regularly handled again. I think the handling just seemed to give him a better idea of his 'place' at that yard.


I would bring her in; stable it at night, turn it out at day. Groom it. pick out its feet every day. So that it gets into a really strong routine, and also so that you can put her into her place at any point in time should she start to be rude.. So a strong routine would mean that she has a strong set of ground rules enforced upon her.
Simply teaching her to let you pick up her feet, groom her, rug her and lead her about in a mannerly fashion could work wonders for her. Using your voice to tell her when she is being bad and immediately praising and patting when she is being good. Using a stick (or whatever-cattle prod I guess if she really is that agressive ) to smack her one if she starts trying to kick or bite or whatever. Then immediately praising when she is good. Would handle her/lead her in a pressure halter rather than a chifney.
Then she may or may not be a nicer horse when/if she goes back out to the herd again..
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Tia perhaps some Pirelli games would help. May I suggest the 'hind your hinny' game as this would help you establish dominance over this filly and get the to become more of a follower, to me she sound left brain assertive, so is using dominance to hide her insecurities. Good luck.
 
She can't be stabled unfortunately as owner will not pay for indoor board, and doesn't want it either; so everything will have to be done in her little corral. Everything should be doable within the corral. I think the lack of handling is a major part of the problem - that and not having been weaned.
 
I know. Seems extreme to me too - however so is her behaviour with no apparent reason for it.

She has never been weaned. She is going to be weaned tomorrow though.
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I think you are going above and beyond for this owner and her horse tbh and she should consider herself VERY lucky! I realise you must have to do it right now for the sake of all of the lives on the farm, but I truly hope she ( boarder) knows just what type of favor she is being done. I am not sure many stable owners would do all of this Tia.
I was going to suggest charging her double but she sounds unwilling to pay much of anything so I assume it would be pointless. I would get the horse off of your property at the first opportunity. Let this be her probelm,
you are running a business.
 
Thank you Jade. I try.....that and I actually see her as a mind-challenge. So long as she doesn't turn out to be a massive time-challenge then it is worth trying with her. Her owner has her own farm over here by the way. We weren't supposed to be collecting these horses for a couple of weeks after they came here, but the owner phoned me one morning frantic and asking if we could move them that day to our farm. I don't know what went on as the woman was incredibly panicky, but now I am imagining that something similar happened to her. She is a really sweet lady, but way too gentle and quiet for a horse like this.

When I saw her a few weeks ago, just after the filly had attacked me in front of her, that was when she told me that the filly had done the same to her. I asked her how she would feel about me making a move and splitting Mum and filly up - she gave me the go ahead to do whatever I decided because of the upset the filly has caused to her.

I won't give myself great extra work; the filly isn't going in a stable without the owner paying for full board, but to keep her low maintenance in a corral is no biggie for me.

Wish us luck - wish HER luck. I hope this filly comes through this and out the other end with flying colours and not flying hooves!
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If poss get vet to check it over after/ if it can be sedated, go from there she may be in bad pain, if poss how about that Pirelli ? assuming she is eventually handleable.! or cud it have some ACP somehow in order for it to get used to being handled? vet needed urgently i reckon.
 
Tia, I simply cannot believe how irresponsible this owner is being. You say she is a nice gentle lady, but her neglect of the care and education of this filly amounts to cruelty, and not telling you about any behavioural problems is really not on. This lady is nowhere near as nice as you think she is, she has been calculating and selfish, and she is now with holding the expense and work the filly needs to put it right by choice, so please don't think you owe her anything and please don't put yourself at risk.

For all those who have said that it isn't the filly's fault so she shouldn't be PTS - you are right it isn't her fault and it maybe that with isolation and education she may learn some manners. However if the cause is due to hormones or brain injury these conditions will continue unchecked - and that, IMO, would be more cruel than ending it now.
 
I'm sure you have had pleanty of advice etc from everyone here- but I have a little story of a past mare that sounds ever so similar to yours....

Candy (what an ironic name for the mare) was brought to a yard I worked at when I was about 17/18 she was about 3 rising four and arrived with her mother. She was to be weaned and broken to ride as a competition horse (It was very posh competition yard) the filly was nasty. She was even nasty towards her own mother. Not one of us wanted to lead her in, and if we were unlucky to we were kitted out in full on body/head protection. The week following weaning was hell- little filly got worse- would charge at us when we came to bring her in for the night- and teaching it to pick its feet up- ha ha that was a mission. About 3 weeks later the little filly coliced in the stable- one of the girls spent an entire night with her- talking to her and just being with her and something in that filly changed. She was much milder and more reasonable. She was never easy afterwards and you ALWAYS had to be wary round her, and she was always turned out alone (other that the occasional shetland who stood its ground) but she did enventually mellow to some extent. I know you cannot make the same situation in your case- but there is certainly hope for the filly- just dont expect her to ever be a 'nice' mare. Good luck and just remember that this is a favour and you must think of your own safety. Let us know how the weaning goes.
 
I think I would try using the length of plastic pipe and/or throwing water at her when she behaves badly whilst she is separated in the small paddock and also not give her any hard feed until she learns to respect you a little more. If this doesn't work I'd advise the owner to have the filly put to sleep as she is clearly dangerous.

At the stables I'm at we have an 18 month old that pushes our top horse who is an witch around, she is the boss of the whole field and owned by a novice owner who she walks all over (literally). I cannot for the life of me see why any of the horses tolerate her behaviour, but luckily she has only been aggressive towards other liveries a handful of times. She's amazingly stubborn and it is extremely hard to get her to back down.
 
Get it off you're land, IF she did attack someone ie you're daughter went in there not thinking about it and she went for her it would be awful. Theres no need for a 2 year old to behave in such a way.
 
This thread horrifies me.

If you are killed by this filly how will your daughter cope without a mother? Or the rest of your family for that matter?

If a livery is killed how will you cope with the lawsuit? Loseing your land and horses perhaps?

Don't assume that she will not break out of a paddock or coral or stable to attack someone. I've seen many stallions break out of stables with reinforced doors to attack other stallions they dislike. She may not be a stallion but she is emoitional and unpredictable. She's getting bigger and stronger by the day and she may give it a try. Horses are tough, they can often break through fencing with minimal damage to themselves. Using stun collers/prods can cause an emotional response in some animals making matters worse - have a look at some of the research done on dogs that have aggression problems. Not to say its not a good idea and may not work but worth considering.

The owner is not being fair on you. She either gives you carte blanche to spend as much money as is necessary to investigate what's wrong with this filly - including vets examinations, physio, trainers specialising in aggression etc or ask her to leave. You sound like an EXCELLENT very experienced horsewomen yet you are stumped and unsure what to do. This filly needs a trainer who has done this day in day out and 'cured' a number of cases. One that knows exactly what response is required stright away.

I have seen many riders put in hospital by such horses and have handled them myself. It is scarey and no fun at all. And thats what horses are supposed to be - fun. Yes, we have a responsibility to do our best for them, but not all horses can be saved. Unless this can be nipped in the bud she will always need expert handling and unless she is exceptionally talented then why would anyone bother. There are loads of very talented horses with sweet natures about, so it is not worth most peoples time to own one that could hurt or even kill them. Some people specialise in horses such as this - best she goes there so she can be helped properly and rejoin society as a useful and fun horse to own.
 
Only thing I can say is try to modify the horses routine in a way that suits it somehow. See if it comes right, give it a chance. Id definately get the vet out to see if the horse is experiencing any pain etc.

Please dont "shoot it" like some have suggested. We do NOT know the horse or its background etc. so how people can come to such a quick very final decision is beyond me.
 
I have quite alot of experience working with young horses, working at many studs and managing a livery yard.

The whole story about this nightmare filly reminds me a great deal of a 3 year old that was brought in for me and a collegue to back and break. He was a big horse of hunter type, not the kind of animal you would pick a fight with. Although he wasnt 'aggresive'. he was what I call 'quirky'. Olly was a Gekil and Hyde, one minute you would be having cuddles and the next he was waving his front feet in front of your nose, teeth out with his eyes almost white.

At the time we thought he was just being a little whatsit and continued with his training, and if he stepped out of line, he got a smack. After handling the horse alot more, you always felt safer, and Olly was more relaxed, if you put his saddle on and rugs etc from the off side. We assumed he was just happier with you on this side.

Then it happened. After a few weeks he was lunging nicely in side reins. He would often stop- like these youngsters do, but if you asked him forward again, he would. My collegue was lunging him one morning when he stopped, he was told to go forward again but in the blink of an eye, he had reared up, shoot backwards and hit the deck. He then continued for about half a minute to strike out with his front legs. His legs were tangled in the lunge and the side reins but noone could get near him to release him. It was almost like he was suffocating and trying to get something of his head. He just kicked and kicked his head. He soon stopped and we both new he had died.

The vets took the body to do a post mortom. They found he had a 'weakness' on one side of his brain which had obviously just given up. They think this was probably why he was funny about one side.

Anyway, the moral of this story is that quite often these horses that are 'quirky', agressive, frustrated or whatever you want to call them, have a problem. Sometimes very serious. No one could have known the problem that Olly had could have killed him but it could have been detected with something very simple like a sight test.

I strongly suggest you consider seeking veterinary advice.

These wonderful beasts cant talk and if they are behaving in such a way to cause serious concern, like this filly is, then look at it as your signal to seek out a problem.

It must be difficult as you dont own the filly.

I would personally remove the filly from the herd and create a pecking order with you at the top and her below you. Once that is established, which will require ALOT of patience as it may take a while, then re introduce her to the herd. Even then I would wait a while to feed her alongside other horses.

I wish you the very best of luck with her.
 
I have been following this thread with great interest as this is a situation that I could see developing with a 15hh 2 yr old livery that I have at my yard, although I would hope not to such extreme behaviour.

Back in September this mare came to me. She had never been away from the yard she was bred at and also never been taught anything much other than to wear a headcollar.

She was underweight too.

Her owners (2 teenage girls) know very little about handeling horses and nothing about training. they have had lessons at a riding school.
They pay only $200 ($100) a month for livery, so this obviously doesn't include any training.
I have tried to impress on the girls (who only get chance to visit once or twice a week) that they must handle her as much as possible. Tie her up, brush her, pick up her feet, etc
in order to give her some routine of life and some manners by teaching her to mover over etc.
They are however a bit scared of her because she is a tipical baby ie. dosn't stand still, bends round pushes them around a bit, because she is not used to being asked to do anything.

Lately she has got more dominant with them and sometimes with me too. Unfortunately they back off from her when she dominates and so they reward her bad behaviour and she has gained confidence through this.
They came to find me the other day because she was (not actually rearing in the box) but bouncing up in front and kicking hell out of the door with her front hooves.
I don't know why she started it but she was quite disturbed when I came in to see her and she was being very assertive.
I told them to leave her alone to calm down and I would help them rug her up and put her back in the field.
30 mins later I tied her (short) and put her rug on just jollying her along praising any good behaviour and trying to be firm but without confrontation and she was really good.

I have told them (and their parents) that they should sell her as they are out of their depth and don't have the time anyway, that she needs lots of (as has been sugested by many on this thread) consistant handeling.
Like Tia I am not being paid to train this horse but she is getting worse as she is growing older and is not learning her place.

Part of me wants to get stuck in and work with her to help this situation, but they would not be willing (or may not be able) to pay for me to do this, and I really don't have the time to be putting in the time for free.

Also I am a little unsure of how to proceed. I have worked with a lot of horses in the past, but have only come back to horses recently after pretty much a 15 yr break.

I don't want to fight with her, I don't think constant confrontation is the answer, but she does need to know that she can't throw her toys out of the pram very time anything is asked of her too.
She has also shown (and this is what wories me and makes me think her bad behaviour could esculate) a tendancy to come back at me if I have made her move over or smacked her nose if she has taken a nip at me.

The other day when I brought them into the barn to feed, she started the kicking her box door again, so I got my schooling wip and really smacked it against the door a few times and this startled her and that made her stop and think and made her back off.
I think I need to let her know that I am boss, but as long as I am not doing much with her and the girls are making her worse I can't see that there will be any improvement, she will only get worse.
One of the girls want to sell her now but the other is adamant that she won't.
Parents don't have a clue. I have pointed out in no uncertain terms that someone will get hurt soon. Probably one of their daughters but they don't seem to get it.

Not sure how to proced with the situation at present, but weill moniter things and see how they go.

Hope your situation improves soon Tia.

If you succeed with that one I might get them to send mine to you!
Just kidding
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The thing is, Tia, you don't have the tools - because they are being denied to you by the person who is REALLY responsible for this horse - to even start to fix this situation. Truthfully you aren't even being put in a situation where you can accurately assess the horse. As you say, it is not worth your time or money to sort out someone else's problem, especially when it puts you, your family, your boarders and your business potentially at risk.

Harsh? Absolutely. But it's not YOU letting this filly down, it's her people. They are being bad owners . . . the world is full of them. It just sucks for you it's happening on your doorstep. I'd, personally, ask them to remove the horse. You can't save 'em all.

As far as the horse's behaviour . . . from what I've heard you're well qualified to have an opinion and you seem to think she's fundamentally abnormal. I've spent most of my life working with young and "difficult" horses (certainly well up into the 100's, possibly over 1000 by now and I know thousands of horses personally) - I've had one that turn and bit the rider, ones that throw themselves on the ground, rearers, "flippers", terrorised ones, belligerent ones, stunningly badly trained ones, lame ones . . . all manner of victims and sinners. My point being I'm not put off by a little trouble and the vast majority have hopefully been improved if not sorted and have taught me a lot.

It also means I've met a few I would classify as "insane" or damaged in such a way as to make a solution impossible. They are very few and very far between and most people never meet them for the simple fact they don't get broke or even reliably handled so don't end up in the general population. One was fine to ride (a GREAT jumper for a kid at 1.40m!) but incredibly dangerous to handle. He picked me up by the shoulder and shook me like a dog shaking a rat one day - luckily I had a winter coat on! He turned out to have an incredibly painful congenital kidney disease, which eventually killed him but he must have been in horrendous pain his whole life.

One (given to me) used to have "spells" where he suddenly became a different horse. It could take many forms - once he ran straight into a fence (while being ridden) he hit it so hard he flipped over. Another time he went through the side of a round pen after a dog that kept barking (cured the dog
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). His piece de resistance was the day I tripped walking past him and put my arm out against the wall under his nose, whereupon he bit through to the bone. Fantastic scar I've used to prove to many people horse do in fact sometimes bite people badly! I rode him and showed him reasonably successfully - he did improve with training - but he was never reliable and my coach was constantly terrified he'd get me one day. It was so hard to keep him because it proved impossible to keep people away from him - everyone seemed to want to "help" him. I eventually had him put down and he turned out to have a brain abnormality.

One was a stallion who came from a famously unpleasant line. He was most like your situation as the owners would not allow any of the measures which might have helped. He grabbed me by the neck one day when I stupidly bent down near him but luckily I had a think pony tail at the time. Good people told me to walk away but I felt some sort of insane commitment. (Should have been committed . . .) He taught me a valuable lesson though - one day I was riding him and he was trying to kill me as usual and I suddenly snapped. I got off him (while he was rearing), handed the owners the reins, said calmly and quietly, "I'm sorry, I don't need this ****," and walked out of the arena. The world didn't end and I didn't get kicked out of the horse trainers union. The horse is still alive but has not left his box in years. Really.

The others I knew more about. One was a filly I broke for a breeder and her dam was one of those "can't ride it, let's breed it" numbers. The filly had a few good shots at taking me out (once publicly at The Royal). The girl who took my job after me was not so lucky . . . she won't ride again and is lucky to be walking at all.

The last 3 were a mare and two of her foals. They were different varieties of bonkers but all just as bad. The first one I met, the one I broke, gave me a feel the first time I sat on her I've never experienced before or since. She put me in hospital, my assistant in hospital a week later(we had the same doctor - he was horrified!), and did finally injure herself by putting chips in her ankles attacking the walls of her stalls. She did go to another trainer who said he had her handled but when we went to see her she was so stoned she was drooling with her head on the floor. Her older brother was just as mad and the mare was lethal but basically ran feral and was live covered. This farm had 80 horses and produced 20 odd foals a year, many of them related to these fruit loops and reared exactly the same way but without the psychotic end result.

My point is there are "bad" horses. They may have their reasons but that doesn't mean they're a fixable. They MIGHT be manageable if someone will take the time and pay the money and, quite frankly, if they're worth it. Many "quirky" horses live long, happy and successful lives. My very good event horse was a seriously twisted fellow from a known line of difficult horses BUT he did his job and did not endanger people. Sometimes it's man made but that isn't the same thing as fixable.

At any rate, even if this one is salvageable the person who MUST do that will not. That leaves you with all the risk - and it's HUGE - plus the legal and financial responsibility if anything happens.

It sucks. It sucks for you and it sucks for her. But it's not your fault. As you say, there are people and horse who need - and appreciate - your time. Tell the owner that. If she wants the horse to die - which it surely will, one way or another the way it's going - because she can't be bothered to take responsibility for a horse she brought into the world then so be it.

I hope it works out. Don't get hurt.
 
I am sorry but all I can say is VET VET VET VET VET!!!!! How can anyone even think about starving, withdrawing water, electric collars etc etc etc without having this poor Filly tested for everythiong, to me like others have said it really sounds like massive insecurities mixed with an overload of hormones. If this horse does not see a vet to make sure she is Ok before she has her so called 'last chance', then she won't be getting a fair go.

To me the Owner sounds completely irresponsible, she has bred this filly, done nothing with her and dumped her on you and won't even pay for her to be helped. I would tell her in no uncertain terms that this Filly can only stay if she sees the VET and if there is nothing wrong with her then expert help, eg Monty Roberts etc is enlisted to help. Only then is she getting a fair chance.

THERE IS A GOOD REASON FOR HER BEHAVIOUR, you just have to find out what it is in order to solve it. You can't solve a problem without knowing all the facts!!!

My own horse has been labled Dangerous and was nearly PTS before I took him on. Maybe not quite as agressive as this Filly, however he has tried to stamp on heads with previous owners!!! he is another 'fight' type, if you argue with him he comes back ten times harder! And he has charged at a few people who have confronted him. The key was not to argue, patience of a saint and kindness won him over. The most I have done to him is a firm no!!!
I have had him for three years and yes we have many issues ridden etc. but to handle he is now a dream. He is as soft as butter even my 11yr old step daughter turns him out and he follows her like a very large puppy

For the time being, I would keep her in the Corral and tell everyone to stay away from her for the time being Even put a sign on the fence! She needs to build a bond with you. Start by feeding and watering etc etc and I am sure she will start looking at you as the provider/leader and someone she can trust. BE HER FRIEND, might be hard I know, but she will be safely on the otherside of the fence. Sounds like there is already a bond beginning from the cuddles you get over the fence. Then you can gradually work on handling from there.

I am new on this forum and to be honest quite horrified at how quick a lot of people are to say 'shoot it'!!!! yes she may be difficult/dangerous but she needs a fair chance before that should be considered, after all it is normally us humans that cause the problem in the first place.

SORRY RANT OVER


It makes me so angry.
 
just wanted to add ...Cruiser there are some really sad stories there. Completely agree that she may not be so called fixable, I just hope the owner will take the financial responsibilty of trying to give this filly some help! If not then I have to agree that the best thing will be for her to be PTS otherwise who knows wghere she will end up
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I forgot the one with the very odd reactions and HIGHLY hysterical reactions that turned out to have broken its neck, possibly twice in the space of about a month, through mismanagement. He was largely rehabilitated through medical intervention and verrrrry careful retraining but the owners pulled the plug pretty early on because a) they never really did come to grips with the fact they played a large part in the horse getting hurt AND keeping the pertinent information from me even when I asked directly and b) because he'd been extremely expensive and they wanted some return. I actually suggested putting the horse down but they preferred to find him a "forever home". A highly bred, incredibly athletic, naturally sensitive, damaged horses. Instead they sent him to a trainer to be sold (probably with an incomplete history) who finally got some sort of deal done, probably because the horse was stunning to look at. Last I heard he'd been passed off to an amateur, hurt her very badly the first day, and they were looking at a "cowboy" to "fix" him. I really liked that horse and I prayed they'd put him down. He's going to have a crap life.

Or the one with serious track baggage that ended up with a complete novice because he looked like something out of a story book. Eventually my very experienced trainer bought the horse from her when she decided to sell and had it put down just so the whole cycle wouldn't start again.

I've known three with seizure disorders too. That can take many forms, including aggression.

Now, of course, there have been scores of success stories, some of which looked even worse than the tragic ones at first glance. The extent/nature of the behaviour is not an indicator of the root or "fixability" of the problem and every situation has to be assessed individually. The vast majority of horses with dangerous behaviours can be helped.

BUT two things count against success in this case.

One, Tia is very experienced with horses and behavioural issues - if she thinks something is wrong then it probably is. I rarely make such judgements over the internet but I feel fairly confident in this case.

Two, the owners won't do what is required.
 
QR -

Many many thanks to everyone who has taken the time and effort to contribute to this thread - I really appreciate it.

Unfortunately I have pretty much wiped my hands of this filly. For the mean time she is living with her mother in a separate field away from the other horses and boarders. This is the best we can do really. Perhaps over time a bond will develop, however I fear this will not be the case for as long as the mother is in the field with this filly.

If they are still here in the Spring, then another field will be made, again with 5ft fencing and this will be the time I split them both. Right now I can't as I can't risk an animal like this running wild all over my farm.

The horse is definitely not right; whether that be mental or physical I couldn't say at this point. She has a very big attitude and you can be scratching her quietly and calmly for half an hour and she will love you, BUT the moment you stop or move to an area which isn't itchy and she wants you to go back to the previous area, then her reaction is immediately to lunge at you or spin her backend on you. Most odd.

I do wonder if something went on during her long journey to here; I am not sure that anything bad happened to her though; I just think that she didn't like it and is rebelling against things she doesn't like. Who knows; and really this is the crux of the problem; it can never be fixed when the owner will not/cannot give me more information. To withhold the information she has already, suggests that this could be a long hard slog.

As I said in my follow up post - I do believe that this filly can be turned around but not while the situation stands as it does right now.

Anyway, thank you all.
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Not read all of the replies- you are such a helpful bunch but i dont have time

I think Tia you are a very patient yard owner at my yard they would of told her to take the horse away.
Personally I would tell the girl unless she gets the vet out to the horse you arent keeping it there as it sounds to me like the horse might be in pain. Especially if it has lumps on its jaw- my friend is a dentist and sees horses alot who are behaving terribly from tooth pain.
I also think the issue is that the filly has not been weaned and has been allowed to rule the roost. Also the very long journey has probably just about given her a nervous breakdown and perhaps she feels the only way to get food etc is to be aggressive. If it was mine I would want it separated into a small pen or preferably in the stable and do work with it daily, rewarding it for non aggressive behaviour but not tolerating any aggressiveness at all. The minute I noticed her start to turn I would loudly shout NO. I would also carry a peice of pipe and give her a good smack on the belly when she is aggressive. I think the horse needs time to be a horse in its own right and learn to trust humans. I would give it the acp to move it then take it from there.

Although TBH is the owner even interested in the horse ? It doesnt really sound like it?
p.s I wouldnt use a chifney i saw a horses jaw broken in one.
 
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