Hit an all time low with my horse :(

[ycbm]

This is the mare who is pretty wonky and has had a number of physical issues? IIRC you have spent a lot of time and effort in trying to get her sound and comfortable, but IMHO she is telling you that being ridden hurts.

She's had enough. This isn't a schooling or rider confidence issue.

Time to retire her.

ETA I've just checked back to make sure I was thinking of the same poster. This mare really has had a number of on going issues. Honestly, please stop riding her, or you will get badly hurt.

I agree with this, provided TP has accidentally missed a "stop" before the "riding".

You wrote this on November 5th

The vet has suggested box rest for 2 months, then 2 months in slightly bigger paddock and the last 2 months in regular paddock as he thinks she is bilaterally lame on the back but slightly worse on the left hind, then see how she is as we can't investigate further.

If that advice had been followed, then your mare would just being coming to the end of 6 months rest and be being reevaluated to see if she is sound to ride. I see that you decided not to box rest, (and I would probably have done the same), but your mare has been being investigated for lameness for well over two years now (that a vet thought should be treated with 6 months rest on restricted movement) and it sounds like she is ready for retirement.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I agree with this, provided TP has accidentally missed a "stop" before the "riding".

Edited now to add the 'stop' to 'stop riding'. Must proof read before posting.

 

[scats]

Sorry to hear this. Normally I would come up with a lot of suggestions and ideas but I know that you’ve had a lot of issues with this mare and I do wonder if there is some underlying pain problem that makes her hyper sensitive to her surroundings.

 

[Trouper]

A herd animal out on its own will always feel vulnerable - a nervous herd animal even more so. And a herd animal, possibly in some discomfort, alone will feel ridiculously vulnerable. If she has been completely cleared by the vet and there are no other issues then I would only hack her in company - sorry not what you want to hear, I know. But you are putting her to the test each time you hack and it can't be a happy experience for her either.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would retire her now, you seem to have been investigating various issues with her all the time you have had her and have never really got to the bottom of what is wrong. She is not a young horse and it isn't really surprising that she isn't completely sound. She is telling you as best she can that she is not truly enjoying her work now.
Often rider confidence can be affected by the horse's health, the rider doesn't know it but they are picking up vibes from the horse letting them know that the horse isn't comfortable.

 

[Michen]

This is why I am always so surprised when people don’t take spinning seriously. Often a form of napping and a really hard habit to break once they’ve started it.

Assuming she’s not in pain I’d hack her out in draw reins to try and catch the spin and get her out of the habit. Or have a pro do this. I think I put draw reins on my now 9 sharp spinning baby 5 times. Once I’d caught him doing it and corrected it he stopped the habit fairly quickly.

Bit diff as it wasn’t an ingrained habit, but could have been one fairly easily

 

[Dexter]

This is the mare who is pretty wonky and has had a number of physical issues? IIRC you have spent a lot of time and effort in trying to get her sound and comfortable, but IMHO she is telling you that being ridden hurts.

She's had enough. This isn't a schooling or rider confidence issue.

Time to retire her.

ETA I've just checked back to make sure I was thinking of the same poster. This 16yo mare really has had a number of on going issues. Honestly, please stop riding her, or you will get badly hurt.

This. Shes lame and her ridden behaviour is deteriorating. She is telling you shes uncomfortable. Did the vet clear her for galloping? I'd have thought something needing that much box rest would have come back to be a light hack, ie walk with the odd trot

 

[Jellymoon]

You sound like an amazing owner and you have tried everything. But I think it’s now time to think of yourself, your safety, and your happiness and enjoyment of life and riding. Also your mares happiness. She doesn’t sound like she’s enjoying being ridden, her stress levels are high, and it doesn’t really matter why, we will never really know.
She‘s 16, which back in the day was a reasonable age for some horses to retire, now we expect them to go on until 26! I would retire her. You deserve something you enjoy riding.

 

[Red-1]

I have experience with uncomfortable horses spinning. It seems that they are jangling on the edge with pain, and one small thing can send them over. Sadly, horses do try to look sound, it is hard wired in so they don't attract a predator.

If you have already exhausted all lines of investigation/treatment, I would retire her or PTS.

Riding is supposed to be fun.

 

[Ellietotz]

You may have already tried it but try giving her magnesium powder. I have a section D (and we all know what their like) shit himself at everything. Adding Magnesium to his feed did actually work just enough to steady him but not veg him out and loose his character. And it's not expensive give it time to work.

Yep, didn't work either.

 

[Ellietotz]

Just another thought. I know you said she hates schooling but you really need to get in the school and work through the little niggles, all of which should make her a nicer ride, and you more confident.

She does school well once I push her through it but hacking out is a completely different kettle of fish.

 

[Ellietotz]

This is the mare who is pretty wonky and has had a number of physical issues? IIRC you have spent a lot of time and effort in trying to get her sound and comfortable, but IMHO she is telling you that being ridden hurts.

She's had enough. This isn't a schooling or rider confidence issue.

Time to retire her.

ETA I've just checked back to make sure I was thinking of the same poster. This 16yo mare really has had a number of on going issues. Honestly, please stop riding her, or you will get badly hurt.

Yes, perhaps you are right.
The vet and physio have given her their approval to carry on though so it makes it hard to know if I'm just being dramatic or not!

 

[Ellietotz]

I would agree with scoping- all of the horses I’ve had with ulcers have been particularly spooky at times. Current horse (in profile pic) has had exhaustive ulcer treatment- my vet now thinks his ulcers are due to an underlying blood flow issue to his stomach, rather than pain elsewhere (he’s had lots of investigations). It explains why he’s always been a bit Jeckyll and Hyde. He’s immeasurably better on Gastrokind supplement as recommended by the vet.

She was scoped following impaction colic a month or so a go and was clear of ulcers.

 

[Ellietotz]

Lots of good advice above.

Jenku does a series called Scatterproof, which I found interesting as it teaches you to reward those moments of calmness when spook training.

But also maybe invest in an air jacket!! I have found it takes away some of the falling off fear which helps!

I've heard the canisters are expensive so I think my worry would go to having to replace those instead lol!

 

[Michen]

Yes, perhaps you are right.
The vet and physio have given her their approval to carry on though so it makes it hard to know if I'm just being dramatic or not!

I didn’t realise about the complex medical history when I posted.

No amount of vet or physio approval would over ride what I was actually feeling from my horse. That’s your only important opinion, really.

 

[Ellietotz]

Micklem does a breast plate with a strap over the wither. It's amazing because it's positioned almost exactly where your hands are so easy to grab without losing your balance. I also would recommend Acavallo gel out seat saver for sitting out spooks.

Good idea! Thank you.

 

[Tiddlypom]

She does school well once I push her through it

Please, please don't push her through it .

This is becoming a welfare issue - you insist on riding a horse who has multiple issues which the vets have never fully got to the bottom of.

She is behaving like a horse in pain. Stop riding. Retire her or PTS.

 

[Ellietotz]

Firstly have a cyber hug (()). You say she’s ok with a foot soldier so I’d probably go back to that if your confidence has taken a battering. I read something a while ago that people who have anxiety when riding, generally have anxiety in other areas of life too. You used to be confident, so has anything changed away from riding that has left you less able to cope with her dramatics?

On a practical note, I used to find it helpful to change pace often and have targets, so things like “I’ll trot for 10 strides, then walk for 10” or “I’ll extend the walk until that tree up ahead”. It just gives you something to focus on and both your brains busy.

I also rode with a Cavello Gel Out seat saver. It gave me confidence that I could stay on. My horse (now retired) was good as gold most of the time and seemed to wait until I was relaxed and not paying attention before he’d chuck in a spin, so it caught me unaware every time! He was insecure and he needed his rider to be a proper leader, then he felt much safer.

Yes, I do suffer with anxiety in general which definitely doesn't help. I worry about everything!
I have tried that as well but as you say, it's usually when you least expect it.

 

[Ellietotz]

I agree with this, provided TP has accidentally missed a "stop" before the "riding".

You wrote this on November 5th



If that advice had been followed, then your mare would just being coming to the end of 6 months rest and be being reevaluated to see if she is sound to ride. I see that you decided not to box rest, (and I would probably have done the same), but your mare has been being investigated for lameness for well over two years now (that a vet thought should be treated with 6 months rest on restricted movement) and it sounds like she is ready for retirement.
.

This is correct. She escaped after some idiot started a firework display in front of her stable.

However, I did get the vet and physio's approval that she was fine and ready to go so it makes this really hard.

 

[Ellietotz]

This. Shes lame and her ridden behaviour is deteriorating. She is telling you shes uncomfortable. Did the vet clear her for galloping? I'd have thought something needing that much box rest would have come back to be a light hack, ie walk with the odd trot

The vet said it as a last resort suggestion as he genuinely couldn't pin point anything of concern except for it just being structural. He said if she is happy which she looks to be with her ears forward wanting to zoom everywhere then to carry on. The physio says she is also in good shape with no areas of discomfort and believes she is moving well.

 

[Ellietotz]

This is the mare who is pretty wonky and has had a number of physical issues? IIRC you have spent a lot of time and effort in trying to get her sound and comfortable, but IMHO she is telling you that being ridden hurts.

She's had enough. This isn't a schooling or rider confidence issue.

Time to retire her.

ETA I've just checked back to make sure I was thinking of the same poster. This 16yo mare really has had a number of on going issues. Honestly, please stop riding her, or you will get badly hurt.

Yes, that's the one.
I just find it really hard because she has been xrayed all over except for her neck, she has had suspensories scanned, scopes, all of the PSSM tests. This is why the vet says it is structural and there is nothing to show that would be causing her any pain. The physio doesn't find any discomfort either.
This spooking behaviour has never changed, the spinning has just seemed to set instead of the usual shying.
I really just don't know.

ETA: I've just realised I responded to this already!

 

[ycbm]

The vet said it as a last resort suggestion as he genuinely couldn't pin point anything of concern except for it just being structural. He said if she is happy which she looks to be with her ears forward wanting to zoom everywhere then to carry on. The physio says she is also in good shape with no areas of discomfort and believes she is moving well.

She won't school and she doesn't like hacking. She is trying to tell you the physio is wrong.
.

 

[Michen]

Yes, that's the one.
I just find it really hard because she has been xrayed all over except for her neck, she has had suspensories scanned, scopes, all of the PSSM tests. This is why the vet says it is structural and there is nothing to show that would be causing her any pain.
This spooking behaviour has never changed, the spinning has just seemed to set instead of the usual shying.
I really just don't know.

I don’t understand. What is your vet saying is “structural”. Is she lame on a specific leg?

What does he even mean by structural?

 

[Ellietotz]

I don’t understand. What is your vet saying is “structural”. Is she lame on a specific leg?

What does he even mean by structural?

Basically that it's her conformation that makes her move unusually rather than an actual lameness issue.

 

[Michen]

Also to add despite the diagnostics it could be a million other things that could be next to impossible to diagnose. Mine last year for example, disuniting over a fence. Even a x pole. But otherwise in amazing health.

We managed to diagnose a super rare ligament injury purely due to nerve blocking whilst jumping him, enabling us to isolate the area and then scan. We were so lucky to have been able to do that tbh. My vet was unconvinced we’d ever get such a clear, obvious block.

X rays and scans don’t rule out pain unfortunately. Plus, it sounds really not fun for either of you. What’s the point?

 

[Ceifer]

I’m afraid I’m with all the people who are recommending retiring the mare.
You sound like an amazing owner who has investigated all possible medical avenues and have really listened to your mares concerns.
I think with vets, it’s something I’ve learnt that they aren’t gods. I know that sounds condescending and I really respect my vet. But put yourself in your vets shoes, he can’t find anything wrong despite all tests so the only thing for him to say is to carry on. He doesn’t know the horse like you do. You know there’s something wrong.
Also selfishly, you aren’t enjoying riding her, being blunt - this isn’t going to get any better. Why continue to battle?

 

[Ellietotz]

I’m afraid I’m with all the people who are recommending retiring the mare.
You sound like an amazing owner who has investigated all possible medical avenues and have really listened to your mares concerns.
I think with vets, it’s something I’ve learnt that they aren’t gods. I know that sounds condescending and I really respect my vet. But put yourself in your vets shoes, he can’t find anything wrong despite all tests so the only thing for him to say is to carry on. He doesn’t know the horse like you do. You know there’s something wrong.
Also selfishly, you aren’t enjoying riding her, being blunt - this isn’t going to get any better. Why continue to battle?

Yes, you're right and without spending thousands more on bone scans, I don't think anyone will ever really know if it's structural or not.
However, the thing that gets me is her attitude out hacking, aside from the spooking, she looks like she loves it, she is so forward going, any hill she sees she wants to go fast though I don't always let her obviously but I mean she is so keen which makes me so confused with it all.

 

[Red-1]

Yes, you're right and without spending thousands more on bone scans, I don't think anyone will ever really know if it's structural or not.
However, the thing that gets me is her attitude out hacking, aside from the spooking, she looks like she loves it, she is so forward going, any hill she sees she wants to go fast though I don't always let her obviously but I mean she is so keen which makes me so confused with it all.

I love running, only it hurts. Before it hurts, I look like I am enjoying myself. Once it hurts I am grumpy. I can still be enjoying aspects of the run, but it still hurts.

 

[DabDab]

Yes, perhaps you are right.
The vet and physio have given her their approval to carry on though so it makes it hard to know if I'm just being dramatic or not!

If she is noticeably unhappy in her work then no you are definitely not being dramatic.

Whether you/vet/physio can find something wrong or not, making any effort at training a horse where there is a question mark over their health is doomed to fail (particularly when she is very obviously unhappy and on edge).

 

[Michen]

Yes, you're right and without spending thousands more on bone scans, I don't think anyone will ever really know if it's structural or not.
However, the thing that gets me is her attitude out hacking, aside from the spooking, she looks like she loves it, she is so forward going, any hill she sees she wants to go fast though I don't always let her obviously but I mean she is so keen which makes me so confused with it all.

I don’t think it’s confusing at all. Horses are in general genuine and how many horses even dog lame do you see walking around with their ears back? It’s natural for them to prick their ears and look where they are going. Mine would do that with a leg dangling off. He has arthritis in his hocks too and is currently flexed and trotted up by my vet every 8 weeks because I wouldn’t know if he was deteriorating- he doesn’t tell me under saddle.

I really don’t think that a horse whose so angry in the school can possibly not been in discomfort somewhere unless she’s been soured which I highly doubt given your love and attention to her.

We have to add together the clues, she’s giving plenty. I think you’ll feel relief when you make this decision eventually, even though it will hurt like hell in the mean time.