Hit an all time low with my horse :(

[Ellietotz]

I love running, only it hurts. Before it hurts, I look like I am enjoying myself. Once it hurts I am grumpy. I can still be enjoying aspects of the run, but it still hurts.

This is very true. Just because she enjoys it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I suppose I'd like to think she wouldn't want to do it if it caused her pain.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Yes, you're right and without spending thousands more on bone scans, I don't think anyone will ever really know if it's structural or not.
However, the thing that gets me is her attitude out hacking, aside from the spooking, she looks like she loves it, she is so forward going, any hill she sees she wants to go fast though I don't always let her obviously but I mean she is so keen which makes me so confused with it all.

It sounds to me as if she is just keen to get it over with, tbh, like those horses who rush their jumps because they are in pain.

 

[Ellietotz]

If she is noticeably unhappy in her work then no you are definitely not being dramatic.

Whether you/vet/physio can find something wrong or not, making any effort at training a horse where there is a question mark over their health is doomed to fail (particularly when she is very obviously unhappy and on edge).

She isn't unhappy out hacking, she is so keen that it is an effort to keep her steady. This is what I'm finding difficult as stupid as that may be.

 

[Ellietotz]

I don’t think it’s confusing at all. Horses are in general genuine and how many horses even dog lame do you see walking around with their ears back? It’s natural for them to prick their ears and look where they are going. Mine would do that with a leg dangling off. He has arthritis in his hocks too and is currently flexed and trotted up by my vet every 8 weeks because I wouldn’t know if he was deteriorating- he doesn’t tell me under saddle.

I really don’t think that a horse whose so angry in the school can possibly not been in discomfort somewhere unless she’s been soured which I highly doubt given your love and attention to her.

We have to add together the clues, she’s giving plenty. I think you’ll feel relief when you make this decision eventually, even though it will hurt like hell in the mean time.

True.
Definitely not soured, I rarely school her and she despises being told what to do at first. For example, she will walk fine and will choose to trot and canter but god forbid I ask her too, she will put her ears back and do it begrudgingly. Though as soon as she thinks she will be popping a small jump, she gets really full of it.

I have to add that there may be a bit of peer pressure from people on the yard too that I'll likely be told I'm being stupid and there is nothing wrong with her and if there is something wrong, she wouldn't want to gallop everywhere.

As a natural worrier, anything people say will sit in my mind and I don't want to feel like I'm doing the wrong thing so the comments like this make me feel like I am being stupid about deciding to retire. It is only from people that I see in person just to add as I can't hide from them!

 

[Michen]

I think you are being a little nieve (understandably as we all want to hope for the best, I adopt this approach too sometimes ?) Horses will still walk to their field even if it hurts. Many will still jump even if it hurts. Mine was pinging 1.15 oxers and in the best form of his life, rider, instructor and even the eagle eyes of HHO couldn’t see a problem but there was one.

You cannot rely on a forward movement and pricked ears to determine she is happy under saddle, when there’s other signs telling you something else. The fact she’s so agitated in the school would really worry me. No comfortable horse should be behaving like your mare is in the school. If she can’t trot a few laps in a gentle frame then bar a deep rooted mental issue she is in some sort of discomfort somewhere and that will likely still hurt out hacking.

Massive hugs, I fully appreciate how soul destroying it is. Xx

 

[AmyMay]

I have to add that there may be a bit of peer pressure too that I'll likely be told I'm being stupid and there is nothing wrong with her and if there is something wrong, she wouldn't want to gallop everywhere.

Well, to be fair, you’re getting a bit of peer pressure here too....

But at the end of the day you have to be safe, and you both need to be happy. So listen to your gut feeling as well as those you trust to give good advice.

 

[Winters100]

She won't school and she doesn't like hacking. She is trying to tell you the physio is wrong.
.

I'm afraid I am firmly with the others who say that she should not be ridden. She is trying to tell you this, and next time she might tell you in a way that leaves you injured.

We have probably all been in situations, with our own or with our animals' health, where we have known that something is wrong, but that it has not been apparent to a doctor or a vet. Of course for us it is easy, we can just make another appointment or find another doctor, but our animals are totally reliant on us to listen to them and protect them.

Vets and physios come to our animals and spend a short time with them, we see them every day, and for much longer.

You sound like you really care about her, but I think that you need to remember that just because you are told that you can ride her does not mean that you should. And those who say that wanting to gallop means she does not have pain are wrong - for me this would be a massive red flag.

I really hope that you will now let her retire or have her PTS. While PTS would not be my choice in this situation there is nothing wrong with it if the alternative is being asked to do things that cause her pain.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

True.
Definitely not soured, I rarely school her and she despises being told what to do at first. For example, she will walk fine and will choose to trot and canter but god forbid I ask her too, she will put her ears back and do it begrudgingly. Though as soon as she thinks she will be popping a small jump, she gets really full of it.

I have to add that there may be a bit of peer pressure too that I'll likely be told I'm being stupid and there is nothing wrong with her and if there is something wrong, she wouldn't want to gallop everywhere.

As a natural worrier, anything people say will sit in my mind and I don't want to feel like I'm doing the wrong thing so the comments like this make me feel like I am being stupid about deciding to retire. It is only from people that I see in person just to add as I can't hide from them!

Other people don't know your horse like you do.
You are not describing a happy horse, you are describing a horse that is living in a state of high alert and is frightened by just about everything that she sees on hacks.

 

[Ellietotz]

Well, to be fair, you’re getting a bit of peer pressure here too....

But at the end of the day you have to be safe, and you both need to be happy. So listen to your gut feeling as well as those you trust to give good advice.

Yes, I added that the peer pressure is from people on the yard that make me feel stupid if I do retire her.

 

[sport horse]

I would send her to a professional and see whether she behaves the same after being with them for a couple of weeks. You are now, quite understandably, worried when you ride her. She will be picking this up and it could well be making her worse. Once you see how she is after a few weeks with someone else then you can begin to decide how to proceed.
Remember you do this for fun and it sounds as though you are getting precious little of that at the moment and I am sure it is also costing you a fair bit of money! Good luck

 

[AmyMay]

Yes, I added that the peer pressure is from people on the yard that make me feel stupid if I do retire her.

It has absolutely nothing to do with them.

 

[Regandal]

I would try 2 things before retiring her, first, the saddle. Are you 100% sure that it fits? A saddle that is tight on the withers can make a horse run, without being tight enough to cause obvious soreness.
Second, I’d try Succeed or Equishure for a month in case it’s hindgut.

 

[TPO]

She isn't unhappy out hacking, she is so keen that it is an effort to keep her steady. This is what I'm finding difficult as stupid as that may be.

A happy horse doesnt do what you've said that your horse does in post no.1 or what you've posted in numerous other posts and threads.

Every thread that you have posted has overwhelmingly suggested retiring your horse because she is displaying pain behaviours and moving badly (in the videos you posted). Each time a new thread appears in which you have continued riding and are still having the same issues.

I'm unsure what outcome you were expecting in this thread posting about more of the same behaviours. On all previous threads you have ignored the majority opinion and continued regardless. I dont think this thread will yield a different outcome.

I appreciate that you can't afford two horses and you want to ride but this mare appears to have been trying her hardest for a very long time to show you that she isnt comfortable.

It may be worthwhile educating yourself about equine behaviour and that of prey animals. Then you will feel empowered to answer those who are stupid enough to say "she wouldn't want to gallop". If those are peers/friends then you need better company.

I understand that it's an unpleasant thing to be facing but ultimately we all got into ownership because we loved horses. WE are responsible for their welfare. This has been going on for a considerable length of time.

I'm not saying this applies to OP but I've been in neighbouring stables when physios have been advising owners not to ride and to start groundwork rehab to then have the same owners retell other liveries that the horse is fine but just to add some groundwork in. I've heard vets say that they wouldnt advise but can't stop an owner riding and the owner say vet said they didnt have to stop riding. Unless a therapist or vet puts in riding that a lame/sore horse should continue ridden work for rehab I'd find it hard to believe. Galloping rarely features in any rehab plan.

I wouldnt be using gadgets or a stronger rider to force her through this. Perhaps those suggesting that can look back to find the videos and see for themselves. That would be the ultimate cruelty.

I know this will probably read badly but that isnt the tone it has been written in. I do just feel for your mare.

Having animals isnt easy but we can only do our best and put them first

 

[Wishfilly]

Just to pick up on something you mention in your first post, you say you can't afford to buy another, but you could afford to keep it. Could you put the "keep" money aside until you could afford to buy another? That might make it easier to make a decision about retirement etc for your mare?

I'd also maybe consider a second opinion from a different vet?

 

[Ellietotz]

I would try 2 things before retiring her, first, the saddle. Are you 100% sure that it fits? A saddle that is tight on the withers can make a horse run, without being tight enough to cause obvious soreness.
Second, I’d try Succeed or Equishure for a month in case it’s hindgut.

Yes, saddle definitely fits, plenty of room to get my hand in at the shoulder when I'm on, saddle sits level so not too wide or too narrow.
I had her on Coopers Gut Support for 3 months some time a go now so I can't remember if the spooking had stopped or not.
The spooking is not always there so it is hard to tell if whatever I'm trying next is working or not. Some days she is so chilled out, seemingly happy plodding along and doesn't bat an eyelid at anything. Then others, she will have a meltdown at one thing and the rest of the ride will be hopeless.

 

[scats]

The instinct for a horse to run with the herd or flee from danger won’t disappear, even if they are lame or in pain. A lame or uncomfortable horse will often gallop about with their field mates- that instinct is so ingrained into them.
I generally roll my eyes when people announce their horse couldn’t possibly be in pain if it’s cantering around the field.

I had to make a very similar decision with 2 horses. One had done a collateral ligament as a 5 year old and developed ring and side bone as a result, and the other had navicular and a DDFT injury. I got them both ‘sound’ from a veterinary point of view, but mentally they did not come back the same. One became prone to broncing fits and the other so spooky that it became utterly dangerous. Previously he had been pretty much bombproof, but he started 180degree spinning at very minor issues. In both cases, after numerous checks, I decided that they were just unable to stand up to any ridden work anymore (including hacking). I retired both, one aged 8 and the other 11.
Heartbreaking, but it’s the game we’re in, sadly. I wasn’t having fun and they clearly weren’t having fun.

 

[Ellietotz]

A happy horse doesnt do what you've said that your horse does in post no.1 or what you've posted in numerous other posts and threads.

Every thread that you have posted has overwhelmingly suggested retiring your horse because she is displaying pain behaviours and moving badly (in the videos you posted). Each time a new thread appears in which you have continued riding and are still having the same issues.

I'm unsure what outcome you were expecting in this thread posting about more of the same behaviours. On all previous threads you have ignored the majority opinion and continued regardless. I dont think this thread will yield a different outcome.

I appreciate that you can't afford two horses and you want to ride but this mare appears to have been trying her hardest for a very long time to show you that she isnt comfortable.

It may be worthwhile educating yourself about equine behaviour and that of prey animals. Then you will feel empowered to answer those who are stupid enough to say "she wouldn't want to gallop". If those are peers/friends then you need better company.

I understand that it's an unpleasant thing to be facing but ultimately we all got into ownership because we loved horses. WE are responsible for their welfare. This has been going on for a considerable length of time.

I'm not saying this applies to OP but I've been in neighbouring stables when physios have been advising owners not to ride and to start groundwork rehab to then have the same owners retell other liveries that the horse is fine but just to add some groundwork in. I've heard vets say that they wouldnt advise but can't stop an owner riding and the owner say vet said they didnt have to stop riding. Unless a therapist or vet puts in riding that a lame/sore horse should continue ridden work for rehab I'd find it hard to believe. Galloping rarely features in any rehab plan.

I wouldnt be using gadgets or a stronger rider to force her through this. Perhaps those suggesting that can look back to find the videos and see for themselves. That would be the ultimate cruelty.

I know this will probably read badly but that isnt the tone it has been written in. I do just feel for your mare.

Having animals isnt easy but we can only do our best and put them first

Sorry, when I'm saying she is happy, I'm trying to say it with a meaning that she seems happy from a visual point of view. It's hard to come across properly in text.
I can't say if she is genuinely happy or not, only by visual appearance as it were.
I completely understand that they are prey animals and how they behave when vulnerable. She was awful when she had ulcers and I don't blame her. As I suffer from anxiety however, having other people on the yard who see her everyday who say these things just makes me worry and pressured into not retiring.
The vet and physio have seen all of those videos and I have in writing from them to carry on as normal be it the right thing to do or not. Her movement since being in work and doing in hand raised pole work has gotten so much better than it was. I spend lots of time in hand doing small tight circles for her hind legs to cross over, backing up, stepping over raised poles and going up and down hills, all in hand. We finish off every time with hamstring stretches, forelimb stretches and normal carrot stretches.
I do so much for her because I love her to bits. I'm not hoping for another outcome on retiring or not, I appreciate everyone's honesty and I hope people can understand how my mind is working too.

 

[Ellietotz]

Just to pick up on something you mention in your first post, you say you can't afford to buy another, but you could afford to keep it. Could you put the "keep" money aside until you could afford to buy another? That might make it easier to make a decision about retirement etc for your mare?

I'd also maybe consider a second opinion from a different vet?

Yes I could start saving.
The current vet was the second opinion. The last one said it was behavioral and nothing was wrong too.

 

[Ellietotz]

I think you are being a little nieve (understandably as we all want to hope for the best, I adopt this approach too sometimes ?) Horses will still walk to their field even if it hurts. Many will still jump even if it hurts. Mine was pinging 1.15 oxers and in the best form of his life, rider, instructor and even the eagle eyes of HHO couldn’t see a problem but there was one.

You cannot rely on a forward movement and pricked ears to determine she is happy under saddle, when there’s other signs telling you something else. The fact she’s so agitated in the school would really worry me. No comfortable horse should be behaving like your mare is in the school. If she can’t trot a few laps in a gentle frame then bar a deep rooted mental issue she is in some sort of discomfort somewhere and that will likely still hurt out hacking.

Massive hugs, I fully appreciate how soul destroying it is. Xx

Thank you. Xx

The thing about her in the school is that she goes lovely when she has chosen to trot and canter. If I ask her to, the ears go back at me and it is done begrudgingly. This is why the first vet said it was behavioral. He watched her hack up and down the lane too and came to this conclusion.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Have you seen the descriptions of equine facial expressions of horses in pain? I hope someone will be able to point you in the right direction to find this, I know it has been posted on here before - you might be able to search for it. Some of the signs are very subtle

 

[DabDab]

She isn't unhappy out hacking, she is so keen that it is an effort to keep her steady. This is what I'm finding difficult as stupid as that may be.

When you first hack out newly backed horses (if you take them out alone first), they will generally have head up, ears pricked and be marching. And then gradually over time they learn to trust and relax. The speed and the pricked ears is more to do with tension than willingness.

Do you think that could be what you are seeing in your mare?

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm sorry you're struggling, Ellietotz. It does sound to me like it is time to retire her. I know that is really hard.

Just for my two pence I really don't think very forward going to the point of rushing and not wanting to slow down horse is actually a comfortable, happy horse. A comfortable horse marches forwards with a steady swinging gate but is happy to slow down and stand still when asked. A rushing, overly forwards horse is, in my view, probably trying to "escape" discomfort in the hind limbs.

 

[Ellietotz]

When you first hack out newly backed horses (if you take them out alone first), they will generally have head up, ears pricked and be marching. And then gradually over time they learn to trust and relax. The speed and the pricked ears is more to do with tension than willingness.

Do you think that could be what you are seeing in your mare?

No, I don't think so.
She is usually chilled out most of the ride or at least depending on if we have come across a pig or something that will just write off the ride. She is happy to walk forwards but not marching and alert, just normal pace. Can ride on the buckle when we are walking and she is calm and she just plods along.
When she is on high alert, the head is up and she is moving as you say but most of the time, the head is level and relaxed. She will look up at things and then go back to being like this. The spooking spins are very hit and miss. Some days are completely fine and the ride has been good with no issues. Others will depend on what has set her on edge to begin with, being a pregnant pony or a pig etc. After that, everything becomes scary. It is an effort to keep her steady on rides where she does think she is going to gallop but if we don't do those, it's usually okay depending on if she is feeling full of it or not.
I never need to kick her on though.
It's so hard to explain as it can vary so much.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I am just feeling so low.

I have completely lost my confidence and trust in her due to the spooking. After 5 years of owning her, this has always been a problem and it's never really been a comfortable ride though when we had a little gallop or canter, I could trust she wouldn't do anything stupid, not at least until we slowed up a bit that she'd start looking at things and come to a bouncing uncomfortable stop.

She used to go through phases of just shying from things to slamming on the brakes and spinning which were the worst and apparently this time, she prefers spooking this way at pretty much everything nowadays.

Since the beginning of the year when this type of spooking started again, a few occasions nearly had me off and since then, I just don't enjoy riding her as it has knocked my confidence. We only hack, she goes out fine on her own with no napping but she is scared of everything. Some days will be absolutely fine though, no spooking and other days, we are slamming on brakes and spinning at sticks and different coloured patches of grass.

This spinning doesn't just happen at walk and trot either, it can happen from canter to top speed which she has done.

I came off today as we were cantering up a hill, I saw the dog on the right so I was pulling up, she obviously didn't see it so she braked and span ending up facing back down the hill. I was basically off so managed to land on my feet and keep hold of her. She'd scared herself I think as she wanted to walk the rest of the way which was very unusual for her.

I just don't know what I am supposed to do now. She has too many issues to be sold and I love her so much. Realistically, I can't afford to buy another either. I can afford to keep another but the buying is the issue and I don't want a loan particularly.

I don't think a calmer would make any difference at this point, I have tried tonnes, she was doing it even when I was confident too and I used to just roll my eyes and carry on. I'm focused on riding her forwards, urging her on when I feel her hesitating at god knows what. I went out today feeling confident but ended up coming back feeling miserable again.

I just want to be able to get on and have a nice ride without worrying that she will spin. I don't trust her anymore.

The last few rides prior to today were actually okay, we were only doing short routes with limited option to what we could do and there was no spooking but I'm not sure I'd enjoy just sticking to this, I don't know. It could have also just been a one off but if not, that is probably the only option if I want to ride is to only pick easy limited routes. If we do this for a while spook free, would it give her confidence or am I just kidding myself?

Riding out in company makes no difference to the spooking really. She is a tiny bit better but it's still there.

I've tried desensitising in the school, she has no issues with this. Walking out in hand is also fine because she likes to follow people so she doesn't feel "on her own" as such.

She is 16 years old and Arab x TB x Warmblood.

Sorry for the whinge, I just need to get it off my chest.

Thank you if you got this far.

OMG I am going through similar and did, I had my mare 6 years now, I tried all the magnesium calmers which made her worse as she is mag sensitive hence issue I am having now after 6 months box along with her scared of me. I have her on on Cool Core bomproofing and it did make her an enjoyable ride. For me though I lost confidence in my self due to injuries so i take CBD oil and it REALLY does help me.

 

[Ellietotz]

I'm sorry you're struggling, Ellietotz. It does sound to me like it is time to retire her. I know that is really hard.

Just for my two pence I really don't think very forward going to the point of rushing and not wanting to slow down horse is actually a comfortable, happy horse. A comfortable horse marches forwards with a steady swinging gate but is happy to slow down and stand still when asked. A rushing, overly forwards horse is, in my view, probably trying to "escape" discomfort in the hind limbs.

Thank you.
It is so hard to explain how she is out riding. She doesn't rush or want to go full speed all the time. It really depends on the route we are going.
She can go from being a plod to being full of it. A lot of the time we will wander out on a loose rein, have a trot and a canter and all is good. Depending on where the canter is, if it is somewhere she has been galloped before then it is difficult to keep her steady but if we avoid these areas, it can be quite a nice ride. Again though, it depends if she has seen something scary at the start and she is then just on edge for the rest of the ride.

 

[Bellaboo18]

My understanding is from your previous posts this mare has been in 3(?) quite nasty accidents, one involving a car hitting her?
I'm normally one to shout pain but I'd say her history is enough to make riding extremely stressful for her pain or no pain.

I'd definitely retire her. You clearly love her, I can't see much pleasure in continuing for either of you.

 

[Ellietotz]

My understanding is from your previous posts this mare has been in 3(?) quite nasty accidents, one involving a car hitting her?
I'm normally one to shout pain but I'd say her history is enough to make riding extremely stressful for her pain or no pain.

I'd definitely retire her. You clearly love her, I can't see much pleasure in continuing for either of you.

Yes, I've been told a car ran over her hind pasterns, she flipped out in a trailer as a yearling and got stuck over the breast bar and she panicked when driving once pulling a cart downhill for the first time, ended up through a fence.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Yes, I've been told a car ran over her hind pasterns, she flipped out in a trailer as a yearling and got stuck over the breast bar and she panicked when driving once pulling a cart downhill for the first time, ended up through a fence.

Well then, I'd give yourself a break, thats a lot to unpick!

 

[Tiddlypom]

I would send her to a professional and see whether she behaves the same after being with them for a couple of weeks. You are now, quite understandably, worried when you ride her.

Op, whatever you do, do not take this advice .

A pro can often push a horse on through pain.

Your mare is in pain.

 

[Flame_]

I've just had a look at the other threads and it does sound like a lot of knowledgeable posters could see significant unsoundness in your videos.

When you first have mystery issues you sort the saddle, sort the feet and get some physio. This solves things or it doesn't.

If it doesn't then you get a pro for a little attitude adjustment and it solves things or it doesn't.

If it doesn't then you get a vet. They might diagnose one or more things but ultimately you rest and or treat the horse and this solves things or it doesn't.

If it doesn't then you try considerately getting the horse in managed work hoping to strengthen muscles and things up, to a level the horse can comfortably keep working.

This sadly does not always work. Sometimes horses just stay lame and/or miserable and there will be a multitude of experts willing to take your money to keep repeating all of the above steps in various ways but it really does sound like you are going round in circles. It's not fair or sensible for you or your horse to keep putting yourself through this cycle of frustration, discomfort and disappointment. It's so sad when you can't get a good horse right, or at least right enough for a moderate workload, but at some point, give yourself permission to stop trying, whether by retiring or pts.