Meredith
riding reluctantly into the sunset
If I remember correctly the poo was just mixed in the feed. I expect the feed was dampened at the very least.
I expect if tried today it would be much more scientific.
Hit an all time low with my horse :(
- Thread starter Ellietotz
- Start date
If I remember correctly the poo was just mixed in the feed. I expect the feed was dampened at the very least.
I expect if tried today it would be much more scientific.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
poo donors/transplants are things for lots of species, including us.
McFluff
Well-Known Member
Ester beat me to it. This is a thing in humans too. Being studied in connection with obesity. DIY is not recommended though!!! (Boak)
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I've done poo transplants on rabbis, guinea pigs and Chinchillas - you take some dropping (or caecotroph) from the healthy animal, smash up with warm water, and syringe down. Sometimes I add a pinch of fenugreek as an appetite stimulant when syringe feeding anyone who's reluctant to eat. It can be really useful after surgeries or bouts of gut stasis or anytime anti biotics have been given 
Dyllymoo
Well-Known Member
I'm so sorry you have experienced some awful bullying about this. I suffered from extreme bullying when I PTS J last December and its still going on (just less intensely now).
I feel frustrated for you that you haven't found an "exact" issue and that you feel people are angry at you, I think its just something that people feel strongly about as lets face it, we all love horses, its why we are on this forum. Its an emotive issue and none more so than for you, as she is your mare who you clearly adore.
Unfortunately on a public forum you will get advice if you post something like this. Everyone on here gave me the advice to get J checked as it was serious after looking at his trip video... I was gobsmacked and felt somewhat rail roaded but looking back they only had J's interests at heart, and wanted me to make sure there was nothing wrong.
Sorry you are having such a tough time
I feel frustrated for you that you haven't found an "exact" issue and that you feel people are angry at you, I think its just something that people feel strongly about as lets face it, we all love horses, its why we are on this forum. Its an emotive issue and none more so than for you, as she is your mare who you clearly adore.
Unfortunately on a public forum you will get advice if you post something like this. Everyone on here gave me the advice to get J checked as it was serious after looking at his trip video... I was gobsmacked and felt somewhat rail roaded but looking back they only had J's interests at heart, and wanted me to make sure there was nothing wrong.
Sorry you are having such a tough time
Ellietotz
Well-Known Member
I'm so sorry to hear about J, I didn't know you had him PTS. I remember talking to you about it. I'm sorry to hear that you've had a negative response from it too.
I didn't expect having a conversation to pass around different views would cause such backlash but it is what it is. I'm not disputing the advice either, it's the rudeness, accusations and assumptions that are not needed.
I've done a full overhaul of my facebook now, I don't need to be seeing those comments from people that shouldn't matter anyway. Perhaps they didn't know that the person's post they were commenting on were Facebook friends with me but even so.
Dyllymoo
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Unfortunately he had grade 2 wobblers and after 2 vet opinions it was deemed the kindest thing for him. Unfortunately pretty much everyone told me I was selfish and vile and I did it because I couldn't be bothered to retire him.
I did the same as you, overhauled Facebook and just ignored people who really dont deserve your time.
I really hope you are ok
Ellietotz
Well-Known Member
That's so unkind and insensitive of people to say that.
I'm sorry you've had to go through it on top of it all. You listened to your vet and you did the right thing.Thank you, I'm okay. I hope you are too. X
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I am very sorry that this happened to you, but please can I point out that you got full support on here for your decision to pts from pretty much everyone.
Annagain
Well-Known Member
Dyllymoo
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean on here, I meant facebook as was referenced in the OP's post about comments. And also face to face. As I also mentioned people were only looking out for the best interests of J (and ultimately me) when every comment was "Vets... now", it doesn't make it sting any less at the time though, that's all.
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Oops , missed the typo in that ????? I meant rabbits!! Long eared hoppy fluffy things!! ????
Elf On A Shelf
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From everything that you have written on this thread and in the past you have clearly looked at just about every single option and your horse still isn't right. She is becoming far too dangerous to ride and is clearly unhappy in work. There is nothing wrong with having a field ornament if they are happy to eat, sleep, fart, repeat and are in no pain doing so. Heck I have a bunch of free loaders here! Gray has been fully retired due to melanomas and they are the ones I can see. He is fat, happy and very well with himself and I hope he is for a long time yet but at the same time the day he starts to look run down I know the melanomas will have taken over and he will be pts with dignity rather than kept going for my sake. He deserves that at the very least for all he has done for me over the last 13 years. I really don't care that I don't ride him. I could but he isn't happy about it because he has a melanoma in the dent between his cheek and his neck join just below the ear. I would never ask him to do something that he is uncomfortable doing because I know he is saying no for a reason.
She is your horse and you can obviously chose to do with her as you please, ride her, retire her, shoot her, spend more money on vets etc. You asked for people's opinions and you have got plenty of food for thought to do what you think is best for the animal.
She is your horse and you can obviously chose to do with her as you please, ride her, retire her, shoot her, spend more money on vets etc. You asked for people's opinions and you have got plenty of food for thought to do what you think is best for the animal.
Slightlyconfused
Go away, I'm reading
Not always, friend retired her av med dressage horse due to unpredictable spooking. Had the works done, diet change, bloods everything. Maxed the insurance and two credit cards before she just called it a day and retired her.
Just because the vets didn't find anything didn't mean that someone wasn't wrong. It just meant science was not advanced enough to find it, yet.
Unpredictable behaviour is a valid reason to retire a horse.
Ellietotz
Well-Known Member
This is a good point and yes, I would retire for extreme spooking alone, generally speaking, if there weren't an underlying cause because it's dangerous.
However, if I did get her to a point with back to basics feeds, prebiotic etc and the spooking stops, like it has before, am I still in the wrong for carrying on? It doesn't change her lifelong way of going after all and of course, I'd have to ride to know if the spooking wasn't happening anymore.
(Theoretical question, not to be taken as a decision maker or change of mind.)
Slightlyconfused
Go away, I'm reading
Are you sure the spooking is a sperate issue to her way of going/current issues?
If you get her to a point of not doing the spooking again and then have a small amount of good times with her and it comes back does that mean the spooking is a sperate issue or is a symptom of a current unfound issue?
Take one of my horses, he was intermittently lame/locked a back leg. Resting helped but as soon as we started light work he was fine, pushed harder was a bit off then went harder and then the locking up and lameness became apparent and the vet in this instance found the cause (stifle ligament injury) but if no cause had been found and he continued on this circle of fine when rested and slowly brought back into work then slowly progressing to getting worse then it would be an answer for me that ridden work wasn't for him.
Maybe she is find when rested, fine when slowly coming back into work and pressure is off but as soon as things start getting more pressured then that's where the spooking comes back into play as its a symptom of either a physical pain which can't be found and she is running on being in constant pain (and trust me as someone who is in constant pain with varying levels is exhausting and you get more anxious the worse it gets) so the spooking gets worse? Or a mental anxiety that can't be fixed?
Again all theoretical but it's a different way of looking at it.
For me spooking is always apart of the issue that gets overlooked too much.
EllenJay
Well-Known Member
It depends if with the spooking issues gone the lameness disappears. On the last video you posted, she was clearly unsound, but if sorting her gut sorts the lameness then of course you can bring her back into work. But if the gut issues only address the spooky issues then No, the horse is still not right.
It’s so difficult when to say enough is enough, especially when keeping a horse you can’t ride costs as much as keeping a ridden horse.
So many of us have been there. You just need to make a decision for what is best for your horse. Probably you also need to stop looking for a miracle cure - without being cruel - but there probably isn’t one. It’s very hard to let go of your dreams and way of life. Good luck
It’s so difficult when to say enough is enough, especially when keeping a horse you can’t ride costs as much as keeping a ridden horse.
So many of us have been there. You just need to make a decision for what is best for your horse. Probably you also need to stop looking for a miracle cure - without being cruel - but there probably isn’t one. It’s very hard to let go of your dreams and way of life. Good luck
Winters100
Well-Known Member
OP I understand that this is clearly a situation that you are finding very difficult. However I think that with a horse this age who is not sound, and who is displaying this behaviour, I would personally retire whether or not a vet could find the cause. For me putting the horse through ridden work to see if spooking was better would just not be fair.
We all have different opinions about our horses, and of course it is for you to do as you see fit. My own course of action would be to offer retirement and keep the horse. However if riding is such a priority for you then, on the basis of what you have written, I would feel that PTS and use the money that you would spend on vets and keep to have another horse who will not suffer pain when ridden, to be a kinder option.
Of course, as you rightly say, we have not seen the horse, but on the basis of what you have written and the videos of an unsound horse I would personally not want to ride.
We all have different opinions about our horses, and of course it is for you to do as you see fit. My own course of action would be to offer retirement and keep the horse. However if riding is such a priority for you then, on the basis of what you have written, I would feel that PTS and use the money that you would spend on vets and keep to have another horse who will not suffer pain when ridden, to be a kinder option.
Of course, as you rightly say, we have not seen the horse, but on the basis of what you have written and the videos of an unsound horse I would personally not want to ride.
Ellietotz
Well-Known Member
I wish I knew honestly if it was related or not though it being related seems to have the winning vote here.
From what I can remember over the years, the spooking was pretty much non existent in the summer months when she is ridden more but I always put it down to it being warmer. Worse in Spring and usually again once the clocks change so riding once or twice a week instead but I always put that down to it being colder as well so could be energy rather than what I've always thought.
She doesn't rush out on rides, she generally goes at a regular pace, we walk most of the way out. Sadly she has habits of where she gets to go fast so after she has had a little burn and got herself a little wound up, it takes some time to bring her adrenaline back down but then the rest is back on the buckle walking home but it varies depending on how full of it she is feeling, some days it is a struggle to get her to walk but it isn't a wired faced jog home. I rode a fair amount over the couple of weeks I was off at Christmas and we had no issues then either. It only started again when we went back to one day a week before the clocks changed and my confidence progressively got worse.
Depending on the company we are with, if they are non-competitive, she follows like a donkey with no issues at all. If they are competitive, she wants to be in front and then she is looky again but nothing extreme like she is on her own currently.
Another strange thing I forgot to mention, when I've ridden her, if we have been walking and she has seen something so terrifying she cannot pass it, if I lean forwards and kind of reach my arm out next to her head so she can see me, like I was leading her, she goes passed.
The differences in my own riding in summer is I'm confident the ground is fine, in the winter I worry about it being sinky or slippery so perhaps that can play a part subconsciously too.
ETA: She isn't spooky or nervous in the school and we rarely go in there. She is also fine hacking out following someone on foot, she follows them the whole time whether heading out or home.
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Casey76
Well-Known Member
Horses who are hypervigilant, spooky and want to rush is often due to deferred pain, and it can be a vicious circle.
Horses who are unconfident can normally be really helped by long reining them, because it teaches independence from a leader, but the “driver” can become a ‘leader’ and be at the head to offer support when the horse is facing something which they are unsure of. Long reining also provides structured exercise without carrying a weight.
Has your horse being tested for myopathies? Increased spooking when not in regular exercise, especially in winter sounds very myopathy-like (and even if nor PSSM1 or type 2 variants, there are still many other idiopathic myopathies which may only be apparent on biopsy)
Horses who are unconfident can normally be really helped by long reining them, because it teaches independence from a leader, but the “driver” can become a ‘leader’ and be at the head to offer support when the horse is facing something which they are unsure of. Long reining also provides structured exercise without carrying a weight.
Has your horse being tested for myopathies? Increased spooking when not in regular exercise, especially in winter sounds very myopathy-like (and even if nor PSSM1 or type 2 variants, there are still many other idiopathic myopathies which may only be apparent on biopsy)
Ellietotz
Well-Known Member
She doesn't rush, admittedly we have bad habits of "gallop spots" but if I avoid those areas, it's generally a normal ride minus the current spooking. Having said that, sometimes in these spots, if I tell her in my seat that we aren't doing anything fast here today, she knows and she doesn't go. I know of a horse who was in pain and was absolutely wired, couldn't go anywhere unless it was full speed, throwing itself about. Mine is not like that at all, we mostly walk, certain spots she will break into trot or canter but it's never a hold on for dear life scenario. It's really depending on how fast she's gone and how much adrenaline she has from it but providing that is avoided and how fresh she is feeling, 9 out of 10, it's normal, never chaotic.
She is negative for P1, P2, P3, P4 and Px but I haven't tested for anything else. She does do a lot better with over-rugging and gets cold really easily. When I put her on Vitamin E before, I thought there was a huge difference but after having the results back and taking her off, nothing changed in terms of movement and "squishyness" so it must have been the rugging. I wouldn't know what else to test for but I can look into this.
I've never long reined her before as she can be a kicker but I have led her out quite a lot and she is fine following me. I've gotten off her out on rides before to get her passed things and she just follows with no worry at all then too.
SEL
Well-Known Member
^^^ this
I have a bombproof 13h children's pony who last year came back into work after weanling her foal and was generally unhappy. It took a while to find out what was wrong and the vets asked me to keep persevering with her because resting wasn't showing up the problem.
This is a pony who can go in the heaviest of traffic and barely blink and one quiet Sunday morning felt so on edge I began to think she was going to bolt for home. She was spooking at people in their gardens, shaking her head manically and falling over her own feet she was so stressed. I got off and walked her back. You could have just assumed she was being naughty or unsettled but actually she was in pain and distressed.
Ellietotz
Well-Known Member
Thank you, yes I understand and have seen this in horses before.
My mare isn't like this at all. There is no build up to the spook, it is sudden and over the top, usually only when cantering where it's almost like she isn't thinking quick enough and reacts before processing it in her head. She isn't nervous or on edge, prancy, shaky, wired etc, she is just like any other horse out riding except for this. Anyone could ride her out easily, she's just sharp when it comes to this.
She walks when we walk, trots when we trot etc. Rather than just dodging to the left or right, we have to suddenly stop and/or spin away from what scared her which has only started and not gone away since January this year. The previous spooking is usually looky and veering around things or sometimes not at all. My confidence has gone down because I was caught off guard the first couple of the times she did it and now I can't get it out my head so I think it's partly that and in my subconscious even when I think I'm being confident too potentially.
Harleybabe
New User
My mare was like this. Turned out to be a number of issues that sadly we were unable to manage after a number of years of the best treatments. She was retired and lived happily for a few years until her issues caught up with her and after watching her quality of life start to go, and needing more painkillers, we said goodbye of a warm summers day with a full belly and lots of tears.
I still, to this day, feel immense guilt. Looking back at videos her issues could be seen from 4 years old. This mare had the best of everything but sometimes you cannot fix what it broken. Your mare is communicating with you that something is wrong, she is not comfortable and, as her owner, you have a duty of care to listen to her cues.
I am sorry, I remember the heartbreak. My mares issues were not genetic and we were able to get her sound and happy for a few years, and bred one foal who I still have (he is 7 now and is amazing). Her foaling was tough but she handled it well and I am greatful to have gained another 4 years with her after before we said goodbye.
People here are trying to help. I used to be like you OP, very defensive, but at the end of the day, we are all horse lovers and only ever want the best for our 4 legged friends.
Ellietotz
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry to hear about your mare. Can I ask what issues she had?
I just want to say that I'm not being defensive if that's how my posts are being perceived. I am still just discussing as I've already said. I'm not denying something is wrong, only saying what is happening or what has happened from my side.
I would also feel horribly guilty if I carried on and something was found later on, providing I had the confidence too anyway though I have only carried on with vets advice before now.
Elf On A Shelf
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Fixing the spooking won't fix the lameness. Fixing the lameness "may" fix the spooking.
Ellietotz
Well-Known Member
Of course and it would be lovely to do the latter even to be a field ornament.
Harleybabe
New User
She had a number of issues. All of which seemed to stem from a fall she had on the road as a youngster. In the later stages she started to show ataxia and almost fell on me when I was leading her in from the field once. She started to refuse to lay down in the stable and slipped in mud. She also had issues with her hind leg tendons but all was linked back to the pelvic injury.
I was in a dark place for a long time. I shared our journey on here and when people highlighted issues I reacted how you do. I wish I had listened more. She never suffered, and she was happy. But she started to look old and with the ataxia and a lump that was found on her side, a tooth issue that needed surgery, it was time. I miss her, every day. She was my heart horse and I am blessed to own her son. But I would give anything to have her back even just to have her in a field.
We spent thousands on her. None of it worked for very long. But I will say, the years she spent retired, all day in a field, a nightly pamper session and lots of cuddles, improved her greatly. Sometimes we don't want to retire as it is seen as "giving up", but it isn't. Sometimes we have to just accept we cannot control everything, and in order to change something we have to change everything.
Elf On A Shelf
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So why are you still riding her? Riding a lame horse that has been lame for years doesn't magically cure it.
Yes some things can be worked through with correct riding and schooling and horses can become sounder when the muscles are built up properly but that is in mildly lame horses or horses that are coming back from injury.
One of my exracers was mechanically lame. He had slipped the tendon off of the side of his hock and once it had settled down he was not sore on it he just moved as though he had string halt. I did bits and pieces with him but he was another who made it abundantly clear he was not comfortable being ridden because it used the muscles in a different way. So he retired to the field for 8 years before I lost him to a field accident. I could have persevered and bullied him into work but what would that achieve? An angry, resentful horse who had issues about work as it was even when he was sound as a racehorse.
If you want a horse to ride then buy/loan a sound one and let your mare be happy in the field if she is field sound, which from your comment makes it seem as though she isn't even that.
Ellietotz
Well-Known Member
I'm not? I've already said when she was last ridden. I'm not sure why I have to keep saying this but I don't have confidence on her so I don't want to ride her.
I was riding before this time because I had the vets approval on it.
I've never had to force her to do anything, we only hack.
What comment shows she isn't field sound?