Hit an all time low with my horse :(

[Ellietotz]

You got my meaning perfectly

Ellietotz you might thing you are being picked on but at the end of the day you cannot post the things you have and expect that people are going to agree with you surely..??!! I'm trying really hard not to be rude but you really seem to be uninterested in any advice or opinion that goes against yours. Ultimately this is your horse and your conscience. Why post here if you are so sure that what you are doing is right..?? You are riding an unhappy and lame horse....that doesn't convince anyone that you have her best interests at heart

Nope, I don't think I'm being picked on remotely and I don't particularly care. I just think rudeness is uncalled for.
When I posted today, I was simply musing as I'd already said before anyone jumped to conclusions.
It is fascinating how everyone seems to know the decisions and plans I'm making and what is going on in my mind and also how everyone seems to know my horse better than I do.
I haven't once said I am ignoring others opinions because I haven't but I am following the vets advice most importantly which seems to have made everyone have an utter meltdown because I haven't done what forum strangers have told me to do.
Everyone is being extremely judgemental and assuming I've gone back to normal blasting her about like everything is fine, it is ridiculous. Since saying I'm retiring her, I have ridden once to get a video for the physio and vet and a second time to get an after video for them, both times I didn't want to be on her at all contrary to popular belief. This thread started due to me losing confidence after all.
Just because I haven't imprisoned her to the field the moment I'm told on here, it's an RSPCA case.
I'm not looking for people to side with my opinion because you all assume you know what my thoughts are when you really don't. You all really have absolutely no idea actually as much as you like to think you do. I'll think twice next time I want to have a conversation about something as I daren't allow anyone to think I'm changing my mind and going against everyone's wishes.

 

[Lois Lame]

She also does eat one of the other mare's poos too but after all the gut supplements, nothing really seemed to improve this.

Do you know what the other mare is fed?

ETA: Is she living with other horses apart from this mare? If she was living only with the mare, I'd suspect she wanted more roughage but if she singles out this mare's droppings, then I wonder why.

 

[Lois Lame]

I can see what the Bowen lady means, she does hold in her whole body when she moves, her stomach doesn't move, there is no swing.

This is interesting. I am sure it is very significant.

BTW, I don't think the Bowen lady sounds barking mad, but I do wonder why she advises certain products instead of certain feeds. Does she get a cut?

These days, everyone is getting a cut. (Nearly everyone... you know what I mean.) It's rampant. You can't trust that anyone you deal with in real life is really telling you what they think is best without them benefitting in some way.

 

[Lois Lame]

All of that apart from the poo eating is also signs of a lame horse which is far more likely. Horses have a stronger side the same way people do, and its generally the left due to the way we handle them. The issue with lack of swing is also almost certainly pain rather than some imagined microbiome issue.

This left side being the strongest is something that I've never agreed with. I think most horses are stronger on their right, like most of us.

If I jump over a log (on foot) I favour my right leg to jump off. It's stronger, more capable and I am less likely to fall on my face. When a horse canters to the left, it's his right hind he's using the most strongly. Like us. Or me, at any rate.

Why don't you all go out and jump over a log and test yourselves? Neighbours will wonder why suddenly so many people are doing little jumps.

 

[Lois Lame]

The issue with lack of swing is also almost certainly pain rather than some imagined microbiome issue.

Sorry, me again.
I think the lack of swing could easily be from pain from digestive system.

 

[Lois Lame]

Also thunderbrooks are a horrible company owned by horrible people. I have read many threads on here about people having the same bad experiences as I have had so it is not just my bad experience.

So have I. I wouldn't touch them if we had that stuff here.

 

[Lois Lame]

Nope, I don't think I'm being picked on remotely and I don't particularly care. I just think rudeness is uncalled for.
When I posted today, I was simply musing as I'd already said before anyone jumped to conclusions.
It is fascinating how everyone seems to know the decisions and plans I'm making and what is going on in my mind and also how everyone seems to know my horse better than I do.
I haven't once said I am ignoring others opinions because I haven't but I am following the vets advice most importantly which seems to have made everyone have an utter meltdown because I haven't done what forum strangers have told me to do.
Everyone is being extremely judgemental and assuming I've gone back to normal blasting her about like everything is fine, it is ridiculous. Since saying I'm retiring her, I have ridden once to get a video for the physio and vet and a second time to get an after video for them, both times I didn't want to be on her at all contrary to popular belief. This thread started due to me losing confidence after all.
Just because I haven't imprisoned her to the field the moment I'm told on here, it's an RSPCA case.
I'm not looking for people to side with my opinion because you all assume you know what my thoughts are when you really don't. You all really have absolutely no idea actually as much as you like to think you do. I'll think twice next time I want to have a conversation about something as I daren't allow anyone to think I'm changing my mind and going against everyone's wishes.

Excellent post.

 

[LaurenBay]

My mare was always spooky. Nothing bad and totally manageable. Her spooking became a lot worse and she appeared overly forward and rushing. I had investigations done as like you I had began to lose my confidence riding her. Turns out she was in pain, I did try various treatments. But nothing worked long term so I retired her. I was so heartbroken I actually went to the doctors and was prescribed antidepressants. After about 3 months it was better, I saw how happy she was just being a Horse with no extra pressure. She had given me years and years of fun and memories which will last me a lifetime. She had always looked after me and now it was my turn to return the favour. Making the final decision to retire is hard, I think a part of me was also hoping there would be a miracle cure. I moved her off the yard and onto a retirement field. She had a lovely retirement before she sadly became too lame for the field and I had to have her PTS.

I do feel your Horse would be better off being retired. I also think it will be better for you (you just won't see that yet because it's so raw, give it some time and you'll see what I mean)

 

[Trouper]

.......because I haven't done what forum strangers have told me to do.

I am really sorry you are still struggling to see a clear way forward with your mare but, if I may gently suggest, the whole point of discussing the issues on here is not to be told what to do but to get the advice of some pretty experienced people who have been in your situation before. I always find that discussing a complex issues helps to clear my mind - even if it only confirms what I suspected was the right course of action. When folk here say "retire her" I don't think it is coming as an order but their considered view based on experience and you must, of course, make the final decision yourself. I am also mindful that if your YO was the mare's only other owner then it does make it a more sensitive issue for you to deal with if you have to tell her you are retiring the mare.

I will add a further tuppence-worth - I would be looking to get a final and independent opinion on her and that for me would be Tom Beech (the Osteopathic Vet) who will give you a totally holistic assessment (including gut) and if there is anything to find then he will probably find it. If you are not aware of his work then have a look at his FB page or read @Ambers Echo recent posting on Toby's assessment by Tom to see the sort of things that he finds/does. For me conventional vets just do not find the subtle issues which cause the problems.

I think we all just want the best for our horses and, yes, that sometimes makes advice come across as a bit authoratative - but that's horse people!!!

 

[Ellietotz]

My mare was always spooky. Nothing bad and totally manageable. Her spooking became a lot worse and she appeared overly forward and rushing. I had investigations done as like you I had began to lose my confidence riding her. Turns out she was in pain, I did try various treatments. But nothing worked long term so I retired her. I was so heartbroken I actually went to the doctors and was prescribed antidepressants. After about 3 months it was better, I saw how happy she was just being a Horse with no extra pressure. She had given me years and years of fun and memories which will last me a lifetime. She had always looked after me and now it was my turn to return the favour. Making the final decision to retire is hard, I think a part of me was also hoping there would be a miracle cure. I moved her off the yard and onto a retirement field. She had a lovely retirement before she sadly became too lame for the field and I had to have her PTS.

I do feel your Horse would be better off being retired. I also think it will be better for you (you just won't see that yet because it's so raw, give it some time and you'll see what I mean)

I think the difference with those of you who have retired due to lameness is usually because something obvious was found. I've had hind suspensories scanned twice, ovaries scanned, uterus scanned, full back xray, hind limb xrays, eyes tested, all PSSM types tested, SI joint injected, work ups, flexion tests, scoped, etc.
The only thing that I actually hadn't done was focus on her gut. Other than treating the ulcers she had 5 years a go and putting her on a general gut support at the time, that's as far as it has gone.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to convince anyone, myself or otherwise about my horse. My thoughts and plans are my own, I am just discussing.

 

[Ellietotz]

Do you know what the other mare is fed?

ETA: Is she living with other horses apart from this mare? If she was living only with the mare, I'd suspect she wanted more roughage but if she singles out this mare's droppings, then I wonder why.

Yes, other mare gets standard pony nuts and grass chaff, nothing else. Though the Bowen lady is very into the whole digestive system aspect and said if my mare was born with a rubbish microbiome, then she will always have it without intervention and the mare who's droppings she is eating is likely to have a very good microbiome. All of YO's horses eat the same feed but she only ever eats this particular mare's. She's not living with her but sometimes when I've chucked her in the stable after the mare has been in there if it has started raining for example, she will devour the lot but never does it with anyone else's. Mine lives out 24/7 with hay, grass and her feed which is now Thunderbrooks nuts with Protexin.

 

[Ellietotz]

This is interesting. I am sure it is very significant.

BTW, I don't think the Bowen lady sounds barking mad, but I do wonder why she advises certain products instead of certain feeds. Does she get a cut?

These days, everyone is getting a cut. (Nearly everyone... you know what I mean.) It's rampant. You can't trust that anyone you deal with in real life is really telling you what they think is best without them benefitting in some way.

She has recommended Thunderbrooks and Agrobs for the diversity in the grasses for gut health. Probably gets a cut but I don't know!

 

[Ellietotz]

I am really sorry you are still struggling to see a clear way forward with your mare but, if I may gently suggest, the whole point of discussing the issues on here is not to be told what to do but to get the advice of some pretty experienced people who have been in your situation before. I always find that discussing a complex issues helps to clear my mind - even if it only confirms what I suspected was the right course of action. When folk here say "retire her" I don't think it is coming as an order but their considered view based on experience and you must, of course, make the final decision yourself. I am also mindful that if your YO was the mare's only other owner then it does make it a more sensitive issue for you to deal with if you have to tell her you are retiring the mare.

I will add a further tuppence-worth - I would be looking to get a final and independent opinion on her and that for me would be Tom Beech (the Osteopathic Vet) who will give you a totally holistic assessment (including gut) and if there is anything to find then he will probably find it. If you are not aware of his work then have a look at his FB page or read @Ambers Echo recent posting on Toby's assessment by Tom to see the sort of things that he finds/does. For me conventional vets just do not find the subtle issues which cause the problems.

I think we all just want the best for our horses and, yes, that sometimes makes advice come across as a bit authoratative - but that's horse people!!!

I'm not struggling to see a clear way forward, I know my plans. Having advice to retire my horse is fine but it stops being advice when people throw their toys out the pram when they think I haven't done as they've recommended and start being rude. I've seen posts on Facebook about it and other forum viewers calling me a "f**k**g tw@t" etc. It's extremely upsetting when people have just made assumptions about me and what I'm doing. I only wanted to talk about it.

Naturally, I wanted to see if focusing on her gut as a last resort makes any difference in her way of going as I have been advised. This doesn't mean she is being ridden. If that is the issue, then at least it makes her more comfortable irrespective of whether her ridden career has ended.
I have spoken to Tom Beech before too, it is a struggle to get him in the area it seems but I will contact him again. Though if he says it's gut too, I don't doubt everyone will still tell me she is lame and needs retiring so I can't win.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Pain in her gut could make her lame, as she tries to protect the sore area when she moves.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Pain in her gut could make her lame, as she tries to protect the sore area when she moves.

Absolutely agree, but if a horse moves wonkily long term to protect a sore gut it sets up all sort of knock of stresses and strains on the rest of the horse. These issues may not resolve even when/if the sore gut issue is addressed, the damage has been done.

The ideal is to get in early, but it is well worth looking into even later as we owe it to our horses for them to be as comfortable as possible, whether or not we ride them.

 

[Ellietotz]

Pain in her gut could make her lame, as she tries to protect the sore area when she moves.

Yes and probably more so if she has always had it since she was born.
I started the Protexin Gut Balancer 6 days a go and yesterday was the first time in a while that I've put her rug on without her pulling faces at me though probably just a flook and she also wasn't interested in the other mare's droppings when I put her in the stable for dinner and a brush.
I have found the Oily Herbs thread really interesting too so I may look to adding those at some point after I find what works best. I was tempted to use Equibiome's prebiotic supplement but I went with Protexin in the end due to having so many reviews as a general blanket pre/probiotic just to start off with really.
I gathered her a large "horse salad" of thistle, wilted nettles, cleavers and new hawthorn stems which she took the biggest few mouthfuls of so I will keep offering that to her too.

 

[Meredith]

Perhaps there are more knowledgeable people on the forum who could confirm or contradict this.

I have vague memories from many years ago of an old fashioned horseman feeding poo from a healthy horse to a poor one.
In more recent times an old gentleman told me he had realised this was a way of repopulating the gut.

 

[Ellietotz]

Perhaps there are more knowledgeable people on the forum who could confirm or contradict this.

I have vague memories from many years ago of an old fashioned horseman feeding poo from a healthy horse to a poor one.
In more recent times an old gentleman told me he had realised this was a way of repopulating the gut.

Yes, a faecal microbiota transplant or "poo teas" I have heard of. However, she wasn't interested in it yesterday so perhaps the Protexin is doing something.

 

[Frumpoon]

Ellie, you've sparked a really interesting discussion so well done for that

This is the second time I've read about gut flora and I'm definitely investigating that for my horses

The Bowen stuff is new to me and does sound a bit woo but again I'll look into it

It's a shame that the usual suspects have all piled into give you a kicking

I'd say more on this subject but I'll only get an infraction

 

[Ellietotz]

Ellie, you've sparked a really interesting discussion so well done for that

This is the second time I've read about gut flora and I'm definitely investigating that for my horses

The Bowen stuff is new to me and does sound a bit woo but again I'll look into it

It's a shame that the usual suspects have all piled into give you a kicking

I'd say more on this subject but I'll only get an infraction

I was always very on and off with gut supplements for her as I never knew if it was doing anything but there were also times where she wasn't spooky at all. I only wish I'd kept a diary of what she was fed at the time, how she moved and how her behaviour was to see if it linked up. The only one I did find was her being absolutely spook free on Topspec Calmer so it will be interesting to know if it was the pre/probiotics in that which made her like it or the tryptophan.

Yes, I will admit some of the things the Bowen lady was saying to me, I had to stop myself from rolling my eyes but equally, a lot of it was very interesting and it does add up with the things my mare does. She actually felt her legs were working very hard all things considered and it was the body that wasn't moving and we know she doesn't have ulcers or kissing spine etc so it's worth a go.

It was made a whole lot worse seeing strangers on FB calling me a f'ing tw@t and immature amongst other things being said not knowing I could see it.

 

[Frumpoon]

I was always very on and off with gut supplements for her as I never knew if it was doing anything but there were also times where she wasn't spooky at all. I only wish I'd kept a diary of what she was fed at the time, how she moved and how her behaviour was to see if it linked up. The only one I did find was her being absolutely spook free on Topspec Calmer so it will be interesting to know if it was the pre/probiotics in that which made her like it or the tryptophan.

Yes, I will admit some of the things the Bowen lady was saying to me, I had to stop myself from rolling my eyes but equally, a lot of it was very interesting and it does add up with the things my mare does. She actually felt her legs were working very hard all things considered and it was the body that wasn't moving and we know she doesn't have ulcers or kissing spine etc so it's worth a go.

It was made a whole lot worse seeing strangers on FB calling me a f'ing tw@t and immature amongst other things being said not knowing I could see it.

People are a delight everywhere!!!

Horses are like a puzzle..its just sometimes you can't solve it but there's a huge amount of satisfaction in trying even if they can't be ridden anymore

I like to know I've tried everything

 

[SEL]

Perhaps there are more knowledgeable people on the forum who could confirm or contradict this.

I have vague memories from many years ago of an old fashioned horseman feeding poo from a healthy horse to a poor one.
In more recent times an old gentleman told me he had realised this was a way of repopulating the gut.

Not personally knowledgeable but one of the team that run Thunderbrooks wrote an article on it a while back. Might be this one.

https://thunderbrook.co.uk/why-does-my-horse-eat-horse-poo/

 

[SEL]

@Ellietotz

I have tended to find that gut supplements work for some horses and not others - it is likely down to the microbiome of that specific horse and what it needs / doesn't need. Research in that area is still in its infancy and I'm sure in a decade or so we'll be able to get bespoke feeding plans for horses, but right now muddling along is all we can do.

The team at Equibiome usually recommend owners do 30 days on 'oily herbs' - thyme, rosemary and oregano - and have seen some really good results. You can get those herbs dried from many places or somewhere like Equinatural will make up 1kg for you. You should be able to feed those alongside what you are already feeding.

I have retirees and I still support the gut of the one that needs it.

 

[Ellietotz]

@Ellietotz

I have tended to find that gut supplements work for some horses and not others - it is likely down to the microbiome of that specific horse and what it needs / doesn't need. Research in that area is still in its infancy and I'm sure in a decade or so we'll be able to get bespoke feeding plans for horses, but right now muddling along is all we can do.

The team at Equibiome usually recommend owners do 30 days on 'oily herbs' - thyme, rosemary and oregano - and have seen some really good results. You can get those herbs dried from many places or somewhere like Equinatural will make up 1kg for you. You should be able to feed those alongside what you are already feeding.

I have retirees and I still support the gut of the one that needs it.

Thank you for that and the link. I had read that before but going to read it again.

Yes, I've been reading about it on the Equibiome website too and it is way more complex than I'd have thought initially.
Do people feed the oily herbs permanently and on top of a prebiotic? I looked at getting them on RealFoods and for £10, you can get 250g of each which is pretty good.

 

[Regandal]

SEL, that is fascinating. I’m wondering how they get the poo tea into the horse? Tube the horse, or pour it on a feed perhaps? Tad gross!

 

[LaurenBay]

If you can manage to get Tom Beech he is fantastic. I feel frustrated for you that you have investigated so much with little answers. If only Horses could talk. For now would it be worth retiring her ( could perhaps still do some ground work exercises) and see if you can get Tom out to see her. Or if you believe gut issues maybe someone can recommend a specialist on here who maybe able to help. I do really feel for the both of you.

 

[Tiddlypom]

SEL, that is fascinating. I’m wondering how they get the poo tea into the horse? Tube the horse, or pour it on a feed perhaps? Tad gross!

Apparently at Leahurst they tubed the horses, using poo from a healthy donor. Not sure how successful it was, or how many horses this technique was used on, but it is not widespread practice now.

The vet who saw this done when she worked at Leahurst was the one who recommended getting my mare's equibiome analysis done, rather than a poo transplant.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I was always very on and off with gut supplements for her as I never knew if it was doing anything but there were also times where she wasn't spooky at all. I only wish I'd kept a diary of what she was fed at the time, how she moved and how her behaviour was to see if it linked up. The only one I did find was her being absolutely spook free on Topspec Calmer so it will be interesting to know if it was the pre/probiotics in that which made her like it or the tryptophan.

Yes, I will admit some of the things the Bowen lady was saying to me, I had to stop myself from rolling my eyes but equally, a lot of it was very interesting and it does add up with the things my mare does. She actually felt her legs were working very hard all things considered and it was the body that wasn't moving and we know she doesn't have ulcers or kissing spine etc so it's worth a go.

It was made a whole lot worse seeing strangers on FB calling me a f'ing tw@t and immature amongst other things being said not knowing I could see it.

That's not nice what people have done on Facebook it's a form of bullying and they should be ashamed of themselves.

My showing friends use the Bach remedies and swear by them for all sorts of things behaviour and just general health, you basically look them up read what each one does then buy a few that you think your horse would benefit from, you need to put a bucket of water for each different one in the stable and see what they choose to drink, I think it's 10 drops for a small black bucket, they are quite cheap and you just order them on line, they were recommended by a behavourist psycic type person they use.

I haven't used the person for my horses or the remedies but they use them all the time! Might be worth a try.

 

[SEL]

Thank you for that and the link. I had read that before but going to read it again.

Yes, I've been reading about it on the Equibiome website too and it is way more complex than I'd have thought initially.
Do people feed the oily herbs permanently and on top of a prebiotic? I looked at getting them on RealFoods and for £10, you can get 250g of each which is pretty good.

Some permanently and some try for a month to see how it does. They taste quite strong so you don't need much (about 10g of each as a starter).

 

[SEL]

SEL, that is fascinating. I’m wondering how they get the poo tea into the horse? Tube the horse, or pour it on a feed perhaps? Tad gross!

In the old days it was poured on a feed apparently!