Horse being returned to dealer (contract needed)...?

[orange gal]

Hi everyone,

I bought a happy hack from a breeder, and it turns out she wasn't as advertised, or just has settled in very poorly. She was a total sweetie when I met her, but she reared me off at home and reared up several times further on the ground, as well as some biting and kicking (I am a very gentle rider, not at all aggressive, although maybe she would do better with someone firmer!) It has clearly been a silly mistake of mine to buy her as I didn't do enough homework. However, the breeder has been good about it and offered some solutions, and when these didn't work, I asked for a return, as I am legally protected (feels awful talking about returning a horse like shes a pair of shoes...).

So they agreed, but due to them having real financial difficulties and being somewhat of a family breeder I suggested they could sell her on before returning my money, as they had already spent it on bills. She is scheduled to leave here on the 27th, should I write up a letter or contract to be scanned and signed by both parties? I don't want the horse and the money disappearing! Is there anyone with experience with a situation like this? What did you do?

And yes I was stupid to not do more homework, I am angry at myself for letting my heart get in the way, as this was a special purchase for me and my mum to share, and the horse we've dreamt about (or so we thought) for years). You don't need to tell me I'm an idiot-I already know!

 

[AmyMay]

No, no, no. Don’t do it - as then the liability passes to you.

Return her for a full refund only upon collection.

 

[wren123]

What amymay said a million times over!

 

[AUB]

If you are ok to wait for your money, then yes, you do need a contract. The ownership of the horse must go back to the breeder, so that you are not responsible for anything that happens to the horse after you’ve returned it, but also to protect the next buyer. If ownership does not go back to the breeder then you might be regarded as the actual seller, which means that the next owner will not be protected by consumer rights like you are now. So you’re also doing the next buyer a favor.

Also, just to make sure you can actually get your money back later on, even if it means you’ll need to sue the breeder, you need a contract signed by both parties.
Make sure to put in a date where they will need to pay you, no matter if the horse is sold or not.

 

[orange gal]

Thank you guys for the responses. AUB, yes I don't need the money and so I don't want to be aggressive if I don't need to be. I have not applied for transfer of ownership on her passport as the issues arose before I could, so she is still technically in the breeders name, although I have texts confirming payment/dealing, and payment was done via bank transfer.

Spoke to the breeder just now, they are very unwilling to pay, although not rude or anything. I suggested a monthly payment plan or to sell her on and any difference could be made up, breeder insisted they are too poor for even this. Said they'd speak to their staff and contact me tomorrow. If they don't contact me I guess next step would be solicitor's letter, although this would not be ideal.

I appreciate the advice, I don't have a lot of horsey people in my area so feeling a little alone!

 

[criso]

. I have not applied for transfer of ownership on her passport as the issues arose before I could, so she is still technically in the breeders name, although I have texts confirming payment/dealing, and payment was done via bank transfer.

You can't say you are not the owner because you haven't updated the passport when there is proof you have bought the horse.

However next time get a Bill of Sale, this doesn't have to be anything fancy, a handwritten piece of paper saying accepted payment for x and your names/signatures as at least some passport agencies ask for something showing purchase when changing the name on a passport.

 

[AmyMay]

The passport is not proof of ownership. Your bill of sale is.

The dealer may be ‘unwilling’ to refund you, but in law they have to.

I’d progress no further with them until you’ve consulted an equine solicitor. What they’re doing is common practice amongst the less scrupulous dealer.

 

[orange gal]

The passport is not proof of ownership. Your bill of sale is.

The dealer may be ‘unwilling’ to refund you, but in law they have to.

I’d progress no further with them until you’ve consulted an equine solicitor. What they’re doing is common practice amongst the less scrupulous dealer.

Totally agree, was just mentioning that her papers do say breeders name, but definitely know she is my horse atm!

And yes, I am not a very confrontational person, so I have attempted to resolve this amicably, as this is of course a nightmare scenario for me!

I consulted a solicitor initially, to ensure I was protected under the consumer rights act and asking what to do, he said their lack of money isn't my problem and I am fully entitled to the money back, but I will contact him again to advise now that they are digging their heels in. I of course won't agree to anything without a solicitor verifying it, but definitely would help to get some legal advice on my options.

And thank you all for the continued advice-hopefully this thread helps out anyone else running into issues as well!

 

[shamrock2021]

It a dangerous game you are playing. If you this go’s wrong the dealer could technically label you as a seller and the new owners could return the horse to you as a result. I think you will probably need a contract as proof that you don’t own the horse but I am unsure about the laws around that subject. I think you’re going to need a equestrian or livestock solicitor.

 

[Upthecreek]

You own the horse. If you send it back to the breeder to sell and they haven’t paid you they are effectively selling it on your behalf, like sales livery. If the horse does not settle with the next owner and displays undesirable behaviour it will be your problem. As much as you are probably feeling like you want to just get rid of the horse I would not send it back without getting your money refunded.

 

[criso]

There may be a way of returning for a refund and agreeing a payment plan but I would want a solicitor to help to get all the paperwork exactly right and you might have to prepared for them to miss a payment and you have to decide what to do.

 

[ester]

If they haven't paid for the horse and they sell it they are then acting as 'agent' and you remain the seller. I think you are being far too nice and accommodating!

I think there are 2 alternatives, 1 don't send it back until you have payment
or return the horse and go to small claims court for the money if they don't pay you.

 

[orange gal]

You own the horse. If you send it back to the breeder to sell and they haven’t paid you they are effectively selling it on your behalf, like sales livery. If the horse does not settle with the next owner and displays undesirable behaviour it will be your problem. As much as you are probably feeling like you want to just get rid of the horse I would not send it back without getting your money refunded.

The solicitor I spoke to today seemed to think if the dealer could sell it on my behalf from my yard, it would be the most sound option. Even if I was considered the seller, surely because I would then be a private seller the buyer would not be protected in the same way? The solicitor also stated that even if a contract was drawn up for ie. monthly instalments, there was no guarantee the dealer would pay so it could end up in court anyways.

And yes, definitely wishing she would just disappear and the money reappear! Definitely a learning lesson...

 

[ester]

Was the solicitor an equine specialist?
There are still protections if you are purchasing from a private seller. For dealers it must be fit for purpose, for private it needs to be as described and if someone is acting as agent you aren't in control of the descriptions given.
As she has turned out to be not as described what happens if, if truthfully described she will only sell for a fraction of what you paid?

 

[orange gal]

If they haven't paid for the horse and they sell it they are then acting as 'agent' and you remain the seller. I think you are being far too nice and accommodating!

I think there are 2 alternatives, 1 don't send it back until you have payment
or return the horse and go to small claims court for the money if they don't pay you.

Very possibly! My best mate said the same thing about being too nice! If they are so insistent they don't have the money, I guess maybe insist it is paid as soon as possible so she can be returned?

The breeder has received wonderful word of mouth praise from everyone we spoke to before buying, although he did shout at me saying VAT would cost extra (maybe that should have been a red flag!) So I gather either a bit of a temper or just truly stressed about money issues

 

[orange gal]

Was the solicitor an equine specialist?
There are still protections if you are purchasing from a private seller. For dealers it must be fit for purpose, for private it needs to be as described and if someone is acting as agent you aren't in control of the descriptions given.
As she has turned out to be not as described what happens if, if truthfully described she will only sell for a fraction of what you paid?

Yes I went through Lodders equine solicitors, he seemed knowledgeable, and said its a common situation, although can be quite tricky. And I am still entitled to the full refund, so I mentioned to the breeder even if she sold for less (as he suggested the same) he would have to make up the difference himself. So I guess some sort of agreement that breeder will be acting as seller and I will receive full refund regardless?

 

[ycbm]

The solicitor I spoke to today seemed to think if the dealer could sell it on my behalf from my yard, it would be the most sound option.

Really? That would be known as an agency sale and is fraught with problems!

For example, if the dealer/ breeder/agent lies YOU, as the owner, are responsible for the lie.

Please don't go there!

 

[AmyMay]

Even as a private seller you can be held liable if the horse is not as described.

I’m amazed at the advice you received from your solicitor.

The dealers are scamming you.

 

[Upthecreek]

It doesn’t sound like you are getting the best legal advice. Are you a BHS member? Their legal helpline is very good.

I do think you are being too accommodating to the breeder though. They sold you a horse which isn’t as described and as long as you can prove that you are entitled to return the horse and have the purchase price refunded. Their money worries aren’t your problem. Tell them you are sending the horse back and require a full refund and that you will be starting a claim with the small claims court if it isn’t forthcoming. You are letting yourself in for a whole world of trouble if you send it back for them to sell.

 

[orange gal]

It doesn’t sound like you are getting the best legal advice. Are you a BHS member? Their legal helpline is very good.

I do think you are being too accommodating to the breeder though. They sold you a horse which isn’t as described and as long as you can prove that you are entitled to return the horse and have the purchase price refunded. Their money worries aren’t your problem. Tell them you are sending the horse back and require a full refund and that you will be starting a claim with the small claims court if it isn’t forthcoming. You are letting yourself in for a whole world of trouble if you send it back for them to sell.

This sounds like a very good plan. I realise I probably sound like a gullible ditz on here-mostly inexperience with horse buying! Very very very grateful to all of you, it's really reassuring to receive some solid help from you all. Breeder said they would contact me tomorrow, and I will be very clear about the next steps. Its tough as I hate the thought of horses being stuck without care due to money issues, but I know this very well is probably a part of the breeder's intent to draw this out.

 

[Melody Grey]

Don’t feel a fool OP, even the most experienced amongst us buy horses that aren’t as described and end up returning them sometimes, that’s life.

I second what others have said in returning the horse ASAP and pursuing through small claims if the money is not forthcoming. Don’t allow the dealer to act as your agent, it allows them to dodge liability and it might come back on you.

 

[Wishfilly]

It is not a great situation for this one horse, but if dealers get away with this sort of behaviour then they will continue to sell unsuitable horses. The next horse might end up seriously hurting someone.

By playing hardball with this horse, long term you are helping to ensure the welfare of future horses and buyers. Dealers only behave like this because they often get away with it.

 

[SO1]

I may be wrong does VAT only become payable if self employed when someone reaches a certain income point which is quite high. If you are paying VAT on the purchase their income may not be as low as expected.....my farrier bill went up when my farrier had to start charging VAT as he was earning more.

https://www.gov.uk/vat-registration/when-to-register

Very possibly! My best mate said the same thing about being too nice! If they are so insistent they don't have the money, I guess maybe insist it is paid as soon as possible so she can be returned?

The breeder has received wonderful word of mouth praise from everyone we spoke to before buying, although he did shout at me saying VAT would cost extra (maybe that should have been a red flag!) So I gather either a bit of a temper or just truly stressed about money issues

 

[DabDab]

How did you pay for the horse? Cash, card, bank transfer?

 

[orange gal]

It is not a great situation for this one horse, but if dealers get away with this sort of behaviour then they will continue to sell unsuitable horses. The next horse might end up seriously hurting someone.

By playing hardball with this horse, long term you are helping to ensure the welfare of future horses and buyers. Dealers only behave like this because they often get away with it.

I hadn't even thought of that-good point though. It's hard not to want to think the best of everybody-we're all just horse lovers sharing our passions! But unfortunately thats a bit too romantic in times like these

 

[orange gal]

I may be wrong does VAT only become payable if self employed when someone reaches a certain income point which is quite high. If you are paying VAT on the purchase their income may not be as low as expected.....my farrier bill went up when my farrier had to start charging VAT as he was earning more.

https://www.gov.uk/vat-registration/when-to-register

Wow! Good find-honestly never crossed my mind, but absolutely. They seemed so desperate over the phone, but there are other horses and they sell so fast at that stud, it's not a penniless homeless shelter! Thank you for this find

 

[orange gal]

How did you pay for the horse? Cash, card, bank transfer?

Bank transfer! Thank goodness, glad to have a paper trail, although it was to a personal account, not a business one, although from others I spoke to seemed normal.

 

[criso]

I may be wrong does VAT only become payable if self employed when someone reaches a certain income point which is quite high. If you are paying VAT on the purchase their income may not be as low as expected.....my farrier bill went up when my farrier had to start charging VAT as he was earning more.

https://www.gov.uk/vat-registration/when-to-register

It's compulsory after your turnover exceeds 85k but you can choose to register for VAT at any income level. You then have to charge it on your goods or services assuming they are not exempt. There are benefits to registering at a lower level as it means you can claim it back on things you have bought.

ETA and it's turnover not profit.

 

[PurBee]

A happy hack that rears, kicks and bites... these poor horses breeders throw out there mis-advertised ?

Evidently the equine dodgy breeder’s list is ever growing, and whatever ‘measures/legalities’ currently in place to supposedly ‘protect’ buyers/horses from misconduct isn’t working at all.

There’s no other way but to start naming and shaming, reporting constantly to Trading Standards UK, taking breeders to court, contacting local MP’s to take the issue to legislative review process to make being a ‘horse dealer’ far more difficult than it is now. Premises checked, dealer tax hike, the whole industry needs a serious shake-up as these threads are FAR too common and completely heart-breaking for all involved, especially the poor animals who the dealers evidently have bugger-all regard for.

Poor buyers and horses are constantly suffering through the industry and action has to be taken at a higher level to stop this merry-go-round-from-hell that is the horse breeder/dealer industry.

From a grassroots perspective all horse lovers can do immediately is boycott dealers completely. Buy privately, it seems safer!

?

 

[paddy555]

although it was to a personal account, not a business one, .

well I don't suppose that's going to make the turnover in the business accounts then.