Zero00000
Well-Known Member
OP what would happen if the horse ended up severely injured/dead before any sale happened?
Where would the money come from then?
This is a bad idea.
Where would the money come from then?
This is a bad idea.
Horse being returned to dealer (contract needed)...?
- Thread starter orange gal
- Start date
TheBayThoroughbred
Active Member
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
I wonder why the horse is acting this way? Very stressful for you ?
orange gal
Member
I don't know whether she is just settling in badly. She arrived covered in sweat and shaking, maybe just very stressed from the trip, but its been weeks and she hasn't settled. I've had some horsey friends more experienced than me round, who said I can't just chalk this up to new home anxiety. She was really expensive for me and I bought her as a happy hack that had no vices, I have no arena so I hack onto roads and I can't have her misbehaving terribly when we're out, and I didn't go into this hoping for a project-had that, much too stressful!
I've been a big soupy tearful mess since I got told its unwise to keep her by the saddle fitters (she reared twice with them there), they didn't even want to sell me a saddle as it just seemed so clear we're as mismatched as they come. Fingers crossed this gets sorted not too painfully, as I'd like to move on and find a pal who I do match well. My last boy passed away two years ago and I just want to find a baby I can love again
xx
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
I don't know whether she is just settling in badly. She arrived covered in sweat and shaking, maybe just very stressed from the trip, but its been weeks and she hasn't settled. I've had some horsey friends more experienced than me round, who said I can't just chalk this up to new home anxiety. She was really expensive for me and I bought her as a happy hack that had no vices, I have no arena so I hack onto roads and I can't have her misbehaving terribly when we're out, and I didn't go into this hoping for a project-had that, much too stressful!
I've been a big soupy tearful mess since I got told its unwise to keep her by the saddle fitters (she reared twice with them there), they didn't even want to sell me a saddle as it just seemed so clear we're as mismatched as they come. Fingers crossed this gets sorted not too painfully, as I'd like to move on and find a pal who I do match well. My last boy passed away two years ago and I just want to find a baby I can love again
You poor thing - this sounds awful and so stressful for you. I had the exact same problems with my horse I bought in June.
So so hard when all you want is an easy hack as described! Is your horse good in other ways? Xx
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
What I mean by that is, if you could get the rearing sorted, would you want to keep going? X
Winters100
Well-Known Member
Did you have the horse vetted prior to purchase? What has changed in terms of feed / management of the horse? You said you purchased from breeder, so I am assuming that they would want to help you. I am just wondering if there is something to make the horse behave this way.
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
Definitely agree! X
Winters100
Well-Known Member
And of everyone Kiera knows how these things can make a big difference.
I would certainly not judge anyone for saying that it is just too much for them and that the horse needs to go back, but worth considering the reasons, and if you do return the horse doing so in a way that protects you.
Keira 8888
Well-Known Member
Absolutely! It’s an extremely hard situation to find yourself in - my heart goes out to you OP.
But there is hope! Sounds like your horse is trying to tell you something. If you can possibly spend the time and (potentially) money working out what the problem is - you will crack the issue and save this horse. So much easier to say than do I know x
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
You don't sound like a gullible ditz at all, you've consulted a good Equine lawyer. But it's shocking what appalling advice they gave you. I hope, for the sake of everyone who uses them, you just misunderstood them (which would be understandable in the stress of the situation).
The horse MUST, for your own sake, belong to the seller when it is returned, no matter how or when they pay you.
LadyGascoyne
Well-Known Member
You sound like a lovely, lovely person OP but you need to do what is right here, not what is easiest for the seller.
Horse needs to be returned, and money needs to be refunded.
Everyone above is right, if someone is acting as a dealer it is very different to acting as an agent.
A dealer’s business is buying and selling horses, and they have to understand having a horse returned as a risk of doing that sort of business.
Think about the next buyer for the horse;
They will be dealing with a dealer who is acting as an agent in this specific circumstance but was acting as a dealer when the horse was sold to the now-seller, and it will be a private sale where the dealer would usually be selling as a business - it has confusion and issues written all over it.
Horse needs to be returned, and money needs to be refunded.
Everyone above is right, if someone is acting as a dealer it is very different to acting as an agent.
A dealer’s business is buying and selling horses, and they have to understand having a horse returned as a risk of doing that sort of business.
Think about the next buyer for the horse;
They will be dealing with a dealer who is acting as an agent in this specific circumstance but was acting as a dealer when the horse was sold to the now-seller, and it will be a private sale where the dealer would usually be selling as a business - it has confusion and issues written all over it.
ownedbyaconnie
Well-Known Member
Also, assuming the breeder is then going to be truthful when selling the horse, they would need to disclose the rearing, that’s going to bring the price right down compared to when you paid for a horse im assuming was advertised as a non rearer! Or they don’t disclose it, horse then rears for new owner and they come to you for a refund because horse is not as described/fit for purpose.
The breeder not having the cash for a refund is a shoddy excuse. You may not get your money back right away but I’d look at small claims court.
The breeder not having the cash for a refund is a shoddy excuse. You may not get your money back right away but I’d look at small claims court.
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
I hadn't even thought of that-good point though. It's hard not to want to think the best of everybody-we're all just horse lovers sharing our passions! But unfortunately thats a bit too romantic in times like these
At the end of the day, dealers are out to make money. Some are honest, or at least know it will hurt their reputation to sell too many dodgy horses. Others, however, are completely unscrupulous, and rely on their customers being a bit soft hearted to allow them to get away with it in the majority of cases.
The more people push back, the more honest dealers feel they have to be, and the better for everyone (and the horses).
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I would offer the horse back to them for £1000 less thank you paid, providing it was cash on return.
No, you should not lose the money, but if they take it up, it is a quick ending to a problem.
No, you should not lose the money, but if they take it up, it is a quick ending to a problem.
orange gal
Member
Yes, a full 5 stage vetting, and the vet liked her as well, said she was very willing, which was what I found when I tried her there. She wasn't schooled to a very high level, and a bit pudgy, but nothing I couldn't spend a bit of time working on. She shook her head twice but it didn't seem an issue, and the vet said nothing was wrong with her teeth etc.
She was only given 1/4 scoop each of Dengie Alfa A and Copra on days she was ridden and I haven't put her on anything. She lives out right now at my home with another horse and my two shetlands (which ironically are WAY less management!) and she lived out in a big herd before. My thought is maybe she's missing that? The breeder seemed genuinely shocked she displayed that behaviour, and did offer a few things on the herbal remedies/psychic route, which I gave a try as a last resort and really didn't do much.
And re your second message, I would love to keep her as I fell in love with the horse I thought I was getting, and if for whatever reason she can't be returned, I would keep her and get some professional help, or just let her live a happy life in the field. I made it very clear to the breeder that as I keep my horses at home, I'd be hacking her out onto roads alone and I'd need her to be very safe and confident with traffic, and she was advertised as absolutely bombproof in traffic. I don't want to hack her out if I'm worried she may rear, and while I've dealt with nappy horses, I've never dealt with one where you're worried it will go up if you don't handle it properly!
orange gal
Member
Yes I'm so glad I decided to go on here, definitely worth the second opinions! I talked him through it on the phone and he said a contract of monthly payments would be expensive to write and if the dealer didn't pay we'd end up in court anyways. I explained I live far away (3h) from dealer, so difficult to sell from my place, and he said it should be viable with the internet, and to just have viewings take place here, which seems strange anyways tbh! I think small claims court is the likely end to this.
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
One thing I'm curious about is she came from a breeder rather than a dealer and what she was doing before being sold.
Breeders usually have 2 types of horses for sale:- youngstock they've bred or older horses that have been used for breeding that they are getting rid of because they are cutting down or bringing in other bloodlines. In both cases they may be very nice willing horses but will need work to get them to the point that they would suitable for a novice owner or be a reliable hack. It's not the same as a horse that has been hacking out regularly in a private home.
Breeders usually have 2 types of horses for sale:- youngstock they've bred or older horses that have been used for breeding that they are getting rid of because they are cutting down or bringing in other bloodlines. In both cases they may be very nice willing horses but will need work to get them to the point that they would suitable for a novice owner or be a reliable hack. It's not the same as a horse that has been hacking out regularly in a private home.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
how old is she (I presume she had never been away from the breeders?)
the alfa A is a potential red flag.
the alfa A is a potential red flag.
pansymouse
Well-Known Member
Did you have bloods taken with the vetting? My friend bought a lovely horse from a dealer who turned into a nightmare almost the moment he arrived. She had the bloods tested and they came back positive for 'bute; he had kissing spines and was unsafe to ride (I know he had a damned good go at killing me before we found out what the matter was). The dealer tried the you can send him back and exchange him for a different horse ploy first but my friend obviously didn't trust them and refused. They then pulled the no money to refund stunt so she went to the small claims court and won but accepted a court negotiated payment plan; they still didn't pay so she engaged bailiffs to enforce the payments. She got all her money back including costs but it too 18 months in all. The bailiffs were very canny - they went when the yard is busy with prospective buyers and were very obvious why they are there - they always got the payment in moments without a fuss.
Lipglosspukka
Well-Known Member
Nooooo.
You could end up with no money, no horse and a court case that ends nowhere. It's all well and good taking her to court and slapping her with a CCJ, but if she has no money or assets then you still won't get your money back.
You could end up with no money, no horse and a court case that ends nowhere. It's all well and good taking her to court and slapping her with a CCJ, but if she has no money or assets then you still won't get your money back.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
But you won’t be paying for a dangerous horse you can’t ride for months on end. It’s called cutting your losses.
I’d get the horse returned pronto. Paperwork to support they are owners and owe you a refund. Then chase via the courts for as long as you can be bothered
orange gal
Member
I agree massively. She's 9, and apparently they never planned on selling her, and wanted to use as a broodmare. Most of their sales are youngstock. I find it very interesting she was never bred, and instead being sold, but didn't enquire further at the time as I have no interest in breeding. They said she'd been ridden regularly, and a volunteer had fallen in love with her over the summer (couldn't buy). They said they were selling purely for financial reasons, and cutting down their breeding program, but she was sold as a ridden horse as they said that had primarily been her life. I didn't advertise myself as a novice, as I've volunteered/worked with/had horses all my life (certainly nowhere near a pro, just lots of time riding and being around all sorts), but I made it very clear that right now all I'd like to do with a horse is have a big cuddly pet I can hack and maybe muck about at local shows, nothing that needs schooling or any kind of intensive work by anyone, as I just don't have the time for that. I'm not nervous in general as a rider, and she was sold as energetic and liking jumping (not a plod) but bombproof in traffic and overall sweet to handle. No idea why she's become a little devil!
Wishfilly
Well-Known Member
I find it a bit odd that she got to the age of 9 without being bred from. I can't decide if that would be a red flag to me or not, but it definitely feels like something about their story doesn't quite add up.
Are they able to put you in touch with the "volunteer"?
Are they able to put you in touch with the "volunteer"?
AmyMay
Situation normal
Deleted
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Id agree with ester, the alfalfa could be an issue. Many horses find it troublesome. It could be that the proteins in it are digested in the hind gut instead of fore, and can thereforecause gut distress and behavioural issues.
Some horses turn from sweeties to devils with certain feeds. Ditch the copra and Alfa-A and give it a week to see if there’s any changes.
Its worth trying, while she’s still with you.
Some horses turn from sweeties to devils with certain feeds. Ditch the copra and Alfa-A and give it a week to see if there’s any changes.
Its worth trying, while she’s still with you.
orange gal
Member
I haven't fed her anything while she's been with me, I only was able to ride her once when the saddle fitters came (I have no tack) and they didn't want to sell to me as they didn't think it was feasible to keep her, so I haven't been keeping her on the feed as the breeder said it was only when she was ridden. All she's had here is grass and a bit of hay with the others. xx
onemoretime
Well-Known Member
Completely agree with this. The breeder must give you your money back and take the horse back. Otherwise you need to take legal action ie small claims if horse was under 10k. Please do not get mixed up with agent selling the problem will come back to haunt you.
orange gal
Member
Yes I know what you mean, it felt strange. She definitely wasn't advertised as a broodmare, purely as a ridden horse with no mention of breeding. My guess would be she can't be bred-its not like they ran out of money to breed, they've been breeding every year including 2020 so I'm not sure why she'd not be included. They seem genuine but of course they'll always protect themselves first, but I agree that is fishy.
orange gal
Member
Absolutely agree as well! I think everyone is in agreement that is a dangerous game, so I will be demanding full refund and if not given will just go straight to small claims at this point.