Horse being returned to dealer (contract needed)...?

[DabDab]

Bank transfer! Thank goodness, glad to have a paper trail, although it was to a personal account, not a business one, although from others I spoke to seemed normal.

Might be worth calling your bank to ask if they have any purchase protection on bank transfers. It varies bank to bank, but might make it easier to extract the money back from her

 

[Wishfilly]

Yes I know what you mean, it felt strange. She definitely wasn't advertised as a broodmare, purely as a ridden horse with no mention of breeding. My guess would be she can't be bred-its not like they ran out of money to breed, they've been breeding every year including 2020 so I'm not sure why she'd not be included. They seem genuine but of course they'll always protect themselves first, but I agree that is fishy.

I wonder if they tried to breed but she never took? Which might, possibly, suggest some kind of hormonal issue- these can lead to behaviour problems.

Obviously just speculation, though!

 

[orange gal]

I have a question as a follow up for anyone continuing to watch this thread:

Planning on demanding refund upon return of horse and then if not accepted to go directly to small claims as that seems to have had the most success from other people's descriptions. Should I return the horse now? Before having received payment? Or wait to take the issue to small claims before I return her? I am assuming I keep her on my property, but I saw a post above recommending I return her immediately and then demand money.

 

[onemoretime]

A happy hack that rears, kicks and bites... these poor horses breeders throw out there mis-advertised ?

Evidently the equine dodgy breeder’s list is ever growing, and whatever ‘measures/legalities’ currently in place to supposedly ‘protect’ buyers/horses from misconduct isn’t working at all.

There’s no other way but to start naming and shaming, reporting constantly to Trading Standards UK, taking breeders to court, contacting local MP’s to take the issue to legislative review process to make being a ‘horse dealer’ far more difficult than it is now. Premises checked, dealer tax hike, the whole industry needs a serious shake-up as these threads are FAR too common and completely heart-breaking for all involved, especially the poor animals who the dealers evidently have bugger-all regard for.

Poor buyers and horses are constantly suffering through the industry and action has to be taken at a higher level to stop this merry-go-round-from-hell that is the horse breeder/dealer industry.

From a grassroots perspective all horse lovers can do immediately is boycott dealers completely. Buy privately, it seems safer!

?

Whilst I agree with your post, unfortunately you can still be done buying private and have less protection than buying from a dealer. Unfortunately there are so many unscrupulous people in the horse industry with no care whatsoever for the poor horses they are passing around. To the OP, please do not blame yourself, they must have known what the horse was like and its bad behaviour. I have been done by a dodgy dealer (poor horse was drugged up with bute) and I know that a lot of the top people have been done at some point in their lives unfortunately its life.

 

[orange gal]

I wonder if they tried to breed but she never took? Which might, possibly, suggest some kind of hormonal issue- these can lead to behaviour problems.

Obviously just speculation, though!

It definitely is interesting to ponder it! I wouldn't be surprised, their whole income is breeding, so it makes no sense to keep a horse and not breed it...

 

[orange gal]

Whilst I agree with your post, unfortunately you can still be done buying private and have less protection than buying from a dealer. Unfortunately there are so many unscrupulous people in the horse industry with no care whatsoever for the poor horses they are passing around. To the OP, please do not blame yourself, they must have known what the horse was like and its bad behaviour. I have been done by a dodgy dealer (poor horse was drugged up with bute) and I know that a lot of the top people have been done at some point in their lives unfortunately its life.

Thank you, and to everyone, I appreciate the reassurance, I just keep going over the situation and kicking myself wondering if there was some giant red flag I missed! It seems so easy for a seller to lunge a horse for an hour and present it as a sweetie, when in reality its just exhausted! I've actually seen a few ads from private and dealers offering 1 week trials, might do something like that before I buy again, its just impossible to get a proper read from one or two viewings!

 

[paddy555]

and she lived out in a big herd before. My thought is maybe she's missing that? The breeder seemed genuinely shocked she displayed that behaviour, and did offer a few things on the herbal remedies/psychic route, which I gave a try as a last resort and really didn't do much.

my guess is that is your problem, or at least hers. You have taken her away from everything she knew, she may not have travelled before put her in a strange situation albeit with your other horses but she simply cannot cope. She is misbehaving out of stress rather than rearing out of malice. She is not one of life's copers.

I bought a similar gelding as a 4yo.. I had watched him in his field for 2 years, he belonged to a neighbour so very close to our place, I had visited him, handled him and I even led him around his field by his mane only without even a rope. He seemed the perfect calm quiet horse. I led him home on my own, no back up, with no worries at all. He had lived with one other gelding, his very strong herd leader. In a big barn with ad lib big bales and access to a field. That all suited him perfectly. He was very calm and quiet. Walking him was a joy. Keen to go anywhere. He had been backed and very lightly ridden at the end of his 3rd year. His rider was excellent, his previous owner the same. There was nothing to say this was not perfection.

My yard is central to my fields which all open off it. My horses live in pairs but overall as a herd in that they can see each other and all come in together and are stabled at nights together. I didn't expect problems.
Led him into the yard, the others came to their gates to say hello and he freaked.
He simply couldn't cope with a stable even just to feed him, couldn't cope with so many other horses. He weaved (and still does) out of stress if the stable door is left shut.

I hadn't intended to ride him for several months just to lead and long rein him so getting on wasn't a problem but each time I took him out I had little doubt if I lost him he would belt off home and it wouldn't be to my home.

It took him years and even 11 years later he still hasn't really got the stable thing. He has a shelter, yard and a short track. He is also not one of life's copers.

Just trying to make the point that not all horses who have their earlier homes severely ingrained in them can cope with a change. Possibly this mare can't.

 

[onemoretime]

Did you have bloods taken with the vetting? My friend bought a lovely horse from a dealer who turned into a nightmare almost the moment he arrived. She had the bloods tested and they came back positive for 'bute; he had kissing spines and was unsafe to ride (I know he had a damned good go at killing me before we found out what the matter was). The dealer tried the you can send him back and exchange him for a different horse ploy first but my friend obviously didn't trust them and refused. They then pulled the no money to refund stunt so she went to the small claims court and won but accepted a court negotiated payment plan; they still didn't pay so she engaged bailiffs to enforce the payments. She got all her money back including costs but it too 18 months in all. The bailiffs were very canny - they went when the yard is busy with prospective buyers and were very obvious why they are there - they always got the payment in moments without a fuss.

That must have been very stressful for your friend but great work on the part of the bailiffs. I bought a horse who had been buted up to hide a serious back injury, the dealer also gave me 6 bags of chaff and nuts (6 meals in shopping bags) saying it was just for the change over, it was all laced with bute. We did get our money back only because my husband is a lawyer and went after her, he also took her for nearly 3k in costs but it was very stressful time for me and the poor horse was picked up and went straight on the boat that night to Ireland and through the Goresbridge sales the following friday. I will never forget the look of shock horror that he gave me went I handed the halter rope to the carrier, it was " OMG you're sending me away", it broke my heart.

 

[AmyMay]

Op, contact Michin on here. She’s been in a very similar situation and had a good outcome. You’ll have to message her.

 

[Gloi]

Can you get a letter from your solicitor to give to the breeder when you return her, detailing her issues, saying you are giving ownership back and asking for your money. You can then chase the money in small claims if they won't pay up.

 

[Winters100]

Yes, a full 5 stage vetting, and the vet liked her as well, said she was very willing, which was what I found when I tried her there. She wasn't schooled to a very high level, and a bit pudgy, but nothing I couldn't spend a bit of time working on. She shook her head twice but it didn't seem an issue, and the vet said nothing was wrong with her teeth etc.

She was only given 1/4 scoop each of Dengie Alfa A and Copra on days she was ridden and I haven't put her on anything. She lives out right now at my home with another horse and my two shetlands (which ironically are WAY less management!) and she lived out in a big herd before. My thought is maybe she's missing that? The breeder seemed genuinely shocked she displayed that behaviour, and did offer a few things on the herbal remedies/psychic route, which I gave a try as a last resort and really didn't do much.

And re your second message, I would love to keep her as I fell in love with the horse I thought I was getting, and if for whatever reason she can't be returned, I would keep her and get some professional help, or just let her live a happy life in the field. I made it very clear to the breeder that as I keep my horses at home, I'd be hacking her out onto roads alone and I'd need her to be very safe and confident with traffic, and she was advertised as absolutely bombproof in traffic. I don't want to hack her out if I'm worried she may rear, and while I've dealt with nappy horses, I've never dealt with one where you're worried it will go up if you don't handle it properly!

Well in all honesty it sounds like you have done all the right things and the horse is either a) just unsuitable or b) unable to settle in. I think the problem that you might have if you did keep her would be that you would never trust her and not have any enjoyment, hence my gut feeling would be to return the horse in whatever way you finally decide is the most likely to result in your money back and minimal risk. Sorry that this happened to you and really good luck.

 

[Melody Grey]

This all sounds potentially a bit ulcery to me. Get her on a decent gastric supplement and get her settled for a couple of weeks (if you have the time and want to try it?)- you might have a different horse. The stress of the move and change in herd could be playing out now through ulcers.

unfortunately I have a lot of experience with ulcers- Gastrokind would be a good place to start.

 

[Wishfilly]

I'm sure there are lots of possible solutions for this horse- but OP was sold a straight forward happy hacker.

If she has nowhere to ride but on the road, it can be really hard to sort out problems, because taking a risk on the roads can be really dangerous- and you might think you have the problem sorted, but realise it's not when you're halfway down the road.

There's nothing wrong with deciding the risk is too great and sending the horse back.

Also, by looking for a solution, it facilitates these dealers/breeders in doing the same over and over again.

 

[laura_nash]

Or they don’t disclose it, horse then rears for new owner and they come to you for a refund because horse is not as described/fit for purpose.

Or they don't disclose it, horse rears when a potential buyer is trying it, buyers comes off and breaks their back and they come to you for £10 million as you allowed them to get on your horse that was known to be a rearer.

 

[Northern Hare]

I haven't fed her anything while she's been with me, I only was able to ride her once when the saddle fitters came (I have no tack) and they didn't want to sell to me as they didn't think it was feasible to keep her, so I haven't been keeping her on the feed as the breeder said it was only when she was ridden. All she's had here is grass and a bit of hay with the others. xx

Hi Orange Gal, really sorry to hear of the problems you’re having with your new mare. Just reading through your posts, it certainly sounds like she was a lovely horse when you tried her.

Just a thought (and correct me if I’m wrong here), but it sounds as though you’ve only had the opportunity to ride her the one time since she arrived with you, when the saddler visited as you had no tack for her.

If that’s the case, and your efforts to return her don’t work out, would you be prepared to give her behaviour the benefit of the doubt, on account of her being in a new home etc? Could you perhaps temporarily move her to a nearby livery yard that has a school etc, where you could lunge her before riding her, and get her into regular work to see if that would help her settle and hopefully her behaviour return to how she was when you tried her?

 

[orange gal]

Hi Orange Gal, really sorry to hear of the problems you’re having with your new mare. Just reading through your posts, it certainly sounds like she was a lovely horse when you tried her.

Just a thought (and correct me if I’m wrong here), but it sounds as though you’ve only had the opportunity to ride her the one time since she arrived with you, when the saddler visited as you had no tack for her.

If that’s the case, and your efforts to return her don’t work out, would you be prepared to give her behaviour the benefit of the doubt, on account of her being in a new home etc? Could you perhaps temporarily move her to a nearby livery yard that has a school etc, where you could lunge her before riding her, and get her into regular work to see if that would help her settle and hopefully her behaviour return to how she was when you tried her?

Yes she absolutely was, one reason why this is so heartbreaking! I'm no longer able to devote a lot of time to working with different horses, so I want a hack/pet and who I plan on never selling, and she seemed wonderful. If for some reason we could not return her, I would absolutely keep her on and do exactly what you've suggested, and never sell her on. I do believe she would possibly come around after a lot of work and time, and I don't know whether her behaviour is because of settling or because of other things, or both. She certainly isn't evil!

If this issue cropped up further down the line I'd be less set on demanding a return, but it has been so bad from the offset and it hasn't improved. She was a lot of money for me to spend on a horse, but the idea was she would have been brought on well from a good breeder (??) and was going to be my friend for life. My point is I could have bought a youngster or a project for a challenge, and paid less. The price isn't everything of course, but I only allowed myself to pay that amount because I thought I was making a good decision (be suspicious of a bargain etc etc)

But absolutely, as Keira 888 said, these problems can be fixed with enough time! I wouldn't give up hope in that scenario But it's not the one I have the time or resources for right now, so it would be a challenge xx

 

[Wishfilly]

Yes she absolutely was, one reason why this is so heartbreaking! I'm no longer able to devote a lot of time to working with different horses, so I want a hack/pet and who I plan on never selling, and she seemed wonderful. If for some reason we could not return her, I would absolutely keep her on and do exactly what you've suggested, and never sell her on. I do believe she would possibly come around after a lot of work and time, and I don't know whether her behaviour is because of settling or because of other things, or both. She certainly isn't evil!

If this issue cropped up further down the line I'd be less set on demanding a return, but it has been so bad from the offset and it hasn't improved. She was a lot of money for me to spend on a horse, but the idea was she would have been brought on well from a good breeder (??) and was going to be my friend for life. My point is I could have bought a youngster or a project for a challenge, and paid less. The price isn't everything of course, but I only allowed myself to pay that amount because I thought I was making a good decision (be suspicious of a bargain etc etc)

But absolutely, as Keira 888 said, these problems can be fixed with enough time! I wouldn't give up hope in that scenario But it's not the one I have the time or resources for right now, so it would be a challenge xx

Just wanted to say I don't think you're at all unreasonable for feeling this way- if you have spent money on a horse who is advertised as safe because that is what you want, then that is what you are entitled to.

Not everyone has the time/ability/inclination to work with a horse that "may" come good, sadly. And many of us cannot risk working with a horse that has a high chance of injuring us (I know all horses can cause an accident, but it is possible to minimise the risk).

It sounds like you tried to make a sensible choice for your current circumstances, and it is such a shame that has not paid off.

I hope you are able to get a decent outcome from the breeder.

 

[MuffettMischief]

This seems like a real shame for all involved. You, because you haven’t got the horse you thought you had bought and it’s a huge shame that things haven’t worked out, but the more I read the more I think the mare just hasn’t coped well with the move at all and that isn’t anyone’s fault. Hopefully you can all come to a solution that works best for you all. How long have you had her? I wonder if she would be a different horse if just given time to settle into her new surroundings and come to terms with things. Could you get a pro rider to come every day for a week or so and see if she settles into a routine and goes back to how she was when you tried her? I know that’s not ideal BUT if you aren’t getting anywhere with a return/refund it may be worth a try as she might surprise you.
As a side note - when we moved our angelic gelding to a new yard, from
Big busy yard to small with only my other two there, he was unrecognisable. I mean from a horse you could put your granny on to a fire breathing dragon that took two people to tack up. Once settled, month/6 weeks he was back to his normal self. If we had just bought him we would have thought we’d been done over!

 

[Northern Hare]

Yes she absolutely was, one reason why this is so heartbreaking! I'm no longer able to devote a lot of time to working with different horses, so I want a hack/pet and who I plan on never selling, and she seemed wonderful. If for some reason we could not return her, I would absolutely keep her on and do exactly what you've suggested, and never sell her on. I do believe she would possibly come around after a lot of work and time, and I don't know whether her behaviour is because of settling or because of other things, or both. She certainly isn't evil!

If this issue cropped up further down the line I'd be less set on demanding a return, but it has been so bad from the offset and it hasn't improved. She was a lot of money for me to spend on a horse, but the idea was she would have been brought on well from a good breeder (??) and was going to be my friend for life. My point is I could have bought a youngster or a project for a challenge, and paid less. The price isn't everything of course, but I only allowed myself to pay that amount because I thought I was making a good decision (be suspicious of a bargain etc etc)

But absolutely, as Keira 888 said, these problems can be fixed with enough time! I wouldn't give up hope in that scenario But it's not the one I have the time or resources for right now, so it would be a challenge xx

Hi Orange Gal!

Thanks for your reply! I can really understand why you feel that she is unsuitable, especially her behaviour since she arrived with you.

I hope all progresses ok with your negotiations to return her. ??

 

[orange gal]

Just wanted to say I don't think you're at all unreasonable for feeling this way- if you have spent money on a horse who is advertised as safe because that is what you want, then that is what you are entitled to.

Not everyone has the time/ability/inclination to work with a horse that "may" come good, sadly. And many of us cannot risk working with a horse that has a high chance of injuring us (I know all horses can cause an accident, but it is possible to minimise the risk).

It sounds like you tried to make a sensible choice for your current circumstances, and it is such a shame that has not paid off.

I hope you are able to get a decent outcome from the breeder.

Yes exactly! I really didn't want to go into this by biting off more than I can chew, I've seen plenty of times friends who have a hope of bringing on a youngster/difficult/sensitive horse only to end up with something that doesn't reach the level they wanted or even worse, who misbehaves or is dangerous.

I do believe the best thing for each horse is to end up in a home that has sufficient resources and experience for it, and while I'd love the reward of bringing on a difficult horse, I also can't provide for it! I hope she is sold on to an experienced home with these issues advertised on the tin who is prepared to work on her As you said, I also don't want to risk her souring further if the wrong solutions are tried! xx

 

[Winters100]

In all honesty at my age (and after a couple of accidents) I would not be at all keen to hang on to a known rearer. I do think that the horse might come good with time, but were I in your circumstances I think I would probably return the horse. It is truly wonderful when we read about people such as Kiera, where perseverance has paid off, but we should not forget that there are other cases when owners do all the right things and the horse is just never a fit.

 

[AUB]

Regarding difficulty to settle: I’ve 30 + years of experience and have known my mare for years. But when we moved yards 2,5 years ago, she developed seperation anxiety to a point where I couldn’t take her in for the farrier or tack her up without bringing in her best horse friend also. Never had any difficulties with that at our old yard.
It’s only just this autumn, after more than 2 years at our yard, that she’s okay to come in alone. Just to say that sometimes, even with years of experience a horse you know well and can take out to competitions without any issues, settling completely in at a new yard can be difficult.

A yard move can set some horses off. Your horse might be just exactly what you thought you bought when it has settled in. And in time you might be able to get just the horse you dream of. But it can of course also be that the seller has lied to you about one or two things about the horse... I totally get if you feel more comfortable returning it and don’t wish to put in a lot of work in the hope of actually getting the horse you thought you bought.