Horse had rotational fall with daughter today, opinions please .

[hairycob]

OK OP - experience & outcome straight up.
The whole description sounds very like my friends horse, Tripped a lot, bit weak on one side but a youngster (5) & green so to be expected, otherwise seemed sound. Fell/tripped/slipped a couple of times once the hacks started getting longer (2+ hours). Last fall left him lame. Sent to Cambridge Vet School for scintigraphy - severe longstanding pelvic damage, pts at 6 after 8 months of rehab as not improving.

 

[throughtheforest]

Hi OP i have expérience with cobs tripping and one fall too from a very unbalanced gelding who liked to go down hill.
What i looked at was confirmation which is something you cant change, this certainly played a part but what I found to improve the downhill cobs way of going dramatically was long-reining and lunging with 2 lines. He was a different horse afterwards and never fell or tripped again.
Coupled with what you are already doing I really recommend you try it.

Best of luck.

Amy

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Thanks for your experiences.....
15 miles is nothing for her and you are correct she can't track up, I've always been told it's good news by physio as she's not lame with it, she was unable to cross her hind legs in a tight circle on one rein , but after treatment ( 2 sessions ) this recovered , and she is even in her pelvis now. The squaring of her toe was during this time, and also went away , so we hunted of a year and the mare didnt trip once , really found her feet, and fifth leg, hunted over all sorts of terrain, and never came home before 4 pm , so you can imagine the miles, am sure a long standing issue would have become apparent.
2 weeks ago she wiped out on the road, all 4 legs slipped to left on very shiny wet Tarmac in walk and she landed on her side , we fell very heavily .... Was on the way home she was knuckling that hind slightly for about 5 paces in trot then it cleared, I literally put it down to a dead leg, 450 kg of horse slamming the toad.
Fun ride 4 days later she was fine, didn't trip once , but slight knuckling on that hind for maybe one pace when she walked down a steep hill, alot of horses do this , so wasnt panic stricken and was professionally trotted up.
Yesterday didnt trip once, and was on homeward stretch, daughter said she was raring to go, pulling let her go for a canter on smooth ground, maybe slight undulation said she was holding back if my other horse got left behind, when he caught up she would bomb on ( mare does nap like this ) more interested in other horse rather than her jockey . Then she nose plants ground, bum up in air, over and into her side, the momentum of canter sent her flying, she's assuming it was a trip. Absolutely no leg dragging today, full of life and eager, all seems a bit bizaar to me. Vets have physio have and did give full clearance for full work as the mare was sound and even, told nothing wrong after this two initial treatments. Further treatments have been just to make sure she's building her muscles correctly and make sure no aches and pains as she went from tiny to lots if muscles, my physio says it's like any sports person she will need regular physio. She is naturally on her forehand and i get her in check if rushing to prevent tripping.
Lesson last week we worked on straightness in walk and trot , leg yielding and a simple exercise to get her stepping from behind from a half halt, instructor said she's getting it, and was pleased she wasn't falling all over the place working in circles and she's carrying herself now.
All positive really , and tripping went from bad to nothing over a year , I will investigate it, it scared me , my daughter and my mare was shaken, but I truly think it's a green thing, just because she's 8 doesn't mean she should be treated differently than a 4 yr old .
I think in hindsight which is a wonderful thing, I should have had a thorough exam post road splatting, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Thankyou all for taking the time to tell me about your experiences

 

[EstherYoung]

This thread has confused me.

However, in an attempt to answer what I think the original question was meant to be... Two examples of falls for you.

1) Our horse went spectacularly splat in the field. Checked out by the physio, he'd jarred himself across the diagonal. Given an 8 week ban on schooling in a school (ie no circles, just straight lines) and told to work on stretching etc out hacking. Followed instructions to the letter. Horse fine.

2) Friend's horse went spectacularly splat being broken in badly. Resulted in injury induced wobblers and sacroilliac strain. Horse PTS.

So it could be sommat, or it could be nowt. As horse has a history of tripping/hind end weakness, my money would be on 'sommat'. Get the vet.

I hope the horse comes right.

Re The comments about 15 miles. For a sound healthy horse, even if they're not that fit, 15 miles is absolutely nowt, particularly if ridden steadily. They'll walk that in the field. However, for a horse with issues 15 miles is a long way. Hills, jumps, deep going or rocky moorland will all add to the difficulty level. I always say that it was as rewarding and just as much of an effort to get our old screwed up TB fit enough to do 15 mile pleasure rides as it was to get my Arab to advanced endurance.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Mare when I got her





Mare last season

 

[AmyMay]

Gorgeous!

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Have only read half the posts but will say that having a vet work up on her would be the best thing in my book.

My elephant of a horse used to trip, he was unbalanced and lazy and schooling out hacking helped that, lots of walk trot transitions didn't canter for a long while until trot was good, then onl little burst. Leg yielding round patches of grass etc all helped build up his back end. When he is tired he still trips but you just need your leg on to make him pick his feet up.

He had one back trip after a long hack and then kept lock up a back leg but by the time the vet came out it had unlocked so it's was a 'work him till he breaks more' type of thing as he was sound before and after the lock. Wasn't until he stayed locked long enough for vet to get there and agree yes he has locking stifle and no it didn't happen before his fall that we have a direction on where to scan. Turns out he has torn one of his patella ligaments.

Sometimes it's hard to know where to start when it isn't all the time but a complete work up of her hind end would a good place to start.

Hope you get answers.

 

[siennamum]

I think her conformation would make it hard for her tostay off the forehand. I bet that is a large part of your problem

 

[MDB]

1)4 mile exercise hack, half trot and half walking, she was super duper fiery and up for it, no tripping.

2)next day an hours lesson in walk and trot, just working in straightness.

3) 2 days later she went for a 9 mile ride and about 4 miles from home she slammed the ground on her side, my daughter was behind and said she watched her back legs slip to the left on a shiny Tarmac and front legs went same way, these things happen, was bad fall but horse slipped up, trotting short bursts on way home she not lifting her right hind fully for road clearance, call physio.

4) next day bring her out of field, trot her up, everything back to normal, must just have been tightness and that's her weak leg.

5) 3 days later ... 15 mile Funride, no tripping but last mile that leg got tired again

6) 4 days later ( today) trip to Exmoor so 50 mins in trailer then 15 miles of all down hill in walk, horse absolutely full of it, long climb up to moor , and mile walking on flat then canter with my 14 yr old daughter on board, flat even ground good going, suddenly see horse face plant the ground and up and over in a head stand, miraculously both fine if not a little stunned and confidence a bit rock bottom for mare and daughter .

Well.. I am a total novice when it comes to horse care, however, I am an expert in rehabilitation of the human variety so here is my take on it....

Your horse had a really bad fall on the tarmac, and obviously injured (to some degree) a leg which has a pre-existing problem as you said she was struggling to lift it on the way home. Furthermore, with such a fall, who knows what else she may have strained or tweaked without necessarily showing obviously signs to you.

Inflammation in the body (after injury) builds and generally peaks at 48-72 hours post injury. This is precisely when you went for another longish hack and she was weak again on the same leg although didn't trip. Nothing was done in the three days between tarmac fall and this hack... no in hand walks, stretches or checking over to ensure stiffness didn't build up or to see if there were new signs of issues elsewhere??

Then nothing for four days and another hack and boom!

When a human has a fall or injury, even a sprained ankle it can take up to 8 weeks to resolve.. yet your horse was back to normal workload in 3 days just when any inflammation will be peaking.

Personally I think it is even more important to take it slowly and thoroughly with animals.. dogs, cats, horses... because they can't say to you "oh yeah and I also feel a bit stiff in my shoulder" or such like.

Good luck, I hope you get your horse sorted.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Thanks Amy, she is not only gorgeous but has a temperment to die for all so, I haven't slept all night mulling things over, am trying not to panic and tell myself she has improved over the last yr not got worse !! Sienna unfortunately she will have to work with what god gave her .
I have decided if she he gets a clean bill of health I will go back to basics with my instructor, hunting has done it's job, given her foot awareness and built strength, and she's grown up....
Now to refine it and set her up for life with a good bottom.

 

[Tnavas]

I would consider having a chiro look at her neck. I've had two TB's that have been trippers despite quality foot care.

Both had a history of physical trauma, one got cast under a fence with legs either side of a post, the other nosedived over a hurdle during jump training.

The first took around 18 months of fortnightly manipulation, 7th cervical was out. Then after crashing with me in similar situation as your daughters pony was manipulated Nader general anaesthetic. 100% sorted.

Second horse required sedation for the first few manipulation so as he would just lift his front feet off the ground and move himself into the direction the chiro was trying to manipulate his neck. It took a year to sort out , but was finally 100%.

One of the things I've done for many years is have the chiro look over any horse immediately after a fall. Sort damage as fast as possible to allow muscles to recover with minimal damage.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Well.. I am a total novice when it comes to horse care, however, I am an expert in rehabilitation of the human variety so here is my take on it....

Your horse had a really bad fall on the tarmac, and obviously injured (to some degree) a leg which has a pre-existing problem as you said she was struggling to lift it on the way home. Furthermore, with such a fall, who knows what else she may have strained or tweaked without necessarily showing obviously signs to you.

Inflammation in the body (after injury) builds and generally peaks at 48-72 hours post injury. This is precisely when you went for another longish hack and she was weak again on the same leg although didn't trip. Nothing was done in the three days between tarmac fall and this hack... no in hand walks, stretches or checking over to ensure stiffness didn't build up or to see if there were new signs of issues elsewhere??

Then nothing for four days and another hack and boom!

When a human has a fall or injury, even a sprained ankle it can take up to 8 weeks to resolve.. yet your horse was back to normal workload in 3 days just when any inflammation will be peaking.

Personally I think it is even more important to take it slowly and thoroughly with animals.. dogs, cats, horses... because they can't say to you "oh yeah and I also feel a bit stiff in my shoulder" or such like.

Good luck, I hope you get your horse sorted.

Thanks for taking the time to right such a long reply, the mare is on 24 /7. Turnout, with 3 youngsters so they do plenty of hooning around , we have hilly fields so our horses stay pretty exercised , also my daughter took her in 3 10 min hacks to check for lameness and like I said before the vet watched her trot up.... Interesting re time scales for stiffening up...
She's on full rest now until she is seen so time will tell .

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

I would consider having a chiro look at her neck. I've had two TB's that have been trippers despite quality foot care.

Both had a history of physical trauma, one got cast under a fence with legs either side of a post, the other nosedived over a hurdle during jump training.



The first took around 18 months of fortnightly manipulation, 7th cervical was out. Then after crashing with me in similar situation as your daughters pony was manipulated Nader general anaesthetic. 100% sorted.

Second horse required sedation for the first few manipulation so as he would just lift his front feet off the ground and move himself into the direction the chiro was trying to manipulate his neck. It took a year to sort out , but was finally 100%.

One of the things I've done for many years is have the chiro look over any horse immediately after a fall. Sort damage as fast as possible to allow muscles to recover with minimal damage.

I've had a chiro in the last for my dog, but never for my horse so only massages and physio , thanks I will ask my vet

 

[AmyMay]

Well.. I am a total novice when it comes to horse care, however, I am an expert in rehabilitation of the human variety so here is my take on it....

Your horse had a really bad fall on the tarmac, and obviously injured (to some degree) a leg which has a pre-existing problem as you said she was struggling to lift it on the way home. Furthermore, with such a fall, who knows what else she may have strained or tweaked without necessarily showing obviously signs to you.

Inflammation in the body (after injury) builds and generally peaks at 48-72 hours post injury. This is precisely when you went for another longish hack and she was weak again on the same leg although didn't trip. Nothing was done in the three days between tarmac fall and this hack... no in hand walks, stretches or checking over to ensure stiffness didn't build up or to see if there were new signs of issues elsewhere??

Then nothing for four days and another hack and boom!

When a human has a fall or injury, even a sprained ankle it can take up to 8 weeks to resolve.. yet your horse was back to normal workload in 3 days just when any inflammation will be peaking.

Personally I think it is even more important to take it slowly and thoroughly with animals.. dogs, cats, horses... because they can't say to you "oh yeah and I also feel a bit stiff in my shoulder" or such like.

Good luck, I hope you get your horse sorted.

Really interesting post MDB.

 

[atlantis]

I haven't properly read the entire post and only have 1 point to contribute.

I am a Physio (human not animal) but the principles of rehabilitation remain the same.

That is... If something is hard to do (jumping, work in a Pessoa say) then it's worth doing so that it isn't hard any more.

HOWEVER (and its a big but, but politely put... Hopefully) QUALITY of movement, not quantity is important. So if you can't do an exercise for whatever reason then it needs to be broken down into manageable chucks, or an easier, suitable, alternative exercise be selected that works the same muscles in the same way but is achievable!! The work can then be built up.

So if you are a horse that is unable to jump as it is too hard due to incorrect muscles, avoiding jumping altogether will not help build the correct muscles. Instead something like canter poles, progressing to tiny grid work SLOWLY would be worthwhile. If a number of canter poles isn't achievable then start with 1 pole, or lots of walk poles as it is EASIER!!!

If the Pessoa isn't working for your mare then I would expect the Physio to show you suitable alternatives. Maybe walk in the Pessoa, maybe lunging in walk with the Pessoa with someone leading, working on QUALITY of movent. Always keeping sessions short as weak muscles TIRE easily. These are just suggestions as I am NOT a qualified vet Physio and haven't laid eyes on your mare.

I'm not sure this is even relevant as you are getting a full work up from your vet now and she has fallen twice and may well have sustained an injury (or an additional one). However I wanted to comment!!! One thing I will add is that if she has a weakness, long hacks will tire her quickly, the stronger muscles and (incorrect) stronger movement patterns will take over and yes, she will be more likely to trip, slip, fall etc.

I wish you, your lovely mare and daughter all the best. Hope this gets resolved soon.

 

[atlantis]

Oh and totally agree with everything MDB said too!!!

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Oh and totally agree with everything MDB said too!!!

Thanks, and you make perfect sense!
I've just spoken to the vet, not going to do anything with her until we find out she is in good health

 

[atlantis]

Great!!! Then when she does come back into work, do the stuff she finds hard, slowly and progressively. She'll be able to cope with whatever is thrown at her then. She's gorgeous!!! I'm a sucker for a coloured cob (check my avatar)!!

 

[Casey76]

So just to summarise:

You bought the mare in Feb 2013 @ 6 years old and she'd had 4 foals
During that summer she tripped a lot
She had a season hunting and the tripping improved.
She was rested from May 2014 through July 2014
More recently she completely lost her back end on a hack, then appeared to have trouble fully articulating a hind limb on the way home
she then did 3 hacks of increaseing difficulty, culminating in a rotational fall.

During all of this time she has had persistent left hind limb weakness (not tracking up/squaring off toe) which hasn't resolved while under physio/vet.

To me you have two issues... the hind end problem and the tripping. Tripping is usually a forelimb/shoulder issue if not attributed to being unfit/fatigued.

When was the saddle last checked? Pinching behind the withers can exacerbate a tendency to trip.

I find it puzzling that the physio has basically shrugged off the hind limb weakness "it's just her action" there are plenty of exercises which can be done to compensate for it and to improve the weakness. If she finds it difficult, then yes she's going to object, no one really enjoys physiotherapy, but it is done for a reason. My mare is very righthanded, so she gets worked on the left side for twice as long as the right to balance things out (so start on the left and finish on the left - the work on the right is a "breather")

BTW, I would get the vet for a comprehensive check up after a rotational fall, just to make sure that there wasn't an unseen injury.

 

[SadKen]

Leaving all the earlier stuff aside, it sounds like a pelvic injury to me. I knew of one with exactly these troubles. The unusual muscling up at the back end was very apparent in him; it's an adaptation as other muscles step in to do a compensatory job. He also couldn't lunge effectively on one rein, and couldn't track up with one particularly weak hind limb. It turned out to be a pelvic fracture sustained while he was a youngster, which had healed as the bones grew but was never right. He's been a field companion since as he'd never really be able to do the job he was supposed to do. I really hope this isn't the case for yours OP, but it might be worth asking your vet to consider it as a possibility. This would also explain why a pessoa is difficult to work in, as it pushes the horse into an action that they simply can't perform with a damaged pelvis.

I should also mention that rotational falls in canter also have effects on the pelvis - the one I had the misfortune to witness was a canter over moorland where the horse put a foot down a rabbit hole, resulting in a rotational fall and a severely broken pelvis. That one was PTS where he was.

Bit of a chicken and egg scenario, but could tripping have caused a pelvic injury or possibly the slide on the road exacerbated something that's underlying?

Good luck, I hope you find out what it is. It would probably be helpful for others if you could pop back and tell us what it was too, when it's resolved.

 

[WindyStacks]

Long-term issues aside - which I'm sure this mare unfortunately has, it's just bloody "puppy farms" isn't it? Badly bred mare foals 4 others before she's even had a saddle on her back. Meanwhile well-meaning soul buys damaged mare and so the cycle continues...

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

Long-term issues aside - which I'm sure this mare unfortunately has, it's just bloody "puppy farms" isn't it? Badly bred mare foals 4 others before she's even had a saddle on her back. Meanwhile well-meaning soul buys damaged mare and so the cycle continues...

We probably should have left her there, but she was miserable, downtrodden and neglected I don't regret buying her, but yep a sucker!

The mare is to have a few weeks on field rest, to allow any stiffness/bruising etc to run its course, shes completely sound today and content in the field, had a lie down, roll etc and normal.

Then the vet will start at the hooves, he said best to start there as obvious cause could be navicular, apparently they start around this time.. wants xrays and flexion tests and to see her working.
This mare wont be backed until she has a clean bill of health, if she doesnt get a clean bill of health then we will cross that bridge when we come to it, but her riding career would be over.

Need to start somewhere... feet obvious place apparently! Wasn't my regular vet so mine will be back to assess. He said long toes wouldnt have been a problem as hers are rolled and 6 weeks abolutely fine....

Fingers crossed her life is just beginning, bless her, for the record we had a fantastic season last year, loves hunting, really great at her job, not one stumble or trip, perfect manners... we had a blast and if thats what i managed to give her from her previous miserable existence then I don't care, her little pricked ears have been worth it.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

So just to summarise:

You bought the mare in Feb 2013 @ 6 years old and she'd had 4 foals
During that summer she tripped a lot
She had a season hunting and the tripping improved.
She was rested from May 2014 through July 2014
More recently she completely lost her back end on a hack, then appeared to have trouble fully articulating a hind limb on the way home
she then did 3 hacks of increaseing difficulty, culminating in a rotational fall.

During all of this time she has had persistent left hind limb weakness (not tracking up/squaring off toe) which hasn't resolved while under physio/vet.

To me you have two issues... the hind end problem and the tripping. Tripping is usually a forelimb/shoulder issue if not attributed to being unfit/fatigued.

When was the saddle last checked? Pinching behind the withers can exacerbate a tendency to trip.

I find it puzzling that the physio has basically shrugged off the hind limb weakness "it's just her action" there are plenty of exercises which can be done to compensate for it and to improve the weakness. If she finds it difficult, then yes she's going to object, no one really enjoys physiotherapy, but it is done for a reason. My mare is very righthanded, so she gets worked on the left side for twice as long as the right to balance things out (so start on the left and finish on the left - the work on the right is a "breather")

BTW, I would get the vet for a comprehensive check up after a rotational fall, just to make sure that there wasn't an unseen injury.

Last saddle fitting was 4 weeks ago, and every 3 mths before that as shes been changing shape so massively.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

finds the left rein difficult physio recommended Pessoa work and schooling to work her ample bottom , I haven't used a Pessoa on her, but have lunged her lightly, she was great on right rein but very naughty on left as she finds it hard,

I am so pleased to hear that op is going to have full vet work-up on this mare.

My antennae prickled when I read the mare described as 'naughty' because she finds it physically difficult to work on the left rein. This may be just forum shorthand for bucks/turns in/stand up on back legs/ et, etc but I usually find that the words used give an insight into the way the poster thinks.
Imo, that is a bit like calling a dyslexic child naughty for reading aloud badly, as if they are doing it wilfully. I guess that is why the mare has been worked as hard as she has, when personally, I would have had a full work-up months back.

I hope the situation is resolved satisfactorily but wouldn't be at all surprised if this whole situation stems from immature/difficult foaling.

 

[Devonshire dumpling]

I think you misunderstood my speech, I said shes naughty because she finds it hard, therefore showing an understanding that shes not being naughty really, just finding it difficult...
She just doesnt want to work on that rein, she doesnt buck, rear or run off, just bit head shaky, and looks disunited.

I don't think any animal is every naughty, they do not have human emotions, what we call naughty is their way of telling you something is wrong, for example a dog who destroys the house might have separation anxiety and looks forward to the telling off when the owner comes home, even negative attention is good attention.

Horses don't think like humans, they don't behave naughty, they react to a situation....

I think we have flogged this post to death now, will update people in a few weeks.
Thanks

 

[AmyMay]

Atlantis - another really interesting post. Thanks.

 

[tobiano1984]

Hi I haven't read through all the replies so sorry if this has been discussed/eliminated already, but if it was my horse I'd take it barefoot - especially as a cob. Mine are all barefoot (including off the track TBs) and none of them trip, whereas a friend's coloured cob tripped all the time in shoes and then she went barefoot (at age 7) and he is now Mr SureFooted and trots down road hills and across all country.

Another girl on my yard had a warmblood she bought for £500 because the stud was going to shoot him as he had navicular. She took him barefoot against vet recommendations and 5 years later (only took a short while to get over navicular) he competes at Advanced Medium and has no navicular (in fact was vetted for £35,000 insurance).

Not everyone's bag but I hunt my cobs barefoot and never had any issues.

 

[Tobiano]

I have read every single post….. well done for getting thread back on track!!

DD your mare is gorgeous, well done indeed for rescuing her. Have no constructive advice at all but just want to say hope she is found not to have any issues and you and your daughter have a lovely future with her.

 

[_GG_]

Have just seen your pictures...DD, she is beautiful and you have clearly done a wonderful job bringing her on from the state she was in when you got her. There have been some incredibly interesting and insightful posts in these last couple of pages, so hopefully the thread has been useful for you, as I am sure it will be others in time.

 

[mischamoo]

I would stop work on the horse – clearly sounds as if it’s struggling with the type of work it’s in.

Also get a farrier to check the balance of the horses feet as this often causes tripping and review if shoeing can change from 6 to 5 weeks.

The tripping to me (if not a foot problem) sounds like it’s an balance issue from a young green horse particularly as you mention the horse is heavy on the forehand and therefore clearly unable to work through its backend correctly and effectively, if not foot problems its could be physical issue from the back/sacroalliac/pelvic area and Id be looking for a full lameness work up with the vet and looking in to xrays of the possible areas.