horse homeopathy? :)

JFTD said:
Good lord, accept scientific data over tradition and "natural" safety :eek: Are you mad, rhino?

:D
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:D I totally understand the desperation that can lead to people trying homeopathic and related 'remedies'; when conventional medicine turns its back on someone and will only offer palliative treatment you feel you need to do something! :( :(

But surely anyone with any degree of logical thinking can see that inherently it doesn't work!

And obviously if it's natural it's safe - I mean there's no such thing as a natural toxin?!
 
JFTD said:
It's a bit harsh to call this poster ignorant - their comments are in line with the current scientific understanding. If you chose to disagree with the results of the published trials which discredit homeopathy, that is, naturally your choice. However, it doesn't make someone who disagrees with you ignorant, or closed minded.
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Well to be fair, statements such as homeopathic treatments are b*llocks, that anyone who uses them is a fool & that opinion doesn't come into it, are pretty narrow-minded and judgemental themselves.

Many vets use homepathic remedies, and as scientists I am sure they would not do so without good reason. Entire centres, careers & treatments are often based on homeopathic remedies, and people use these particularly when conventional medicine fails them. What is the harm in trying them? Unlike many conventional medicines, homeopathic remedies don't tend to be associated with negative side effects. Also, many medicines come from natural sources, aka minerals & chemicals extracted from various herbs etc. They aren't all manmade, they have to be sourced from somewhere! It also depends on what you define as being homeopathic. It should be noted that there are clinical trials that do show that many drugs have the same affect as placebo drugs and many drugs don't have an great a success rate as many people seem to think. Prozac, for example, has been shown to have the same effect (if not less in sme trials) as placebs - who's to say the same might not apply to equine drugs too? Some homeopathic remedies do have scientific foundations & are already being used in conventinal medicine: I do think there's a grey area between homeopathic & conventional medicine - the two aren't necessarily completely separate.

Re. the placebo effect, as someone has already stated, this may not be applicable to horses as they aren't aware of what treatment they are receiving or even if they are receiving treatment at all. I think it's worth considering that, even if the placebo affect did exist regarding horses, if it still improved the horse's health or a specific condition, then what's the problem?

Is it really so foolish to be willing to try anything to make your horse better, especially when conventinal medicine fails? At best it will help, and at worst it will be money wasted. But that often goes for conventional medicine, too. Homeopathic and conventional treatments can compliment each other very well - it needn't be a dilemma over one or the other.

Conventional medicine is usually based on logic rationality & reason, but these only get us so far in life. Noone thinks or lives this way entirely, and - don't get me wrong, I am a scientist in training - I think people have to accept that just because you can't explain or prove something, or don't necessarily have concrete evidence for it, doesn't mean it that it doesn't exist & doesn't have an effect.

Live & let live and each to their own.
 
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rhino said:
And obviously if it's natural it's safe - I mean there's no such thing as a natural toxin?!
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Well quite. I mean, there's nothing in nature which could kill you if you ate it, is there :D That's why I make stews of fox gloves, deadly nightshade, all sorts of wild mushrooms, and any random plant I can get my hands on... :D
 
rhino said:
:D I totally understand the desperation that can lead to people trying homeopathic and related 'remedies'; when conventional medicine turns its back on someone and will only offer palliative treatment you feel you need to do something! :( :(

But surely anyone with any degree of logical thinking can see that inherently it doesn't work!

And obviously if it's natural it's safe - I mean there's no such thing as a natural toxin?!
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[youtube]UvH1TnzYch4[/youtube]

I found this a few weeks ago, and while I found the comedian to be dull as ditchwater this bit was funny as!
 
JFTD said:
Well quite. I mean, there's nothing in nature which could kill you if you ate it, is there :D That's why I make stews of fox gloves, deadly nightshade, all sorts of wild mushrooms, and any random plant I can get my hands on... :D
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Oh you want some of these, very prolific up here and simply magic in stews :)

magic.jpg
 
Bahaha... I have stopped listening to Tim Minchin on my iPod, because I think my constant giggling is scaring people who can't see my earphones (I wear them round the back of my neck and into my ears, rather than in front...).
 
Puzzles said:
Well to be fair, statements such as homeopathic treatments are b*llocks, that anyone who uses them is a fool & that opinion doesn't come into it, are pretty narrow-minded and judgemental themselves.

Many vets use homepathic remedies, and as scientists I am sure they would not do so without good reason. Entire centres, careers & treatments are often based on homeopathic remedies, and people use these particularly when conventional medicine fails them. What is the harm in trying them? Unlike many conventional medicines, homeopathic remedies don't tend to be associated with negative side effects. Also, many medicines come from natural sources, aka minerals & chemicals extracted from various herbs etc. They aren't all manmade, they have to be sourced from somewhere! It also depends on what you define as being homeopathic. It should be noted that there are clinical trials that do show that many drugs have the same affect as placebo drugs and many drugs don't have an great a success rate as many people seem to think.

Re. the placebo effect, as someone has already stated, this may not be applicable to horses as they aren't aware of what treatment they are receiving or even if they are receiving treatment at all. I think it's worth considering that, even if the placebo affect did exist regarding horses, if it still improved the horse's health or a specific condition, then what's the problem?
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Much of your post has already been covered. However, a quick recap,, just for you. Homeopathy is a very specific form of alternative medicine - which involves the use of ultra-dilute solutions of whatever is causing the problem in the first place. It has been shown in many scientific studies not to outperform a placebo. The anecdotal "evidence" often cited is often a result of coincidental changes in management, natural disease resolution or the placebo effect (where the owner or investigator "sees" an improvement which isn't really there). Homeopathic treatments don't have side effects because they are just water.

However, herbal medicines can show side effects - often because they are not tested for toxic effects as pharmaceuticals are. However, they can be effective - yes many drugs are based on naturally occuring compounds.

Actually, I didn't dispute that the comment was judgemental. I dispute that it is an ignorant view point - it isn't ignorant to agree with the best published data available. It isn't closed minded to dismiss a treatment which has repeatedly been shown to be ineffective. It is judgemental to assume that practictioners of homeopathy are charlatons and that those who pay have more money than sense. Judgemental, though not necessarily wrong.

I would also dispute the assertion that vets are scientists. They aren't. They are clinicians who rarely hold scientific qualifications if they are in general practice. There is a massive difference.
 
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Puzzles said:
Many vets use homepathic remedies, and as scientists I am sure they would not do so without good reason.
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True, but that reason is highly liable to be profit motivated. Also (while not wanting to diminish the knowledge and work required to become one) being a qualified vet or doctor doesn't actually mean someone understands the scientific method and the application of critical thinking. The concensus of the majority of the scientific and medical communities however is that homeopathy does not work and that countless well designed studies attest that its only function is as a placebo.


Puzzles said:
What is the harm in trying them?
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This http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html
(the deaths of children due to the ignorance of their parents is particularly sad :mad:). The harm is it encourages people to believe whatever snake-oil is being marketed by an effective salesman rather than looking at actual evidence (not just anecdotes) and the concensus of many learned people who have spent their whole lives studying things like this. Yes, in and of itself homeopathy pills (being just sugar pills essentially) aren't harmful but they are when people become some credulous and unable to distinguish actual medicine from pseudoscience that they don't get 'conventional' (i.e. actually works) medicine.

Puzzles said:
Re. the placebo effect, as someone has already stated, this may not be applicable to horses as they aren't aware of what treatment they are receiving or even if they are receiving treatment at all. I think it's worth considering that, even if the placebo affect did exist regarding horses, if it still improved the horse's health or a specific condition, then what's the problem?
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Because it hasn't actually improved the horse's health - its just improved the owners perception of it. Placebo-by-proxy if you will.

Puzzles said:
Is it really so foolish to be willing to try anything to make your horse better, especially when conventinal medicine fails? At best it will help, and at worst it will be money wasted. But that often goes for conventional medicine, too. Homeopathic and conventional treatments can compliment each other very well - it needn't be a dilemma over one or the other.
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This we agree on (sort of) - see above link for results of choosing homeopathy (and yes I know that technically that is anecdotal evidence, for obvious ethical reasons a clinical study into something like that could not be carried out)

Puzzles said:
I think people have to accept that just because you can't explain or prove something, or don't necessarily have concrete evidence for it, doesn't mean it that it doesn't exist & doesn't have an effect.
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Yes but there's a difference between having scant evidence for something and having effectively no evidence for something coupled with the fact that it flat out contradicts theories for which there is substancial evidence. If homeopathy actually worked it wouldn't just imply a medical revolution - it is
also contradictory to essentially the entirety of quantum mechanics/ modern chemistry which frankly have considerably more evidence behind them than a few anecdotes that can normally be easily attributed to the placebo effect.
 
Puzzles said:
Is it really so foolish to be willing to try anything to make your horse better, especially when conventinal medicine fails? At best it will help, and at worst it will be money wasted.
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I am extremely privileged to know the secret to all health, both human and equine. I cannot reveal my secrets here, but suffice it to say that it involves an ancient ritual involving consumption of a specific mixture of urine, hair, frogs and milkshakes (strawberry of course). If you are willing to pay me a token fee of £500 I will reveal the proportions, and can assure you a long and healthy life.

At worst, it will be money wasted.
 
In my opinion and experience it's all pretty much a load of ****!! I can understand sometimes the relieving effects of herbal/homeopathic stuff but I have a strong disbelief that anyone should be treating their horse with these things as an alternative to veterinary advice
 
Does anyone here know of anyone/anything that has been CURED from a serious disease through PURELY herbal or homeopathic remedies?? I mean people as well, and where are the scientific results of these successes?
 
cptrayes said:
I've also seen a lot of people give homeopathic remedies at the same time as making changes to diet and routine, or doing things like twice daily cold hosing, and then they claim a miraculous effect for the little white tablets!
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I've seen this too - the owners don't even realise they are doing it.

It can be such a simple change.

You have a broodmare out at grass with bad sarcoids - and you want to try and treat them with homeopathy.

You give the sugar tablets for a couple of weeks (!) and the sarcoid starts to shrink (a bit)... OMG, its amazing. Homeopathy works. You've never seen this much improvement before.


Except it doesn't. You had to adminster these tablets twice a day, every other day, and they had to be crushed in a certain amount of water, and given straight away ... or some such ridiculous routine. Impractical in the field. So what did you do? You stabled the mare, and went out in the morning and evening and syringed the tablets in water. And you gave her a treat of course, because well, that was a bit nasty.

What else did you do? Well everything else in the barn was getting fed, so sally had some too. She had hay shovelled in at her, and she didn't have to forage. And she had a light rug on, to stop her getting a chill when standing in.

And there were no flies biting at her. She was happier - she didn't have to deal with the stress of her companions being moved or kicking off fights, vying for food. She was warmer, had better nutrition, her immune system wasn't under as much stress as it was out exposed to the elements. For weeks. (and assuming of course that poor sally was out on the side of a mountain and she's a horse that likes the comforts of home ;) )

Simples.

Doesn't work with every horse of course - thats not a 'cure' for sarcoids. But all it takes is one person to think they've 'cured' their horse with a treatment that cost a tenner ... and there you are.
 
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Homeopathy is provided by the NHS as a valid service and is well known to help relieve and cure many symptoms and is recommended by NICE.
http://www.uclh.nhs.uk/OurServices/OurHospitals/RLHIM/Pages/Home.aspx

Here are some recommendations from nice.
http://www.nice.org.uk/Search.do?x=...hy&newsearch@@true&page@@&SORTORDER=BESTMATCH

As I lived and worked with the NHS in Bath, homeopathy is big business here with two hom vets, several hom centres, flower remedy specialists are abounding and the GPs here seem to prescribe themselves hom remedies rather than conventional medicine. I have several friends who are HCPs, some dismiss it completely yet some swear by it...

It is because they know basic pharmacology, and modern poisons cause more harm than good. You may think "what a bunch of hippies" however, there's something in the water!!!!

P.s. a vaccine is a memory/trace of a toxin in water. Many of us give our children infected water to immunise them from disease. Think about that one before you dismiss it completely.

It is likely you already use homeopathy or alternative medicines everyday without realising it...
 
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Tallyho, vaccines contain either live attenuated or dead strains of bacterium / virus or major recognition proteins from that disease which prime the immune system to react to the disease itself - that is NOT the same thing as homeopathy at all.
 
P.s. a vaccine is a memory/trace of a toxin in water. Many of us give our children infected water to immunise them from disease. Think about that one before you dismiss it completely.
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Oh come on there's no comparison between vaccination and homeopathy! A vaccine is certainly not a "memory" in water nor would I call it a trace. It's a killed or weakened pathogen, or part of a pathogen, that is unable to infect but able to illicit an immune response, thereby affording the recipent immunity against future infection. No comparison whatsoever to homeopathy!
 
It's just been adopted as the national vaccine programme for the whole of uk for a well known virus :)
 
Tallyho, 2 minutes with google tells me that the HPV vaccine is comprised of virus-like particles - synthesised surface proteins of the virus put together to form a non-infective virus-like macromolecule.

I don't see the relationship between this and homeopathy?

btw - I work in upstream research for vaccine design, so I'm pretty famiiar with the ins and outs of how vaccines work. The major difference between homeopathy and vaccination is that there is actually active ingredient present in a vaccine (whereas you are unlikely to find a single molecule of "cure" in a homeopathic remedy, statistically speaking) and that vaccines are non-infective or attenuated versions of disease.
 
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Moomin1 said:
Does anyone here know of anyone/anything that has been CURED from a serious disease through PURELY herbal or homeopathic remedies?? I mean people as well, and where are the scientific results of these successes?
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There you go, positive proof homeopathy works in emergency situations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

Next time you have an artery bleeding all over the place do remember to take your homeopathic remedy before you call 911 - save the NHS some money!

QR: BTW don't forget to sue me please. I can now offer homeopathic mind-waves from France for a very reasonable fee.
 
JFTD said:
btw - I work in upstream research for vaccine design, so I'm pretty famiiar with the ins and outs of how vaccines work. The major difference between homeopathy and vaccination is that there is actually active ingredient present in a vaccine (whereas you are unlikely to find a single molecule of "cure" in a homeopathic remedy, statistically speaking) and that vaccines are non-infective or attenuated versions of disease.
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I have also worked making vaccines and there is definitely drug substance in every single dose administered. QC protocols to make sure of this are actually pretty blooming stringent. The only doses with no drug substance are the placebo doses made for trials. Because real medicine has to be proven to be better than placebo to be licensed.You don't go along and dilute it until there is nothing there! That is why vaccines work and homeopathy doesn't. I would love to show you the protein gels I have which show drug substance present in samples at high levels but of course because of IP I am not allowed. But I promise, whole heartedly, that every single test I have ever run on a formulated vaccine has shown high levels of the drug compound in every sample

Water does not and can not carry a 'memory' of a molecule that was once there in minute amounts and has been diluted out a 1000 fold. If your knowledge of chemistry and physics is sound and you believe homeopathy works (other than by placebo affect) perhaps you could come back to me and explain to me how it could ever be possible that water has a memory.
 
JFTD, I too am familiar with how vaccines work. I shouldn't really believe in homeopathy because of my background in medicine but I know it works and therefore I use it. I'm not forcing anyone else to.

I just think principles are similar (treat like with like) except you are not going to kill someone with homeopathy but you can with vaccines and neither does the body develop antibodies with homeopathic vaccines since why it is dismissed and I can't claim they are effective. I am saying that it uses the same principles. No, I would not choose homeopathic vaccines over normal vaccines but there are certain vaccines I would avoid. The potency is real, so is the risk of mortality.
 
I'm on the fence about homoepathy. I can't see how it works - but then I can't see how a magpie can curse me but I will always say, "Good morning" to them.

I'll let you all into a secret about conventional medicine.

Mostly - they just buy a little time or manipulate the disease process to give the patient's body the chance to fix itself.

One might consider that a placebo too?
 
Moomin- i have! My horse was diagnosed with liver failure... Vets said she couldnt be helped so noedicine. I gave her milk thistle tablets.. She was cured after so many months (vets took blood then she passed 5* vetting)
 
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