Horse hunting.....either I’d forgotten how awful it is, or it’s got worse

A horse or pony that has a couple of DCs at 80 or 90cm is a product of the work that has gone into it and IMHO many tend to undervalue that. It means it can go round inside the boards in some sort of shape (hopefully), is careful over SJs and can cope with fillers etc and out XC it does water, ditches and will go up and down banks etc. It also hopefully demonstrates that it travels, stands on the box, doesn't get stupid at an event etc. There's so much more to a nice grassroots eventer than just getting round the courses and if the rider is a grassroots rider rather than a pro that to my mind also puts the value up.
 
Bernster said:
Not sure if I’ll articulate this properly but I feel like most half decent horses without this price tag can manage low level eventing perfectly well. It’s more the amateur rider that can’t manage it. So they buy something more expensive thats done it, in the hope it will take them around. But I wonder if they could spend the same money on training and paying a rider and ‘make their own’.

I‘d kind of put myself in this bracket. F would go round be 80-90 very capably with a more competent/braver/experienced rider but we’re just bumbling along at unaff. I occasionally think about having a friend take him round a few 80/90s to see if that would help me, but I’m enjoying doing the small stuff too much!
Click to expand...

I’d also agree with this.
I also think this then leaves a market of horse that isn’t talented enough for a pro but is probably too much horse for an amateur. These horses again demand a high price because the pro has still invested significant funds into competing them.
 
oldie48 said:
A horse or pony that has a couple of DCs at 80 or 90cm is a product of the work that has gone into it and IMHO many tend to undervalue that. It means it can go round inside the boards in some sort of shape (hopefully), is careful over SJs and can cope with fillers etc and out XC it does water, ditches and will go up and down banks etc. It also hopefully demonstrates that it travels, stands on the box, doesn't get stupid at an event etc. There's so much more to a nice grassroots eventer than just getting round the courses and if the rider is a grassroots rider rather than a pro that to my mind also puts the value up.
Click to expand...

I can only speak for me, but F is all of these apart from not having competed at BE but he is def capable. Does all the above but naps occasionally at the start, which is entirely a training and rider (=me) issue. Easily fixed if a better rider was on him or (but not quite so easy) if I knuckled down and trained more/in the right way.
 
Ceifer said:
I’d also agree with this.
I also think this then leaves a market of horse that isn’t talented enough for a pro but is probably too much horse for an amateur. These horses again demand a high price because the pro has still invested significant funds into competing them.
Click to expand...

I agree this is a problem area, the horse sells for decent money but often proves too much for the less competent rider, even with plenty of training it can be harder than expected to get a tune out of a well educated horse.

I have always felt there is a good market for the half bred type but they are very hard to find, still require work to bring them on and because they are not flashy they often get overlooked by many people going for what their idea of an eventer should be when in reality a slightly plainer type can still do the job at the lower levels and will usually be more straightforward rides, so they become even more difficult to find because they are not being bred and produced for the market as anything other than allrounders, a term which now seems to cover everything that is not a competition horse when really it should be describing a decent equine with ability to go round an 80/90 without too much trouble, it may not have the talent to win much but should be a fun horse to own.
 
Bernster said:
I often think that bp, there’s a massive need for those straight all rounder types but there such a broad price range For them, and they are undervalued to some extent. I suspect breeders and trainers focus instead in the upper end expensive types.
Click to expand...
Having been a breeder on a reasonably large scale I can affirm that they will be aiming to produce the competitive, top-of-the-line horse. Anything that doesn't make the grade will then be offered to the leisure market, often with mixed results because the top competition horse breeding does not always suit the amateur rider. If I was ever to get back into breeding (and please, shoot me before this happens), I would aim for the leisure horse market as this is by far the largest market, and desperately needs the input. It is a market that also needs specific trainers, attuned to the capabilities of less professional riders.
 
I don't think 9k is alot for what you want. The problem is with these threads is people always think, I *only* want but it happens to be what so many people are looking for.

It's common to here, I *just* want a safe, sane horse, that's done a bit of everything. Nothing too old or with issues. Hmm I doubt you're the only one.

Having said that, I do feel for you, horse shopping isn't the fun it should be! And I do think you'll get what you want if you're in no rush and go for something 14.2.
 
Bernster said:
Exactly that Cortez. Those sane safe types - folks often want to pay 3-5k max for them but there is so much value in having an easy hack who will look after the less experienced, or nervous, rider.
Click to expand...
Exactly this.
With a ‘competition‘ horse people will accept a ‘quirk’ whereas with an all rounder they want absolute behavioural perfection and the ability to still go out and compete or do riding club etc.
 
My late mare would have fitted the criteria. I'm amazed at what her price tag would have been!! She was 14.3/15hh, we competed, and completed intro/prenovice and jumped novice at unafiliated. We never did well at dressage, she had pony paces, and this apparently always let her down compared to big horses. And I'm not a dressage loving person - I was told to smile once as it would improve my scores! lol She loaded, she travelled, she never napped and loved her jumping more than food! She had a few issues - couldn't tie her up, nor pull her mane, but we never found that a problem.
I'd honestly say her value was no more than £2k, I had no idea she would have been worth more. Not that I'd ever have sold her. I was under the impressiion her size was so 'inbetween' that it wasn't popular??!
 
Fools Motto said:
My late mare would have fitted the criteria. I'm amazed at what her price tag would have been!! She was 14.3/15hh, we competed, and completed intro/prenovice and jumped novice at unafiliated. We never did well at dressage, she had pony paces, and this apparently always let her down compared to big horses. And I'm not a dressage loving person - I was told to smile once as it would improve my scores! lol She loaded, she travelled, she never napped and loved her jumping more than food! She had a few issues - couldn't tie her up, nor pull her mane, but we never found that a problem.
I'd honestly say her value was no more than £2k, I had no idea she would have been worth more. Not that I'd ever have sold her. I was under the impressiion her size was so 'inbetween' that it wasn't popular??!
Click to expand...
When we find these paragons we don't sell, do we? My 15.2 TB had been a pc eventer regularly on teams and doing opens but was outgrown by his rider in terms of his size and her ambition. He never came on the open market and I snapped him up. He moved nicely but not mega, would pop a decent fence with enthusiasm and was quite careful, he was pretty reliable XC 80/90, good to hack and I was happy to take him pretty much anywhere although he could spook and had no brakes if something overtook him. Generally good on the ground etc but had the odd silly about loading and he died here at 28. I think that's why it's so difficult to find good all rounders, they either stay in the same home or get sold by word of mouth but if they do come on the open market, they can be expensive. Laws of supply and demand.
 
oldie48 said:
When we find these paragons we don't sell, do we? My 15.2 TB had been a pc eventer regularly on teams and doing opens but was outgrown by his rider in terms of his size and her ambition. He never came on the open market and I snapped him up. He moved nicely but not mega, would pop a decent fence with enthusiasm and was quite careful, he was pretty reliable XC 80/90, good to hack and I was happy to take him pretty much anywhere although he could spook and had no brakes if something overtook him. Generally good on the ground etc but had the odd silly about loading and he died here at 28. I think that's why it's so difficult to find good all rounders, they either stay in the same home or get sold by word of mouth but if they do come on the open market, they can be expensive. Laws of supply and demand.
Click to expand...

This is so true.
I don’t trust half of what is said in these ads, as I do believe that good horses don’t get advertised often. I’ve never bought or sold a good horse via an ad.
 
There's definitely a lot of lame horses for sale ?

I know when I was looking at the tail end of last year my vet friend instructed me to get videos of every pace and I'm glad I did, saved a lot of miles
 
Cortez said:
Having been a breeder on a reasonably large scale I can affirm that they will be aiming to produce the competitive, top-of-the-line horse. Anything that doesn't make the grade will then be offered to the leisure market, often with mixed results because the top competition horse breeding does not always suit the amateur rider. If I was ever to get back into breeding (and please, shoot me before this happens), I would aim for the leisure horse market as this is by far the largest market, and desperately needs the input. It is a market that also needs specific trainers, attuned to the capabilities of less professional riders.
Click to expand...

This is what the market needs. But the conundrum is that, stud fee aside, they take just as much time and expertise to produce. And it’s clear time and time again that the bulk of the amateur market are not prepared to pay what it costs to get them to a happy, confident, well educated 6yo with proof they will do the job.

Therefore for now, they either need to buy young and make it themselves or take their chances on a not-quite-good-enough sporthorse
 
Cortez said:
It is a market that also needs specific trainers, attuned to the capabilities of less professional riders.
Click to expand...

That is what I specialised in when training. Training nice people to ride nice horses, nicely. It was incredibly rewarding. My main focus was on confidence of horse and rider, and then everything else would fall into place. It included so many elements psychologically and physiologically for owners/riders, from breathing to feeling worthy.
 
ihatework said:
This is what the market needs. But the conundrum is that, stud fee aside, they take just as much time and expertise to produce. And it’s clear time and time again that the bulk of the amateur market are not prepared to pay what it costs to get them to a happy, confident, well educated 6yo with proof they will do the job.

Therefore for now, they either need to buy young and make it themselves or take their chances on a not-quite-good-enough sporthorse
Click to expand...
Nail on head as usual!
 
I do think there would be a good market for natives crossed with a bit of blood. There is only one person I know of breeding these specifically and she sells all hers off as foals and they do fetch good prices. The issue then is the market wants them to be produced which obviously pushes prices up further.
 
Cortez said:
If I was ever to get back into breeding (and please, shoot me before this happens), I would aim for the leisure horse market as this is by far the largest market, and desperately needs the input. It is a market that also needs specific trainers, attuned to the capabilities of less professional riders.
Click to expand...

I am hoping this is what I have just bred! I can't afford to buy the kind of horse I want, but as I have the space available and hopefully enough experience to train it myself, fingers crossed I've cracked it for myself... in a few years time anyway


ihatework said:
This is what the market needs. But the conundrum is that, stud fee aside, they take just as much time and expertise to produce. And it’s clear time and time again that the bulk of the amateur market are not prepared to pay what it costs to get them to a happy, confident, well educated 6yo with proof they will do the job.
Click to expand...

agreed;
Patterdale said:
Just seen an unbroken 3year old Tb for £5k..
Click to expand...
So while this feels like a lot of money for a horse, it probably cost that and more to get to that point.

I'm used to scraping up bargains but I can totally see why a straightforward horse with a small record can command a high price - it's cost a bomb to get to that point and everyone wants one. IHW put it perfectly, there are people willing to pay that, hence that's what they are worth
 
ihatework said:
This is what the market needs. But the conundrum is that, stud fee aside, they take just as much time and expertise to produce. And it’s clear time and time again that the bulk of the amateur market are not prepared to pay what it costs to get them to a happy, confident, well educated 6yo with proof they will do the job.

Therefore for now, they either need to buy young and make it themselves or take their chances on a not-quite-good-enough sporthorse
Click to expand...

I did seriously consider breeding at one time, buying a couple of chunky hunter or native type mares to put to tb stallions, but the figures never added up, I bought, produced and sold into the market but all too often people came along wanting something more classy, most went to appreciative homes and several went on to higher levels but had been overlooked because they were a bit ordinary, times have changed a little as there are lower affiliated classes now but you still see many people riding horses that are probably more horse than they need and having issues trying to cope.
 
So while this feels like a lot of money for a horse, it probably cost that and more to get to that point.
Click to expand...

See, I can’t stand it when you see people saying this.
You cannot get back what you put in with horses. It doesn’t work like that. We keep them for fun. People breed them as hobbies (with a few exceptions, and they have the economies of scale).

Just because it cost Joe Bloggs £500 stud fee, £500 vet fees, grass livery for 4 years, however many hours at minimum wage etc etc, does NOT mean the world owes him that back for the horse. My daughters pony has cost me probably £2000 over the last few years in keep etc.
Doesn’t mean he’s worth £2000!
 
Patterdale said:
See, I can’t stand it when you see people saying this.
You cannot get back what you put in with horses. It doesn’t work like that. We keep them for fun. People breed them as hobbies (with a few exceptions, and they have the economies of scale).

Just because it cost Joe Bloggs £500 stud fee, £500 vet fees, grass livery for 4 years, however many hours at minimum wage etc etc, does NOT mean the world owes him that back for the horse. My daughters pony has cost me probably £2000 over the last few years in keep etc.
Doesn’t mean he’s worth £2000!
Click to expand...

No, but it also doesn’t mean they are obliged to sell the horse to you for less if they don’t want to.

It goes both ways.

I’ll say what I always say. A horse is worth what the owner is willing to sell it for and the buyer is willing to pay.

If you don’t want to pay 5k for a 3yo then that is your prerogative. But it doesn’t mean the horse isn’t worth that to someone else.
 
Patterdale said:
See, I can’t stand it when you see people saying this.
You cannot get back what you put in with horses. It doesn’t work like that. We keep them for fun. People breed them as hobbies (with a few exceptions, and they have the economies of scale).

Just because it cost Joe Bloggs £500 stud fee, £500 vet fees, grass livery for 4 years, however many hours at minimum wage etc etc, does NOT mean the world owes him that back for the horse. My daughters pony has cost me probably £2000 over the last few years in keep etc.
Doesn’t mean he’s worth £2000!
Click to expand...

It is much the same as the livery thread, if someone breeds, produces a horse to sell, or offers livery, then they should get a fair price not subsidise someones hobby by selling for way less that it has cost in real terms, taking out extras such as the odd vet bill run up after an accident, if people can breed a litter of pups, sell when 8 weeks old and make £20-30k it puts the price and value of well produced horses onto a whole different level, I don't see why a responsible breeder or producer cannot expect to get back what they put in if they have done it to sell.
Selling your pet for whatever reason is different as it was not bought to sell, is not part of a business, however small that business may be, with horses it is often a bonus alongside running liveries, teaching, backing etc.
 
My horse was €2000 never had a competition recorded . She turned out to be a brilliant competition horse. Good horse are out there you just have to be willing to compromise on other stuff. If you want the perfect horse you probably talking about over 10 grand .
 
I once looked at a stud when I was younger and wanted a youngster. They were all POA, and looked fantastic. I called, it was for a yearling, liked the look of a few of them. They were 12K to 20K. Too rich for me, but that would not mean that I thought they weren't worth it. They were beautiful, the place looked beautiful. I am sure someone will have bought them.
 
ihatework said:
No, but it also doesn’t mean they are obliged to sell the horse to you for less if they don’t want to.

It goes both ways.

I’ll say what I always say. A horse is worth what the owner is willing to sell it for and the buyer is willing to pay.

If you don’t want to pay 5k for a 3yo then that is your prerogative. But it doesn’t mean the horse isn’t worth that to someone else.
Click to expand...

Yes but your average 3yo Tb being sold on Facebook has NEVER been worth £5k. It’s like me advertising a VW golf for £50k. Yes someone might buy it - doesn’t mean it’s worth it. It’s a mad price!
 
Patterdale said:
See, I can’t stand it when you see people saying this.
You cannot get back what you put in with horses. It doesn’t work like that. We keep them for fun. People breed them as hobbies (with a few exceptions, and they have the economies of scale).

Just because it cost Joe Bloggs £500 stud fee, £500 vet fees, grass livery for 4 years, however many hours at minimum wage etc etc, does NOT mean the world owes him that back for the horse. My daughters pony has cost me probably £2000 over the last few years in keep etc.
Doesn’t mean he’s worth £2000!
Click to expand...

This slightly reminds me of about 17 years ago when I offered a slightly mad woman what she paid for her ‘project’ pony that she was terrified of and had caused further problems with since having it (£600) Initially she almost bit my hand off, then she spoke to her husband and suddenly decided to add a further £400 on to the price to “cover the rent we have paid for the last couple of months, plus things like the wheelbarrow, feed bins and tools”. I didn’t need wheelbarrow and tools as I had my own, when I told her this, she said “oh they wouldn’t come with the pony, but we bought them to look after it so we want to get that money back or we’ve made a loss”
 
be positive said:
It is much the same as the livery thread, if someone breeds, produces a horse to sell, or offers livery, then they should get a fair price not subsidise someones hobby by selling for way less that it has cost in real terms, taking out extras such as the odd vet bill run up after an accident, if people can breed a litter of pups, sell when 8 weeks old and make £20-30k it puts the price and value of well produced horses onto a whole different level, I don't see why a responsible breeder or producer cannot expect to get back what they put in if they have done it to sell.
Selling your pet for whatever reason is different as it was not bought to sell, is not part of a business, however small that business may be, with horses it is often a bonus alongside running liveries, teaching, backing etc.
Click to expand...

I get what you’re saying, but how do you square this? The same horse, produced by an amateur would be £7k or a pro £17k (lets say) to allow for it being a business?

It doesn’t work like that.

The trouble is, it’s a leisure industry and a lot of so called professionals make no money because they don’t need to - they already have money behind them and do it very much as a lifestyle.

There are plenty of people making money out of horses but I don’t buy into the belief that breeders should expect to get out what they put in. The vast majority of horses are not bred by business, but by private people.
Also, it could cost £5k to get two identical foals to four. One could be a dud, one amazing. That’s the fun of it - they’re certainly not both worth the same just because someone spent money keeping them.
 
Michen said:
it just feels like people expect a lot. I wouldn’t want a 4yo that had been produced and done lots personally. I would find that off putting. I really hope if I do sell people will appreciate a 4yo that’s been taken super slow with proper foundations in place rather than rushed so that they can be videoed jumping around a course or winning rosettes.
Click to expand...

Completely agree - whenever I see photos of 4/5 year olds jumping big fences etc it immediately puts me off.

Would much rather something brought on slowly with time to mature.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top