Horse hunting.....either I’d forgotten how awful it is, or it’s got worse

You can buy into whatever belief you like Patterdale. Ultimately though, you can set your budget and buy the best you can find that suits you in that budget. I have no doubt you will find something nice. But the longer your list of ‘must haves’ the more you need to be prepared to do the legwork for.

I appreciate I might be coming across as argumentative and condescending. FWIW I generally buy reasonably cheaply myself. And btw, plenty of young, non-racing tbs sell for 5k +. Although maybe not dross advertised on FB.
 
ihatework said:
And btw, plenty of young, non-racing tbs sell for 5k +. Although maybe not dross advertised on FB.
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Well yes, exactly! I’ve had some lovely ex racers for £500 or less which have been under the hammer for 6 figures as three year olds. But they weren’t being advertised on the Happy Hackers page on Facebook by teenage chancers ?

Just had another lame video from a well known producer. I feel like telling them why I’m not interested but I think I’d just come across badly.
 
I’ve maybe not come across exactly how I meant. I’m not complaining about high prices for good horses. But I haven’t really seen many good horses.
£10k plus for difficult horses with multiple health issues and very average records is an insult I think. Sending videos of clearly lame horses for £8k is insulting.
Sellers wasting my time on the phone and over message describing their horses which sound amazing, then after half an hour drop in ‘oh he did do a tendon last year and the swelling is noticeable but just ignore it he’s sound now.’

And yes, lots of people cashing in on the current situation by clearing out all their crap with the ‘oh he would have been doing novice if not for Covid’ excuses....?
 
I think breeders of quality horses *should* be able to expect to cover their costs, that's what is wrong with the leisure horse market, because if they cant then there's no point breeding them and then we end up in this situation with loads of dross and loads of stupendous horses and not a great deal in between.

Because I cant afford to spend the money that would compensate someone for breeding a lovely horse I'm at the dross end of the market but I expect to compromise on all aspects, size, character, training, breeding, soundness, you name it.

I cant understand why you'd think that people should breed super horses at a loss so people like me who can't really afford them can get one ?
 
milliepops said:
I cant understand why you'd think that people should breed super horses at a loss so people like me who can't really afford them can get one ?
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But that’s not what I’m saying at all.

I’m saying that any Tom Dick or Harry shouldn’t expect that because they’ve paid xxxx to put their mare in foal, then that foal should be worth xxxx.

It’s like any breeding for profit. We have nearly 1000 sheep, and we make a profit on lambs.

If someone had one or two sheep and thought they too could make a profit breeding lambs, they’d be wrong. The costs would be too high, and the end product too expensive for anyone to buy. So the people who have one or two sheep accept this, and do it for the enjoyment.

Horsey people are different however. They seem to think that because they’ve spent £5k getting their average foal to 4 years old, anyone not paying them £6k for said foal is ungrateful.

No. If you are a proper operation, breeding the best to the best on a scale and treating it as a business, you will make money. Your costs won’t be as high, and you can turn a profit on good foals for £2k easily. The bad ones will be made up for by the good ones.

If you’re breeding 2-3 a year as a sideline, then don’t expect the same return. It’s fundamental business.
 
Patterdale said:
I get what you’re saying, but how do you square this? The same horse, produced by an amateur would be £7k or a pro £17k (lets say) to allow for it being a business?

It doesn’t work like that.

The trouble is, it’s a leisure industry and a lot of so called professionals make no money because they don’t need to - they already have money behind them and do it very much as a lifestyle.

There are plenty of people making money out of horses but I don’t buy into the belief that breeders should expect to get out what they put in. The vast majority of horses are not bred by business, but by private people.
Also, it could cost £5k to get two identical foals to four. One could be a dud, one amazing. That’s the fun of it - they’re certainly not both worth the same just because someone spent money keeping them.
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The true pro will probably do the job in half, if not less time, so margins do not have to be that much, they will also not have livery bills, do not often need to buy in extra tack, rugs, do not need to factor in lessons, clinics and will normally take more than one out to compete trying to ensure every outing is successful one way or another and adding value rather than going out to give the rider some fun, obviously we are always hoping the odd one will be special and balance out the rest that make less profit.

Breeders much the same they can keep overheads down buying in bulk, not having livery to pay, they can cut costs without cutting corners and with the two identical ones the dud will possibly cover its costs the other will sell for more and balance it out, that is part of the breeding process, being able to pick out the star and nurture it until it will sell for a premium.
 
Patterdale said:
But that’s not what I’m saying at all.

I’m saying that any Tom Dick or Harry shouldn’t expect that because they’ve paid xxxx to put their mare in foal, then that foal should be worth xxxx.

It’s like any breeding for profit. We have nearly 1000 sheep, and we make a profit on lambs.

If someone had one or two sheep and thought they too could make a profit breeding lambs, they’d be wrong. The costs would be too high, and the end product too expensive for anyone to buy. So the people who have one or two sheep accept this, and do it for the enjoyment.

Horsey people are different however. They seem to think that because they’ve spent £5k getting their average foal to 4 years old, anyone not paying them £6k for said foal is ungrateful.

No. If you are a proper operation, breeding the best to the best on a scale and treating it as a business, you will make money. Your costs won’t be as high, and you can turn a profit on good foals for £2k easily. The bad ones will be made up for by the good ones.

If you’re breeding 2-3 a year as a sideline, then don’t expect the same return. It’s fundamental business.
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I'm not talking about dud horses though, you can pick up a dud horse for £1 any day of the week, I've got a yard full of them. You seem to be looking for a nice horse that has been "made" correctly , there's nothing to do with being ungrateful there. It costs what it costs ??‍♀️ if things were as you're starting then there would be no shortage of lovely young horses doing well for <£5k.

I dont personally find the lamb analogy particularly relevant because a good horse ready to go and do stuff has had far more variables in the years it's been growing up, that a potential buyer needs to be *just so*. If the variables ended up that it was badly fed, not handled well and broken in a crap way, not educated etc then it's worth peanuts. If it's had an optimum upbringing then its capable of commanding a higher price. Just the fact of keeping the animal for years before sale means there's much more scope for variation in quality and therefore potential value.
 
be positive said:
The true pro will probably do the job in half, if not less time, so margins do not have to be that much, they will also not have livery bills, do not often need to buy in extra tack, rugs, do not need to factor in lessons, clinics and will normally take more than one out to compete trying to ensure every outing is successful one way or another and adding value rather than going out to give the rider some fun, obviously we are always hoping the odd one will be special and balance out the rest that make less profit.

Breeders much the same they can keep overheads down buying in bulk, not having livery to pay, they can cut costs without cutting corners and with the two identical ones the dud will possibly cover its costs the other will sell for more and balance it out, that is part of the breeding process, being able to pick out the star and nurture it until it will sell for a premium.
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Precisely this, but you also have to be businesslike and that means occasionally having to put foals down, having to sell to people you don't like, culling (by selling, hopefully) broodmares, stallions, etc. I.e. Not a hobby.....
 
It's an entirely hypothetical point for me because I simply dont have the funds to be a customer but it seems to me that the people who are more likely to breed the part breed types that would plug the gap *are* the hobby breeders? Commercial breeders seem much more drawn to the stellar types for competitive kudos or pure bred preservation and improvement of natives, rare breeds etc?
 
Cortez said:
Precisely this, but you also have to be businesslike and that means occasionally having to put foals down, having to sell to people you don't like, culling (by selling, hopefully) broodmares, stallions, etc. I.e. Not a hobby.....
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I had a lovely well bred pony mare who I bred two foals from, the first cost a fair bit to use a top stallion and came out decidedly odd taking the worst from both and bits from I don't know where;) he did have a sweet nature, pretty head and was a good colour but was never going to be much use under saddle, he found a long term companion home where he had a lovely but fairly useless life.
Foal two was cheap to breed as the stallion was based with me for the summer, again well bred, he was stunning but had seriously bad sweet itch so was not sold on, probably should have been pts but he spent his time as company for my retired competition horse being pts together when he was still relatively young.
I kept the mare as a pretty pet but did not try again as it was obviously not going to work out, I did not expect to make money but I had hoped to breed a couple of quality useful foals, at the time it was a hobby alongside the business but it was partly why I didn't go forward with buying bigger mares to breed from, to do it properly you have to be tough, fine keeping one or two useless pets but not when you have several mares producing a foal each year numbers soon build up and each one needs to have a purpose.
 
Michen said:
it just feels like people expect a lot. I wouldn’t want a 4yo that had been produced and done lots personally. I would find that off putting. I really hope if I do sell people will appreciate a 4yo that’s been taken super slow with proper foundations in place rather than rushed so that they can be videoed jumping around a course or winning rosettes.
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I would and am distinctly put off 4 year olds that have anything other than a very basic, initial competition experience. If I was going to buy a 4 yo horse I would want it, at the end of the summer as a 4 y/o to handle well, load and travel, accept clippers, vet, farrier, hack out alone and in company, cope with careful/quiet traffic in a reasonably sympathetic situation, cope with dogs etc, be happy enough to take off for a lesson/arena hire on my own and possibly, depending on the time of year and my aspirations I would be happy enough to see it have dealt with 2 prelim dressage tests and perhaps 1 very low level SJ comp as well as some evidence of XC experience though not competing. As someone who produces my own horses (only for me and only for what I enjoy - no sales involved lol!!) that would be more than I do with a 4 y/o horse but I would make an allowance for someone wanting to sell with some kind of evidence of ability. For my own horses I don't tend to take them to any kind of formal competitive setting until 5 but work on the basics and have a bit of training at home instead. For a 4 y/o horse here XC experience is very basic - logs and ditches on the commons, steps up and down, water and possibly some small rails, benches but no bigger than a couple of feee etc. I tend to concentrate more on doing everything very slowly so our 4 year olds haven't done very much canter work at all. Having said that, although we have nice horses here (I think!) none of them are aimed at any serious competitive life so I don't feel that I might miss out on 4y/o classes, 5 y/o classes etc. I understand that there is more incentive/pressure on those with horses who might have a more structured future! Even so, I wouldn't buy a 4 y/o that had hunted in Ireland (could be anything lol) nor competed in young horse competitions in any sphere, nor would I want to buy a 4 y/o 'established' at anything.
 
I'm not sure you can complain just because you cant afford what you want - accept that you will have to compromise or dont spend your hard earned cash, or wait until the perfect horse comes up in that budget. The fact you can only find the lame, not competed, has a vice in your price bracket unfortunately tells you that the better horses are currently (important qualification) worth more to lots of people hence why they are flying off the shelf.

Whining that they arent worth that isnt much use when either you dont actually want the horse because its lame, not done what you want etc. so cost is irrelevant or other people are willing to pay more for them - so they are worth it.
 
SusieT said:
I'm not sure you can complain just because you cant afford what you want - accept that you will have to compromise or dont spend your hard earned cash, or wait until the perfect horse comes up in that budget. The fact you can only find the lame, not competed, has a vice in your price bracket unfortunately tells you that the better horses are currently (important qualification) worth more to lots of people hence why they are flying off the shelf.

Whining that they arent worth that isnt much use when either you dont actually want the horse because its lame, not done what you want etc. so cost is irrelevant or other people are willing to pay more for them - so they are worth it.
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OMG this is NOT what I am saying ??‍♀️??‍♀️
 
Are you a member of Facebook Eventing UK page as there are a few there that meet your criteria? Such as
Top class Small Eventer
Celynnen Top King
Stunning 10 yr old15.2hh Gelding,

Very bold, straight and careful jumper, loves his XC, always inside the time, and has been produced and ridden by a Junior for the last 4 years.

Enjoys all aspects including PC rallies, fun rides and adores a fuss!

Great to shoe, box, clip, hack and stands happy and quiet in a trailer or Lorry. A mother's dream to handle.

Would suit ambitious teenager or small adult.

Results include;
7th Pc Championships 100 ODE
Chosen as team Captain Wales & West BE u18s 2019, and team member 2018
Numerous top 10 in BE Under 18s ODE
PC SJ Area 4&5 3rd Individual
1st Novice Unafil Dressage, qualifying for Trailblazers Champs
1st Intermediate Area 4&5 Pc Dressage Champs

?Five figures
 
Another one. Can’t remember whether you want a mare or not
STUNNING EVENT HORSE/ALL ROUNDER -MYFYRIAN MILL GIRL (MILLIE)

8yo, 15.2hh Dark bay mare, SHB (GB), Sire: Mill Law

Very talented horse with potential to go further, straight mover, established paces and kind willing attitude. Won and placed at Unaff ODEs at 80, 90 & 1m over BE courses, Unaff SJ up to 1m. Won RC area 80cm ODE qualifier 2019 @ Breckenbrough, Individual 9th at RC 80cm ODE Championships 2019 @ Swalcliffe. Double clears in BS – BN.

Easy to box (trailer/lorry), shoe, catch, good stable manners and hacks out alone or in company, good in traffic.

Most suited to a competition home to continue her education and fulfil her potential, she would benefit from an experienced, confident, quiet rider – no novices!

Very sad sale due to work/study commitments, 5* knowledgeable home essential.

More photos and videos available on request. Email richardson17@btinternet.com or contact Sarah 07974 152502. Based nr Malton.

Has been seen to crib occasionally but never caused any issues - price reflects this. £7500 – open to sensible offers
 
Michen said:
What do you mean by a well produced 4yo though. Mine is just 4, he's hacking out under saddle and seeing the world. He's done tons of groundwork and I'll maybe sell him early next year/mid winter (not concerned re price). By that point he will perhaps have done a dressage test and be doing some small fences under saddle.

Will people really expect more!? In my mind he shouldn't be "produced" at that age, just "started" well?
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Michen said:
What do you mean by a well produced 4yo though. Mine is just 4, he's hacking out under saddle and seeing the world. He's done tons of groundwork and I'll maybe sell him early next year/mid winter (not concerned re price). By that point he will perhaps have done a dressage test and be doing some small fences under saddle.

Will people really expect more!? In my mind he shouldn't be "produced" at that age, just "started" well?
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ID
 
Patter dale - I feel your pain, you have a really decent budget and speak a lot of sense. Could you possibly look again at the higher end of ex racers? I've got a lovely ex national hunt horse, broken late with jumps in mind, raced for 18 months then retired young. He loads, he hacks alone, he's clipped, he's good company, capable of jumping 1m 15 plus, should go novice eventing, if he wasn't an ex racer I dread to think how much he would have been but he's an absolute poppet
 
Frumpoon said:
Patter dale - I feel your pain, you have a really decent budget and speak a lot of sense. Could you possibly look again at the higher end of ex racers? I've got a lovely ex national hunt horse, broken late with jumps in mind, raced for 18 months then retired young. He loads, he hacks alone, he's clipped, he's good company, capable of jumping 1m 15 plus, should go novice eventing, if he wasn't an ex racer I dread to think how much he would have been but he's an absolute poppet
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Thank you. I have nothing against ex racers, in fact I really love them....BUT personally I have never had, or known one that stayed sound or held condition without eating £5000 a day. So for that reason, I’ve ruled out another :(
 
I’d expect them to be working confidently forward with reasonable transitions. Popping a small fence either from trot or canter and hacking out sensibly. I wouldn’t accept anything that is nervous or tense....if produced correctly they should be happy and confident about you sitting on them! Obviously some will have done a lot more, especially if producing for age classes.
 
Patterdale said:
Thank you. I have nothing against ex racers, in fact I really love them....BUT personally I have never had, or known one that stayed sound or held condition without eating £5000 a day. So for that reason, I’ve ruled out another :(
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Just a thought xx
 
Patterdale said:
Thank you. I have nothing against ex racers, in fact I really love them....BUT personally I have never had, or known one that stayed sound or held condition without eating £5000 a day. So for that reason, I’ve ruled out another :(
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I had a small, about 15.2, ex NH horse here that ended up on restricted turnout by the end of May after his first winter out 24/7 here while recovering from a tendon injury, he had dropped off a bit during Feb, moved to better grass and just blossomed, he came back into work a bit earlier than planned to help keep the weight off, he looked fantastic when he went back into a training yard, came back looking ropey and we got him fitter, stronger, he ran several times from here before retiring to start his RC career.
He was a really good doer on ad lib forage, adequate grass and small amounts of feed, although he was on a lot when in racing work as he was working hard, he was not the soundest but had raced from 4-10, won 9 so had a busy life, he had fun doing various competitions and was sadly pts after an accident. I think if he had not been put into a top training yard and run under rules after his 7 p2p wins he would have probably retired sound but he changed hands for a fairly large price, was pushed a bit too far and broke down, although he came back he had lost his enthusiasm so was retired then, maybe too late but his owners wanted to have one last try.

I think a small less successful, so put under less pressure, retired early NH horse could be a good buy for someone prepared to put in the time, his owner has said she will get another if she sells her current ride as she enjoyed the retraining and they are fairly easy to find if you have a few contacts, getting one straight from a trainers so you can speak to the staff about what they are really like is probably the best way to get them cheap, less risk is buying a retrained one but you will have to pay for the effort put in and may not find out the true history.
 
Frumpoon said:
Patter dale - I feel your pain, you have a really decent budget and speak a lot of sense. Could you possibly look again at the higher end of ex racers? I've got a lovely ex national hunt horse, broken late with jumps in mind, raced for 18 months then retired young. He loads, he hacks alone, he's clipped, he's good company, capable of jumping 1m 15 plus, should go novice eventing, if he wasn't an ex racer I dread to think how much he would have been but he's an absolute poppet
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Sorry just to clarify, mine isn't for sale, it was just an example of the quality that could be bought for very low 4 figures
 
I had an ex NH horse also. Never, ever had an issue with his weight, and he was nearly 17hh to boot. There were always several TB’s on the yard, P2Pers as well as retired leisure ones, and without exception they were all excellent doers.

Just adding my two penneth on TB’s ?
 
Bernster said:
Exactly that Cortez. Those sane safe types - folks often want to pay 3-5k max for them but there is so much value in having an easy hack who will look after the less experienced, or nervous, rider.
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They are worth their weight in gold. I've seen so many riders lose their confidence because they have unsuitable horses. For leisure riders - the primary purpose surely is fun??
 
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