Horse is very footy and don't know what to do

[tallyho!]

Agree with beesknees.

 

[cptrayes]

I am only speaking from experience but I think to believe that a change in diet would resolve the footiness is not considering the terrain I ride over - if I had been on the edge of dartmoor and didnt have to do the stoney tracks etc then he could have remained barefoot.

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Meesha there's no problem that your horses needed shoes but there are plenty of horses working very rugged terrain barefoot. If you look at the videos and photos of the hunters on Exmoor on the rockleyfarm.blogspot.com you will see half a dozen doing hundreds of miles a year. My own hunter has to gallop over farm tracks and gateways made of broken concrete and brick every Saturday in the season and I have stone tracks here in the Peak Park I ride on regularly with all three of mine, as does my friend with her four. Your horses could not manage it, but there are plenty who do. Terrain is not a limiting factor for all horses.

 

[Clava]

I am only speaking from experience but I think to believe that a change in diet would resolve the footiness is not considering the terrain I ride over - if I had been on the edge of dartmoor and didnt have to do the stoney tracks etc then he could have remained barefoot.

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What smooth moor tracks like these? http://vimeo.com/10374491

I live on the South Downs which is sharp flint tracks, if my tb has a diet issue she can't cope , but in the winter when there is little grass, she doesn't notice the flints. If the diet is right then it makes ALL the difference.

edit - cross posted with Cptrayes.

 

[amandap]

Time we bred horses born with shoes on then isn't it.

The breeding argument really frustrates me because it just lets us off looking harder at what we are doing to our horses and provides some justification for nailing to their hooves when these days it isn't necessary. There are some great boots now and as the demand rises so will their design continue to improve.
If horses need protection why not use boots that the horse doesn't have to wear 24/7 and if one comes off you don't need to wait for a farrier to put it back on.

The breeding argument also frustrates me because imo we haven't bred the hooves off horses we just haven't learned or made the collective effort to provide what they need to be healthy.
Rockley blogged about this aspect yesterday. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/04/horses-to-confound-all-stereotypes.html

ps. Second BeesKnees post.

Also, shoes do not protect thin soles, they just limit the horses feeling. Thin soles seem to be very common and are down to diet (and constant paring) and it takes a good long while of attention to diet for a horse to be able to grow thicker ones.

 

[Wagtail]

I hope you love her Wagtail , she sounds a bit daft and not a good example for a barefoot trimmer. In my opinion, a horse should not be left uncomfortable for weeks, never mind months or years .

Oh he has been in boots, pads, you name it. His feet are dressed and dusted, poulticed when needed, and cleaned daily. But the same old problems keep resurfacing. His soles are so thin you can actually push them in with your thumb. But in her eyes, shoeing is cruel. To be frank, I don't know enough about shoeing to say otherwise. I have certainly seen some convincing anti shoeing clips on you tube. But in my mind there are not too many TBs that can comfortably go without shoes. Certainly none of mine ever could.

 

[Flame_]

3. Footiness is not "suffering pain". If a horse treads on a stone and removes his foot quickly he is footie. But he has not been suffering pain, he removed his foot quickly to prevent himself from suffering pain. He's no more "suffering pain" than a shod horse who treads on a stone and removes his foot before it can damage him.

This is wrong. A sound horse feeling a stone will move his foot quickly and carry on sound. A footy horse treading on a stone carries on lame and over sensitive to all the stones. Horse's whose owners claim they are "just footy" IME are lame as hell, and are suffering pain whenever they are walking on their lame feet. Footiness is not OK or painless and it should always be addressed quickly.

 

[cptrayes]

Oh he has been in boots, pads, you name it. His feet are dressed and dusted, poulticed when needed, and cleaned daily. But the same old problems keep resurfacing. His soles are so thin you can actually push them in with your thumb. But in her eyes, shoeing is cruel.

Mmmm, like I say, not a good example for a qualified trimmer I think she needs him tested for Cushings and IR and, if not already done, a complete removal from grass (at least temporarily) and a mineral analysis of her forage if she wants him barefoot. I don't think most people would consider it acceptable to leave the shoes off a horse whose soles you can bend with your fingers unless it is improving daily.

 

[cptrayes]

This is wrong. A sound horse feeling a stone will move his foot quickly and carry on sound. A footy horse treading on a stone carries on lame and over sensitive to all the stones. Horse's whose owners claim they are "just footy" IME are lame as hell, and are suffering pain whenever they are walking on their lame feet. Footiness is not OK or painless and it should always be addressed quickly.

You are mistaking how I and many other people are using the term footy. The definition that you have given is your own, not mine. Maybe this accounts for why so many people get so up in arms when a barefooter says their horse is footy.

When my horses are footy, they are no more or less than any shod horse who feels a stone and removes his foot from it quickly. They do not continue lame, but it is enough warning for me that they reacted to the stone at all, to know that they need a diet tweak.

I realise that my definition means that many shod horses are footy all the time. Yup, they are, my first two barefooters were footy in shoes. My unshod horses do not normally react to stones at all, in fact I hear the stones shriek as they are ground into the road

I do not agree with riding horses who are wincing with every step they take and describing that as "footy". Those horses should be kept on surfaces where they are comfortable, booted or shod.

 

[Wagtail]

Mmmm, like I say, not a good example for a qualified trimmer I think she needs him tested for Cushings and IR and, if not already done, a complete removal from grass (at least temporarily) and a mineral analysis of her forage if she wants him barefoot. I don't think most people would consider it acceptable to leave the shoes off a horse whose soles you can bend with your fingers unless it is improving daily.

He is seven years old and bang on condition score 3 so doubt it is a metabolic thing. I agree he should be shod though! I will suggest a mineral analysis of his forage to her. I think though his main problem is that he was born with very poor feet. As I said, the rest of her horses are fine, never footy, and look splendid. I was just using this horse as an example of one that just cannot go comfortably barefoot.

 

[Nocturnal]

You are mistaking how I and many other people are using the term footy. The definition that you have given is your own, not mine. Maybe this accounts for why so many people get so up in arms when a barefooter says their horse is footy.

When my horses are footy, they are no more or less than any shod horse who feels a stone and removes his foot from it quickly. They do not continue lame, but it is enough warning for me that they reacted to the stone at all, to know that they need a diet tweak.

I realise that my definition means that many shod horses are footy all the time. Yup, they are, my first two barefooters were footy in shoes. My unshod horses do not normally react to stones at all, in fact I hear the stones shriek as they are ground into the road

I do not agree with riding horses who are wincing with every step they take and describing that as "footy". Those horses should be kept on surfaces where they are comfortable, booted or shod.

^This! I think a lot of people don't realise that for a barefooter, anything less than 100% rock crunching can be called footy. If a barefoot horse stepped on a stone and carried on lame then there's a big problem, and it's far more than just footiness.

 

[cptrayes]

He is seven years old and bang on condition score 3 so doubt it is a metabolic thing. I agree he should be shod though! I will suggest a mineral analysis of his forage to her. I think though his main problem is that he was born with very poor feet. As I said, the rest of her horses are fine, never footy, and look splendid. I was just using this horse as an example of one that just cannot go comfortably barefoot.

The metabolic things are very odd Wagtail. A friend of mine recently insisted that her vet do a Cushings test on her horse who was slightly footy when on a perfectly balanced diet. That was the only symptom. It came back positive, he is on a tiny dose of pergolide and I got told his story in the checks when we were hunting together. Early onset Cushings is becoming more commonly identified too.

 

[Flame_]

So some people would call a sound horse footy because it steps on a stone and does one little funny step to get its foot off it and remains otherwise totally sound with normal stride length, etc?

That is different to my experience.

 

[Goldenstar]

When you watch or are riding them you can feel and see the difference between 'perception footiness ' ( my name for it ) when they stand on a stone on the road and being footsore I have a horse six months in to being with out shoes and we have had a footsore episode I have seen with my own eyes round here barefoot horses being ridden extremely foot sore and it's just plain wrong that's the thing with barefoot ,shoeless or what ever you what to call it you have to be able to tailor the work to fit the feet ( at least that's my experiance on a study group of one horse)at least at first.
It's dangerous to blinkered about anything about horses ( that's not a reference to anyone posting just an general observation )
I also feel that many of these shoeing issues are being called by some bad farriers and thats the elephant in the room but we should not group all farriers with the bad ones or all barefooters with the mad ones.
Retires to bunker.

 

[cptrayes]

So some people would call a sound horse footy because it steps on a stone and does one little funny step to get its foot off it and remains otherwise totally sound with normal stride length, etc?

That is different to my experience.

When you watch or are riding them you can feel and see the difference between 'perception footiness ' ( my name for it ) when they stand on a stone on the road and being footsore I have a horse six months in to being with out shoes and we have had a footsore episode I have seen with my own eyes round here barefoot horses being ridden extremely foot sore and it's just plain wrong
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That's the problem with forums and so many arguments arise because people read a different meaning into a word.

I'm with you Goldenstar. These are my definitions. A horse which is footy has taken it's foot quickly off something which would otherwise hurt it. A horse which is footsore has sore feet all the time, whether it is stood on a stone or not. One is a warning sign, the other is, except for short periods while an adjustment is made somewhere, unacceptable.

 

[Nocturnal]

Imho there is a definite distinction between 'footy' and 'footsore'. A truly sound barefoot horse would not bother about stepping on a stone. A footy one would, but a footsore horse should not be made to walk on surfaces it is not comfortable on, and a horse should not be allowed to be footsore for long.

 

[JFTDWS]

I am not being obtuse. I do not think a survey would tell you anything meaningful at all.

We know already that more working horses are shod than barefoot.

Unlike you, I don't actually care how many horses are shod who don't need it

I do think it would be interesting to know exactly what proportions of horses in the UK are unshod/barefoot as opposed to those with shoes. It would certainly answer the original point of my post which was to debate whether "very few" was as inaccurate as you claim, despite the fact you have no evidence for it beyond the fact you claim to know a few yourself. You may not care, but personally I would find it interesting


Tallyho, why don't you do one? What is your problem?

 

[Wagtail]

The metabolic things are very odd Wagtail. A friend of mine recently insisted that her vet do a Cushings test on her horse who was slightly footy when on a perfectly balanced diet. That was the only symptom. It came back positive, he is on a tiny dose of pergolide and I got told his story in the checks when we were hunting together. Early onset Cushings is becoming more commonly identified too.

I quite agree. However, with this horse, his thin soles are the reason why he is so footy. It is a plain and simple conformational problem, just like sickle hocks or long pasterns. The pasture is not at all rich, it is ideal Welsh mountain wild pasture. Of course that means it is very undulating and rocky. So horse with thin soles, coupled with rocky mountain pasture, and you have a footy horse. The horses are fed very little other than half a scoop of Pure feeds Easy, cinnamon and magnesium, once a day.

 

[amandap]

Imho there is a definite distinction between 'footy' and 'footsore'. A truly sound barefoot horse would not bother about stepping on a stone. A footy one would, but a footsore horse should not be made to walk on surfaces it is not comfortable on, and a horse should not be allowed to be footsore for long.

I'm not sure about this. I think it depends on the stone. I do think we can be a little unrealisitic about a horse choosing not to put weight on some big pointy stones and that a horse should always fly over every surface. Have a look at about 1.40 in this vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD7G_LKlt0w the horse clearly feels the stone and chooses to not put weight on it but this horse is seemingly not one that would be described as footy or sore. Horses will also naturally protect themselves by slowing on uncertain ground be that stoney, slippy with mud etc. it is us who expect them to carry on regardless and shoe and add studs etc. so they don't slip.

I do 100% agree horses should not be forced when sore or truly footie and should be worked where they are comfortable if they are up to work. I read a good point recently about the quality of gait being a good indicator of footyness.

ps. the vid is of the extreme end of the barefoot spectrum.

 

[Littlelegs]

I've never really experienced the full barefoot route, I have had horses either shod or not under farriers recommendation, so i'm not informed enough to get into a full discussion one way or the other. But just from general experience,a footsore horse is one that is sore in its feet. Footy to me is as said already, one that quickly removes its foot from a stone etc. My shoeless mare will quickly remove her foot from a stone, but next step is fine, therefore footy. If she was still sore after, or stepped uncomfortably on normal surfaces, she'd be footsore.
The other thing that I'd like to say, is before my teens, a horse that was footsore with spring grass was immediately treated as possible lami, not a review of shod or unshod. With experience,i learnt that magnesiumiis a useful supplement for helping this. I'm no foot expert but it strikes me as odd that if I have picked up that diet can create foot issues, pro barefootersare dismissed as fanatics & weird for suggesting the same. Like I say, I know little about barefoot but anyone beyond beginner stage should realise diet affects feet, not dismiss it as a pro barefoot myth.

 

[amandap]

I quite agree. However, with this horse, his thin soles are the reason why he is so footy. It is a plain and simple conformational problem, just like sickle hocks or long pasterns.

I don't agree that thin soles are a conformational 'fault' myself. I am willing to be proved wrong but I suspect there will be a metabolic or dietary problem such as cptrayes has pointed out.

Horses with thin soles imo shouldn't go anywhere near rocks or stones without sole protection as they are at huge risk of bruising/abscessing which will only delay further any chance of growing a thicker sole.

 

[Wagtail]

I don't agree that thin soles are a conformational 'fault' myself. I am willing to be proved wrong but I suspect there will be a metabolic or dietary problem such as cptrayes has pointed out.

Horses with thin soles imo shouldn't go anywhere near rocks or stones without sole protection as they are at huge risk of bruising/abscessing which will only delay further any chance of growing a thicker sole.

I have to disagree. Some horses just have poor feet, thin soles etc. It is not always a dietry problem. Sometimes it is, of course, but when six horses all have perfect hard thick soles, and are never footy, and are on exactly the same regime for the same amount of time as the thin soled horse, I think it can safely be said that it is not down to dietry factors.

I don't think anyone, however expert would be able to get this horse comfortable barefoot, given the same terrain.

 

[cptrayes]

I quite agree. However, with this horse, his thin soles are the reason why he is so footy. It is a plain and simple conformational problem, just like sickle hocks or long pasterns. The pasture is not at all rich, it is ideal Welsh mountain wild pasture. Of course that means it is very undulating and rocky. So horse with thin soles, coupled with rocky mountain pasture, and you have a footy horse. The horses are fed very little other than half a scoop of Pure feeds Easy, cinnamon and magnesium, once a day.

Wagtail some horses can't cope with any grass at all, no matter how horse-safe it is. Until she takes that horse off the grass altogether she'll never know how thick its soles might become. If she did that and it still had thin soles I would agree that it's conformational, but at the moment I doubt it. Meanwhile, she should shoe, we all agree on that!

 

[cptrayes]

I have to disagree. Some horses just have poor feet, thin soles etc. It is not always a dietry problem. Sometimes it is, of course, but when six horses all have perfect hard thick soles, and are never footy, and are on exactly the same regime for the same amount of time as the thin soled horse, I think it can safely be said that it is not down to dietry factors.

This just isn't that easy Wagtail. I have three horses on the same regime. One could be out full time and be sound. One has to be off grass during the day to be sound on stones. One has to be watched extremely carefully even off the grass during the day. Three horses, same regime, different outcomes.

 

[Wagtail]

Wagtail some horses can't cope with any grass at all, no matter how horse-safe it is. Until she takes that horse off the grass altogether she'll never know how thick its soles might become. If she did that and it still had thin soles I would agree that it's conformational, but at the moment I doubt it. Meanwhile, she should shoe, we all agree on that!

I know some horses cannot cope with any grass. But why can't you accept that some horses just have poor feet? I have very weak finger nails. I cannot grow them, I do not bite them. I have tried every supplement/dietry option going as well as topical applications. Nothing works. I still have weak nails. My parents both have weak nails too. It is a conformational fault.

 

[amandap]

I have to disagree. Some horses just have poor feet, thin soles etc. It is not always a dietry problem. Sometimes it is, of course, but when six horses all have perfect hard thick soles, and are never footy, and are on exactly the same regime for the same amount of time as the thin soled horse, I think it can safely be said that it is not down to dietry factors.

I don't think anyone, however expert would be able to get this horse comfortable barefoot, given the same terrain.

I agree to disagree.
Horses are very individual and the fact that only one has thin soles leads me suspect to a metabolic or similar issue in that horse.
I only have one laminitic but they all ate the same diet prior to her first bout. There may well be an element of genetics as to why only she developed laminitis but I have to manage her diet very strictly to prevent another acute episode. Some of the others did display symptoms of lower level laminitis though...

 

[Wagtail]

I agree to disagree.
Horses are very individual and the fact that only one has thin soles leads me suspect to a metabolic or similar issue in that horse.
I only have one laminitic but they all ate the same diet prior to her first bout. There may well be an element of genetics as to why only she developed laminitis but I have to manage her diet very strictly to prevent another acute episode. Some of the others did display symptoms of lower level laminitis though...

Laminitis is very different to having thin soles. I completely agree, that if this horse was suffering bouts of laminitis, that there would be an obvious metabolic factor at work.

 

[cptrayes]

Unlike you, I don't actually care how many horses are shod who don't need it

I do think it would be interesting to know exactly what proportions of horses in the UK are unshod/barefoot as opposed to those with shoes. It would certainly answer the original point of my post which was to debate whether "very few" was as inaccurate as you claim, despite the fact you have no evidence for it beyond the fact you claim to know a few yourself. You may not care, but personally I would find it interesting


Default Re: Horse is very footy and don't know what to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptrayes View Post
I am not being obtuse. I do not think a survey would tell you anything meaningful at all.

We know already that more working horses are shod than barefoot.
Unlike you, I don't actually care how many horses are shod who don't need it

I do think it would be interesting to know exactly what proportions of horses in the UK are unshod/barefoot as opposed to those with shoes. It would certainly answer the original point of my post which was to debate whether "very few" was as inaccurate as you claim, despite the fact you have no evidence for it beyond the fact you claim to know a few yourself. You may not care, but personally I would find it interesting


Tallyho, why don't you do one? What is your problem?

I note with interest that you don't care one iota that there are owners paying £800 a year to have their horses shod when they don't need shoes. Or that a small proportion of those horses who never needed shoes in the first place will go on to develop foot or joint problems caused by those shoes. I do.

Why do you want to know what proportion of working horses have shoes on?

What information do you think it will it give you that you don't already know?

"Very few" is not a proportion, it's an absolute. There are plenty of working barefoot horses even though they are, at the moment, a small proportion of the total working horses. Your survey will not change that, why are you so hung up whether "very few" is an accurate description?

You are the one who wants the answer, not Tallyho. So it's you who should do the research, and Tallyho has no problem, so why the attack?

 

[cptrayes]

I know some horses cannot cope with any grass. But why can't you accept that some horses just have poor feet?

I can . I do. Some Connemara ponies, for example, have a genetic defect which splits their feet apart. The specific gene has recently been identified.

But I will not accept that the one horse that you are talking about is one of those horses until a grass free and very low sugar diet has been tried with him, because my own experience is that the vast majority of horses who "just cannot manage without shoes" can manage fine on that regime. Has your sister even tried turning him out only at night? That works fine for most.

It is very disturbing to hear of a qualified trimmer behaving like your sister, it causes problems for us all

 

[cptrayes]

Laminitis is very different to having thin soles. I completely agree, that if this horse was suffering bouts of laminitis, that there would be an obvious metabolic factor at work.

Insulin resistance can cause either or both.

 

[Wagtail]

I can .

But I will not accept that the one horse that you are talking about is one of those horses until a grass free and very low sugar diet has been tried with him, because my own experience is that the vast majority of horses who "just cannot manage without shoes" can manage fine on that regime. Has your sister even tried turning him out only at night? That works fine for most.

During the winter they do not go out on the grass and she feeds late cut soaked hay (as one of the herd is a 12.2 Welsh section B that is prone to laminitis) pure feeds easy with added cinnamon and magnesium oxide. They have free run of a huge concreted yard, massive American barn and sand turnout area. The horse's soles have never improved during this time.